This system is designed to fit the Lansing extrusions, so we can do a small pPad with 3"-4" screen using their 2.5" extrusions, or
a larger 7"-9" pPad with two side by side rails of 2.5" in their large extrusion designed for boards ~5.25" wide
I need to break some bad news: ARM Cortex or ARM-9 is the processor you should use. I greatly admire Bill Henning, but Prop I just doesn't have the guts.
Maybe Prop II (in the year 2020).
Please prove me wrong!
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JMH
Post Edited (Mike Huselton) : 3/24/2010 9:08:09 AM GMT
I am currently evaluating some LCD samples that I received last week, and I will probably be importing and selling them soon:
A) 7" 480x234 TFT panel, with separate analog board which has a simple RCA video in and requires 12VDC
Initial impressions:
- Very nice NTSC display! 40x30 color text is quite readable on it, however obviously it is not as sharp as VGA displays
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
- I may be able to get a version with S-Video input in a couple of months, the manufacturer is currently working on a new analog board rev to support it
7" 800x480 TFT panel, with separate analog board featuring VGA, S-Video and Video inputs
Initial impressions:
- I think I have a winner here. Looks GREAT! I still have to do S-Video testing, and a custom 800x480 driver for Morpheus, but I love this display
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
- driven by an 800x480 driver, it would do VERY well for displaying high resolution text.
- Using an 8x12 font it could do 100x40 landscape, or 60x66 portrait mode
- using a 6x12 font, it could do 133x40 landscape, or 80x66 portrait mode (eBook mode <grin>)
C) 5" 640x480 TFT panel, with separate analog board featuring VGA, S-Video and Video inputs
Initial impressions:
- Same TFT display I have already been selling
- newer analog board, adds support for S-Video (which I will test shortly)
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
D) 3.5" 320x240 TFT panel, with separate analog board featuring S-Video and Video inputs
Initial impressions:
- Fantastic little NTSC display! 40x30 color text is the best I've seen from any 3.5" video based monitor, however obviously it is not as sharp as VGA displays
- I can't wait to test the S-Video on it!
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
In all cases, I can supply both USB and serial touch panel controllers, but they are a bit expensive. I am working on that problem [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I hope to evaluate the S-Video capabilities soon, but I need to find a high resolution text driver with S-Video support. I'd love to try 40, 53, 64 and 80 column text, in various foreground/background combinations on the above displays (only up to 53 character/line on the 3.5" display)
I hesitate to post pricing for these panels at this time, because I have not evaluated S-Video performance yet. My industrial clients are VERY pleased with my pricing, which is significantly below what Digikey, Mouser, FutureElectronics etc. charge for identical or almost identical LCD panels and analog boards. Please send a PM or email to the address in my sig (and on my site) if you would like a quote, and please indicate the display type, quantity and your snail mail location.
Tubular said...
Bill, how did you go with the 7"? How thick would it be including the driving board if any?
This system is designed to fit the Lansing extrusions, so we can do a small pPad with 3"-4" screen using their 2.5" extrusions, or
a larger 7"-9" pPad with two side by side rails of 2.5" in their large extrusion designed for boards ~5.25" wide
I agree, and ARM would be faster at computing... but I would not rule out Prop1 yet [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Remember the old "3M" workstation standard... 1MIP (check, even with XLMM), 1Mpixels (we can cheat and go 800x480, 4 color), 1MB ram (easy for Morpheus)
Those Morpheus users who have tried my 800x600 4 colors per scan line (from palette of 256 colors) can attest that the text output is pretty damn fast - and I am rendering an 8x12 font onto the external 480KB frame buffer while reading it at 20MB/sec bursts to refresh the screen!
The upcoming 800x480 driver should be at least 20% faster due to less time needed for screen refresh!
Mike Huselton said...
Hanno,
I need to break some bad news: ARM Cortex or ARM-9 is the processor you should use. I greatly admire Bill Henning, but Prop I just doesn't have the guts.
I hear rumors that the 64pin prop isn't a dead project..
Perhaps something like that could be used to supply the required external memory for pPad.
It's gotta be more than a just a circuit board though.. I want something I can take out on the plane without freaking people out.
(Or being tazered by air marshals) It's gotta have a "consumer friendly" look for those uninitiated around me.
(Another plug for creating something that might fit existing cheap casings like gameboy, etc.)
PLCC84 would be my package of choice [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Oldbitcollector said...
