Propeller 3 Unofficial Wishlist

Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
edited 2010-01-29 - 18:07:23 in Propeller 1
After reading OBC's posting at http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=875762, I could not resist starting this thread.

My suggestions:

1) 64 bit cogs!

With 64 bit instructions, the 32 bits would easily allow adding 7 more bits to SRC and DST, for up to 64K 64 bit COG locations, and still leave 18 bits for other goodies.

2) 16 cogs

3) 1MB of hub memory, organized as 128K x 64

4) cogs have a 64 bit read and a 64 bit write register to their two "nearest" neighbours, ideally with 16 word FIFO's

Instruction set changes:

addition of RDXLONG / WRXLONG

addition of C{RD|WR}{LONG|WORD|BYTE} for reading/writing bytes, words, longs within the new 64 bit cog registers

one of the new extra instruction bits could be used to sign extend the new sixteen bit constants

architecture changes:

changing video, counter etc circuits to be 64 bit wide - waitvid then could take four 16 bit pixels / eight 8 bit pixels per location

ofcourse fast SPI-like modes for input and output, and addition of Manchester coding to allow at least 100BaseT

Ok, guys, your turn. Serious suggestions only please!

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Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 1/28/2010 7:10:23 PM GMT
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Comments

  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,090
    edited 2010-01-28 - 19:31:50
    This is soooo wrong... [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    OBC

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  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-01-28 - 19:32:24
    Oh, gee, Prop2 not even out yet and now starting on the Prop3!!! Come on!! Use the prop 1, dream about the Prop2, forget about the Prop3. When Chip sees this thread he'll pass out. smile.gif

    P.S. I won my bet that Prop 3 threads would be out before the Prop 2 was!! smile.gif

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  • StefanL38StefanL38 Posts: 2,287
    edited 2010-01-28 - 19:44:52
    hm Bill,

    as a work-around in the meantime:

    how about one of these industrial PC104-x486-boards and writing an prop-emulator for it?? ::--)))

    best regards

    Stefan
    [x] <== SLAM in nail here to hook up the new screen! :lol:
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 22,476
    edited 2010-01-28 - 19:49:27
    My wish list for the Prop3:

    1. Don't even start thinking about it until we have a complete, professional tool chain and exhaustive docs for Props I and II.

    Okay, I guess that's it: just the one item. smile.gif

    -Phil

    Update: I nearly forgot, for fans of South Park:

    2. ?
    3. Profit!
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-01-28 - 19:49:46
    Good suggestion, but there are a couple of problems with it:

    1) even a 486DX-100 would not be able to emulate a single cog at full speed

    2) even the newest quad core, SMT, i9xx series 3GHz+ processors would not be able to emulate a Prop II with deterministic timing; heck, they could not even fully emulate a single cogs video and timer circuitry accurately!

    A realistic emulation would be a stack of very large, very fast FPGA boards.
    StefanL38 said...
    hm Bill,

    as a work-around in the meantime:

    how about one of these industrial PC104-x486-boards and writing an prop-emulator for it?? ::--)))

    best regards

    Stefan
    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
    Morpheus dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory/IO kit $89.95, both kits $189.95 SerPlug $9.95
    Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
    Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
    www.mikronauts.com / E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com / @Mikronauts on Twitter
    RoboPi: The most advanced Robot controller for the Raspberry Pi (Propeller based)
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-01-28 - 19:57:51
    A PIC?!?!?!? WHAT KIND OF PROPELLER ATHEIST ARE YOU?!?!? freaked.gif wink.gif

    How can you think that a PIC can emulate a Prop?!? That's like expecting a bug to act like a human! smile.gif

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    Post Edited (microcontrolled) : 1/28/2010 8:02:13 PM GMT
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  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,115
    edited 2010-01-28 - 20:29:08
    My fantasy list:
    64-bit
    built in floating point (at the PASM level)
    256X floating point PLL! (up to 1.28GHz)
    Why not bump it to 32 cogs? Each cog with 2048 longs, group the cogs in the groups of eight. Each group has it's own shared memory, and then all four groups has a large portion of RAM it can access. So like L1/L2 cache and SDRAM!
    We are looking at 41GigaFLOPS @64-bit!
    8 counters per cog.
    256 I/O pins
    Use memristors for all the nonvolatile memory
    I think we could fit this into the Pentium 3 style package.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
    "Humanity is not yet sufficiently advanced to be willingly led by the discoverer's keen searching sense." – Nikola Tesla