I hear rumors that the 64pin prop isn't a dead project..
Perhaps something like that could be used to supply the required external memory for pPad.
It's gotta be more than a just a circuit board though.. I want something I can take out on the plane without freaking people out.
(Or being tazered by air marshals) It's gotta have a "consumer friendly" look for those uninitiated around me.
(Another plug for creating something that might fit existing cheap casings like gameboy, etc.)
OBC we gotta get to the bottom of them there rumors, because the extra i/o pins would instantly solve the two major bottlenecks (driving TFTs and External Memory). I second Bill's PLCC84 as being very hobby friendly, but fear the world has moved on. Frankly any package would do
As for casing I'm going with tazer proof AL extrusion. From previous experience its cheap enough if you purchase by the yard and cut to size with a drop saw. But I'm still waiting on final pricing
Oldbitcollector said...
I hear rumors that the 64pin prop isn't a dead project..
Perhaps something like that could be used to supply the required external memory for pPad.
It's gotta be more than a just a circuit board though.. I want something I can take out on the plane without freaking people out.
(Or being tazered by air marshals) It's gotta have a "consumer friendly" look for those uninitiated around me.
Given the low cost of a Cortex-M3 chip, it's definitely feasable to use both, with a high-bitrate serial? link between the two... like a Chamelion board with teeth. [noparse];)[/noparse]
IIRC Ken G was quite open when discussing the issues (technical and economic) that were preventing a DoppelProp from becoming a reality.
I believe the landscape has changed somewhat since then, pin count is a burning issue (TFTs, EMIF) that has sometimes been solved with a second (or third!) prop, but it's hardly an elegant or commercially attractive solution.
Seems to me, Prop I could do a lot, if it had a larger memory. TV resolution, with zoom, pan, scroll is comparable to smart phones, and the prop can easily do those things.
Why not have code that renders easy to display data to the SD card*, then display it? It won't be as fast as just doing it on the fly, but a lot more kinds of things could be rendered that way, freeing up HUB memory for bitmap displays, and or high character density text.
I would also suggest using a non-reference video output. A prop running in VGA mode, using a different resistor ladder, could output a nice set of greys, or colors (those are timing intensive though) making good use of a portable display.
The other nice thing about this is being able to swap in some capability, say network, then capture data, then swap it out, render, and manipulate the display, via the touch screen. This would enforce a strong modal operation, but that's not all bad. On one hand, it's not as dynamic as the cool devices are, but on the other, it's dead simple to use.
A final thing that occurs to me is a large SD card could cache already rendered things, much like the "save page as" function in browsers and other programs do. Once something has been fetched, and the user finds it useful, simply cache it for rapid access and display.
Operating this way sharply reduces the real time load on the prop, allowing it to focus on something, get it done, and present it's strength of versatility, on a small component count.
Edit: I have a small iPod nano (the fatter one), that I have crammed full of notes. Getting them in there means fetching data, rendering it to iPod note format, then loading it up. Once there, it's quite useful and I use it regularly. Sysadmin command line tricks, technical data, and novels are a few of the things I keep on a pod. A device like this, with a good form factor, could be very similar.
*or some other device, perhaps in tandem, for video purposes.
Hey guys... Reality check. If you want more that a Prop I with 64 pins then it will not be the Prop IB, it will be PropII.
So if you want Prop IB (a 64 I/O Prop I) there will be no other extras since this has been completed. If you want it as is then say so. DO NOT ask for extra features - that will be the Prop II and only detracts from what is mooted.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Links to other interesting threads:
You're correct, and SD is has vast storage and portability for just 4 pins. The approach you outline is similar to how I hope to rotate/render and scroll web pages, and I've done a similar thing using 4D's screens (scrolling vertically from SD) and the speed/smoothness is acceptable. Fortunately basic web browsing lends itself well to one-function-at-a-time sequencing.
Cluso: I really did hesitate when making that comment earlier. Have edited it out in the interests of keeping on topic.
If a Prop1b shows up, Mikronauts will make and market products based on it as long as it is not a 0.5mm pitch SMT (ie at least one of the offered packages is 1mm or greater pitch). I've started working with SMT, and I now have no problem hand soldering .05" (1.27mm) pitch parts, and I strongly suspect I could manage 1mm pitch parts, whereas my hands and eyes are definitely not up to 0.5mm. I'd still prefer PLCC84... much easier for education and for servicing industrial equipment in the field.