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Propeller-based Database (SPD-LW) - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    Check out my website (unrelated to this forum): NimonPro.com
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,294
    edited 2010-01-28 - 20:38:04
    It should come with a pony.
  • NuTtY_Pr0fFeSs0RNuTtY_Pr0fFeSs0R Posts: 5
    edited 2010-01-28 - 21:58:44
    We are connecting 3 chips thus far and using EEPROM in parallel to give #1 input info, which then work with #2 & #3 to push output info/ work.· The communication is working, with reset buttons between for program loading (so they can get it at the same time) and still work independently
  • NuTtY_Pr0fFeSs0RNuTtY_Pr0fFeSs0R Posts: 5
    edited 2010-01-28 - 21:59:45
    and yes it should come with a pony
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-01-28 - 23:32:04
    My fantasy list:
    256-bit(we might as well think big)
    built in floating point (at the PASM level) - i agree entirely
    256X floating point PLL! - also a must have
    Why not bump it to 64 cogs? Each cog with 2M longs, group the cogs in the groups of eight. Each group has it's own shared memory(say 2G long), and then all 8 groups has a large portion of RAM it can access(2TLong).

    Internal 16GHz crystal

    We are looking at 8.2Tera FLOPS @ 256 bit
    8 counters per cog.
    512 I/O pins(port a and port b)
    Use memristors for all the nonvolatile memory
    Would have to make the silicone in 3D but I beleive this would be the most powerful procsser on earth and 200 of these in parallel would be the most powerful computer on earth.

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  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,115
    edited 2010-01-28 - 23:38:41
    mctrivia said...
    My fantasy list:
    256-bit(we might as well think big)
    built in floating point (at the PASM level) - i agree entirely
    256X floating point PLL! - also a must have
    Why not bump it to 64 cogs? Each cog with 2M longs, group the cogs in the groups of eight. Each group has it's own shared memory(say 2G long), and then all 8 groups has a large portion of RAM it can access(2TLong).

    Internal 16GHz crystal

    We are looking at 8.2Tera FLOPS @ 256 bit
    8 counters per cog.
    512 I/O pins(port a and port b)
    Use memristors for all the nonvolatile memory
    Would have to make the silicone in 3D but I beleive this would be the most powerful procsser on earth and 200 of these in parallel would be the most powerful computer on earth.
    But I won't pay more than $7.99 for it!

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
    "Humanity is not yet sufficiently advanced to be willingly led by the discoverer's keen searching sense." – Nikola Tesla

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Propeller-based Database (SPD-LW) - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    Check out my website (unrelated to this forum): NimonPro.com
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-01-28 - 23:41:21
    i would pay $99.99 for that feature list. We can pay $7.99 for the slow Prop 2.

    I am serious. That would be one super hot chip to play with. Cooling it would not be fun though.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.

    If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,090
    edited 2010-01-29 - 00:30:32
    microcontrolled said...

    How can you think that a PIC can emulate a Prop?!? That's like expecting a bug to act like a human! smile.gif

    LOL! There are times I shouldn't read this forum! Like when I've got a mouthful of Dr. Pepper!
    Had to clean up my screen!

    OBC

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    New to the Propeller?

    Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
    <br>
  • ClintClint Posts: 95
    edited 2010-01-29 - 00:41:45
    Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said...
    My wish list for the Prop3:

    1. Don't even start thinking about it until we have a complete, professional tool chain and exhaustive docs for Props I and II.
    2. ?
    3. Profit!
    LOL

    Thanks for the laugh. lol.gif
  • AribaAriba Posts: 2,212
    edited 2010-01-29 - 01:04:40
    My wishlist for a third Propeller version:

    - 4 cogs
    - 16 kByte HubRam
    - 20 Pins (~15 IOs)
    - integrated Flash Program Memory
    - integrated ADCs
    - for 2.99$

    And this is serious. I wish this much more than a Super Propeller.

    Andy
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-01-29 - 01:32:21
    @OBC: Yea! A pretty good comparison, I'd say..... Now don't get me started..... smile.gif
    Propnpic.png
    Ha Ha! (Don't worry, I'll stop stealing the thread here, but as you can see from my avatar, I don't like PICs.smile.gif )

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    Robots are microcontrolled.
    I am microcontrolled.