As a matter of fact, I'd start designing products as soon as I had a definitive pinout and footprint (Proteus strongly preferred).
I would actually prefer if there were no other changes than implementing INB/DIRB/OUTB.
Is that a strong enough statement of support?
Cluso99 said...
Sorry this thread has been hijacked...
Hey guys... Reality check. If you want more that a Prop I with 64 pins then it will not be the Prop IB, it will be PropII.
So if you want Prop IB (a 64 I/O Prop I) there will be no other extras since this has been completed. If you want it as is then say so. DO NOT ask for extra features - that will be the Prop II and only detracts from what is mooted.
Comments
I've posted one possible solution for open source hardware to drive the pPad here -
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=892799
This system is designed to fit the Lansing extrusions, so we can do a small pPad with 3"-4" screen using their 2.5" extrusions, or
a larger 7"-9" pPad with two side by side rails of 2.5" in their large extrusion designed for boards ~5.25" wide
cheers
tubular
I need to break some bad news: ARM Cortex or ARM-9 is the processor you should use. I greatly admire Bill Henning, but Prop I just doesn't have the guts.
Maybe Prop II (in the year 2020).
Please prove me wrong!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
JMH
Post Edited (Mike Huselton) : 3/24/2010 9:08:09 AM GMT
I am currently evaluating some LCD samples that I received last week, and I will probably be importing and selling them soon:
A) 7" 480x234 TFT panel, with separate analog board which has a simple RCA video in and requires 12VDC
Initial impressions:
- Very nice NTSC display! 40x30 color text is quite readable on it, however obviously it is not as sharp as VGA displays
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
- I may be able to get a version with S-Video input in a couple of months, the manufacturer is currently working on a new analog board rev to support it
Initial impressions:
- I think I have a winner here. Looks GREAT! I still have to do S-Video testing, and a custom 800x480 driver for Morpheus, but I love this display
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
- driven by an 800x480 driver, it would do VERY well for displaying high resolution text.
- Using an 8x12 font it could do 100x40 landscape, or 60x66 portrait mode
- using a 6x12 font, it could do 133x40 landscape, or 80x66 portrait mode (eBook mode <grin>)
C) 5" 640x480 TFT panel, with separate analog board featuring VGA, S-Video and Video inputs
Initial impressions:
- Same TFT display I have already been selling
- newer analog board, adds support for S-Video (which I will test shortly)
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
D) 3.5" 320x240 TFT panel, with separate analog board featuring S-Video and Video inputs
Initial impressions:
- Fantastic little NTSC display! 40x30 color text is the best I've seen from any 3.5" video based monitor, however obviously it is not as sharp as VGA displays
- I can't wait to test the S-Video on it!
- I can get an optional 4 wire resistive touch panel for it
In all cases, I can supply both USB and serial touch panel controllers, but they are a bit expensive. I am working on that problem [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I hope to evaluate the S-Video capabilities soon, but I need to find a high resolution text driver with S-Video support. I'd love to try 40, 53, 64 and 80 column text, in various foreground/background combinations on the above displays (only up to 53 character/line on the 3.5" display)
I hesitate to post pricing for these panels at this time, because I have not evaluated S-Video performance yet. My industrial clients are VERY pleased with my pricing, which is significantly below what Digikey, Mouser, FutureElectronics etc. charge for identical or almost identical LCD panels and analog boards. Please send a PM or email to the address in my sig (and on my site) if you would like a quote, and please indicate the display type, quantity and your snail mail location.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheus dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory/IO kit $89.95, both kits $189.95 SerPlug $9.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 3/24/2010 8:32:52 PM GMT
I agree, and ARM would be faster at computing... but I would not rule out Prop1 yet [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Remember the old "3M" workstation standard... 1MIP (check, even with XLMM), 1Mpixels (we can cheat and go 800x480, 4 color), 1MB ram (easy for Morpheus)
Those Morpheus users who have tried my 800x600 4 colors per scan line (from palette of 256 colors) can attest that the text output is pretty damn fast - and I am rendering an 8x12 font onto the external 480KB frame buffer while reading it at 20MB/sec bursts to refresh the screen!
The upcoming 800x480 driver should be at least 20% faster due to less time needed for screen refresh!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheus dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory/IO kit $89.95, both kits $189.95 SerPlug $9.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
Perhaps something like that could be used to supply the required external memory for pPad.
It's gotta be more than a just a circuit board though.. I want something I can take out on the plane without freaking people out.
(Or being tazered by air marshals) It's gotta have a "consumer friendly" look for those uninitiated around me.
(Another plug for creating something that might fit existing cheap casings like gameboy, etc.)
OBC
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Are you Propeller Powered? PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
oh the things I could do with a working PortB...
PLCC84 would be my package of choice [noparse]:)[/noparse]
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheus dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory/IO kit $89.95, both kits $189.95 SerPlug $9.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
As for casing I'm going with tazer proof AL extrusion. From previous experience its cheap enough if you purchase by the yard and cut to size with a drop saw. But I'm still waiting on final pricing
option
cheers
tubular
How about a nice, soft, squishy Chumby?
I ordered two 5 inch displays from Bill, and I can attest to the very high quality of the displays. 7 inch would be super-duper!
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JMH
Post Edited (Mike Huselton) : 3/25/2010 5:59:14 AM GMT
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
Perhaps we can get Ken G weigh in on this and give us and update.
OBC
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Are you Propeller Powered? PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
I believe the landscape has changed somewhat since then, pin count is a burning issue (TFTs, EMIF) that has sometimes been solved with a second (or third!) prop, but it's hardly an elegant or commercially attractive solution.
(edited out OT comment)
Post Edited (Tubular) : 3/26/2010 6:32:39 AM GMT
Why not have code that renders easy to display data to the SD card*, then display it? It won't be as fast as just doing it on the fly, but a lot more kinds of things could be rendered that way, freeing up HUB memory for bitmap displays, and or high character density text.
I would also suggest using a non-reference video output. A prop running in VGA mode, using a different resistor ladder, could output a nice set of greys, or colors (those are timing intensive though) making good use of a portable display.
The other nice thing about this is being able to swap in some capability, say network, then capture data, then swap it out, render, and manipulate the display, via the touch screen. This would enforce a strong modal operation, but that's not all bad. On one hand, it's not as dynamic as the cool devices are, but on the other, it's dead simple to use.
A final thing that occurs to me is a large SD card could cache already rendered things, much like the "save page as" function in browsers and other programs do. Once something has been fetched, and the user finds it useful, simply cache it for rapid access and display.
Operating this way sharply reduces the real time load on the prop, allowing it to focus on something, get it done, and present it's strength of versatility, on a small component count.
Edit: I have a small iPod nano (the fatter one), that I have crammed full of notes. Getting them in there means fetching data, rendering it to iPod note format, then loading it up. Once there, it's quite useful and I use it regularly. Sysadmin command line tricks, technical data, and novels are a few of the things I keep on a pod. A device like this, with a good form factor, could be very similar.
*or some other device, perhaps in tandem, for video purposes.
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
8x8 color 80 Column NTSC Text Object
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
Post Edited (potatohead) : 3/26/2010 3:41:13 AM GMT
Hey guys... Reality check. If you want more that a Prop I with 64 pins then it will not be the Prop IB, it will be PropII.
So if you want Prop IB (a 64 I/O Prop I) there will be no other extras since this has been completed. If you want it as is then say so. DO NOT ask for extra features - that will be the Prop II and only detracts from what is mooted.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
You're correct, and SD is has vast storage and portability for just 4 pins. The approach you outline is similar to how I hope to rotate/render and scroll web pages, and I've done a similar thing using 4D's screens (scrolling vertically from SD) and the speed/smoothness is acceptable. Fortunately basic web browsing lends itself well to one-function-at-a-time sequencing.
Cluso: I really did hesitate when making that comment earlier. Have edited it out in the interests of keeping on topic.
If a Prop1b shows up, Mikronauts will make and market products based on it as long as it is not a 0.5mm pitch SMT (ie at least one of the offered packages is 1mm or greater pitch). I've started working with SMT, and I now have no problem hand soldering .05" (1.27mm) pitch parts, and I strongly suspect I could manage 1mm pitch parts, whereas my hands and eyes are definitely not up to 0.5mm. I'd still prefer PLCC84... much easier for education and for servicing industrial equipment in the field.
As a matter of fact, I'd start designing products as soon as I had a definitive pinout and footprint (Proteus strongly preferred).
I would actually prefer if there were no other changes than implementing INB/DIRB/OUTB.
Is that a strong enough statement of support?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheus dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory/IO kit $89.95, both kits $189.95 SerPlug $9.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 3/26/2010 6:19:27 PM GMT