    SX Spinning light display·

    http://designedbymemicros.blogspot.com/
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  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2010-01-29 - 01:49:40
    mctrivia said...

    Would have to make the silicone in 3D

    Pamela Anderson already has this feature.

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    wtf?
  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2010-01-29 - 01:53:16
    microcontrolled said...
    Ha Ha! (Don't worry, I'll stop stealing the thread here, but as you can see from my avatar, I don't like PICs.smile.gif )

    People fear what they don't understand.

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    Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
    wtf?
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,549
    edited 2010-01-29 - 02:06:48
    OBC: I seriously thought about your comment. BUT, my imagination got the better of me cry.gif Sorry.

    Now let's think about this rationally... LOL

    It's 2010 and it will take at least 5 years for the Prop III. Intel currently has 1 billion transistors on a chip, so using Moore's Law, we will be at 8 billion transistors. But Parallax will not have access to this latest technology, so let us presume it can place 1 billion transistors on a chip.

    An on-chip xtal can be accurately trimmed with internal flash and the chip will run up to 1GHz. Each cog cycle is 1 instruction. There is an inbuilt RTC which can operate from a 1,000uF electrolytic for weeks without external components except the capacitor. A much smaller capacitor can be used for days.

    IIRC ram takes 6 transistors per bit, so let us use half of the chip for ram --> 500,000,000 / 6 / 8 = 10MBytes so let us say 8MB to be sure

    So let us have 4MB of hub ram and 4MB total cog ram. Also, we have 1MB of internal flash and 1MB of boot ROM.

    Now let us be greedy with those other 0.5 billion transistors and have 256 I/O's all with ADC & DAC, etc. Also a much improved counter/video etc circuit per cog - we will have thought about all those things we cannot do with the fantastic Prop II counters by then.

    And of course we all want a LOT of cogs now we know how to use them for all sorts of things in the Prop II. Of course it must be 64 bit RISC. So addressing in the cog is not an issue for Prop III.

    Now, we want 64 cogs, but at 4MB that would only give us 1,000 instructions at 64 bits for a total of 64KB per cog.

    But we are much smarter now and we have organised our cogs in groups of 4, so we can steal blocks of 16KB from adjacent cogs. This means we can have 3 dwarf cogs with 16KB and 1 super cog with 208KB (>3,000 instructions) or only 1 super-plus cog (with no dwarf cogs) with access to the whole 256KB and the 4 counter/video circuits. The dwarf cogs can relinquish their hub slots to improve hub access for the super cogs (as all cogs can communicate via 256 x 64 bit registers shared between all cogs). This means we can have only 16 super cogs competing for hub access. Optional priority hub access is allowed for super cogs. Optional unused hub cycle access is allowed for dwarf cogs (only gains access if a super cog does not require the cycle, otherwise it waits for a free hub cycle).

    Of course, any cog can act as a·buffer/fifo cog for any/all other cogs. It communicates with the other cogs via 256 x64 bit shared registers and hub ram as a normal/super/dwarf cog.

    Oh, and one last thing - we need to lock Chip from reading this thread until the Prop II is done (sorry Chip) nono.gif

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  • SeariderSearider Posts: 290
    edited 2010-01-29 - 02:11:55
    Oldbitcollector said...
    microcontrolled said...

    How can you think that a PIC can emulate a Prop?!? That's like expecting a bug to act like a human! smile.gif

    LOL! There are times I shouldn't read this forum! Like when I've got a mouthful of Dr. Pepper!
    Had to clean up my screen!

    OBC

    I think we have a new abbreviation here. SDOM· (Spewing Drink on Monitor)

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    Searider
    -Hobbyist-
    Michael Boswell
    "Searider"

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  • wjsteelewjsteele Posts: 697
    edited 2010-01-29 - 02:20:22
    Ok... we need 1024 Cogs... 128 Bits... 1tb of HUB Ram... 256meg Cog Ram running at 8ghz.

    What's that you say... wait til the Prop IV???

    tongue.gif
    Actually, I'd just settle for a Prop II right now. Ken/Chip... you hearing this? hop.gif We're getting antsy here!

    Bill
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-01-29 - 02:35:21
    They've heard it from more then just you.

    @BradC: What?

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    Computers are microcontrolled.

    Robots are microcontrolled.
    I am microcontrolled.

    SX Spinning light display·

    http://designedbymemicros.blogspot.com/
    Projects, tutorials, and more! http://microcontrolled.com/
  • Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL) Posts: 1,550
    edited 2010-01-29 - 02:55:54
    Good timing . I was working on a Prop idea a last week. lol.gif
    ==============================================================
    From the Sandbox Post : http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=874883


    Posted 1/22/2010 4:06 PM (GMT -4) Edit post
    The ultra-small revolution has begun with the invention of a new laser that will allow light to be used on a computer chip. Assoc. Professor David Moss, a senior researcher at the University of Sydney, leads an international team which has developed a multiple wavelength laser on a silicon chip that produces light to process and transmit information, and in doing so will speed up computing.

    "The on-chip light source will be key to enabling the simultaneous transmission of multiple data channels either on-chip or between chips in a single optical fibre, each at a different wavelength," says Moss, adding that this technology will ultimately provide the consumer with cheaper and faster computers.

    Complete Article:
    www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20102201-20527.html


    Looks like Prop 2 is a dinosaur already but Prop 3 should interesting.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,392
    edited 2010-01-29 - 03:06:54
    With the exception of Ariba I can't help but wonder what the rest of you ingested, inhaled, or absorbed by some other means. I must admit though that they were some great fantasies.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 2,684
    edited 2010-01-29 - 03:43:29
    The stuff you guys want for the Prop 3 are kind of crazy. Be careful what you are asking for, because you maynot realize the consequences.

    Typically the more complex and advanced processes you use on the inside of the chip the more complex the external circuitry needs to be to support that chip. Isn't this supposed to be a MCU? Something people can use on simple boards they design themselves?

    The Prop 2 as I understand it runs on 1.8v for the core and 3.3v for the i/o pins. So already it's more stuff you have to deal with when making a project with it. Going to the extremes you guys want in the Prop 3 could lead to things like they have to do on PC motherbaords now where there is a big portion of the board just there to deliver all the different power needs and dynamically adjust it.

    I know I'm being kind of downer here, but I think it would be more interesting to think about things that could realistically be done in an MCU that can still be utilized by hobby folks.

    Also, until we actually get a Prop 2, how can we even know what can't be done on it and thus have new features to wish for in a Prop 3?

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  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-01-29 - 11:18:45
    I was thinking ultra-prop:

    * Internals suspended in space
    * most parts have no physical matter
    * interface moves in free space
    * multi-hyper dimensional but in curved space
    * does time travel
    * sections nano-bot based
    * can double as a transporter
    * faster than a speeding supercomputer
    * more powerful than a locomotive
    * more memory than a truck load of TBs
    * a transformer - one package transforms from SIP to DIP to SMT to ...
    * ultra low cost (free if you make a domain project with it)
    * programs in ULTRA (Utra easy, ultra simple, ultra small learning curve, ultra fast, ultra efficient...)
    * uses the configurable Hyper-Cog (exponential to n^n cogs)
    * ULP driven - ultra low power, runs on room ambient light
    * has internal matter/antimatter drive to run centuries at a time
    * doubles as a Dilithium crystal for star ship warp drives
    * high density (contains alternate universes occupying the same space)

    Did I miss anything?

    humanoido

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/29/2010 11:23:14 AM GMT
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,392
    edited 2010-01-29 - 13:21:32
    @humanido re "Did I miss anything"

    * Anti gravity generator so we can leap tall buildings in a single bound.
    * Connections to dilithium/matter/antimatter drive to power external hardware (house, car, aircar, etc.)
    * Replicator function added to transporter so it can self replicate as well as producing other needs (Tea, Earl Grey, hot)
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-01-29 - 18:07:23
    You forgot:

    * Automatic silicon creation so that it can make an infinite amount of other chips, including itself, that appear if you load in the replication program and set it under your pillow overnight. When you wake up the next morning you will find a MAX3232 or whatever you wanted under there along with the original chip. You won't even need to program in the part number, because it will read your brainwaves.

    * No I/O pins, you just set it on your desk and you can control any electronic componant or device within 10 feet, all with just a few line of code and an infinate number of controllable devices.

    * Because of it's brain-reading capability it will program itself by reading what you want it to do from your brain. This will allow any Joe off the street to program this chip, and Parallax will get rich at the same time hobbyists will be disregarded.

    * And I almost forgot: the ability to transform into a spaceship.

    P.S. Bill won't like the direction this thread has taken..... smile.gif

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    Computers are microcontrolled.

    Robots are microcontrolled.
    I am microcontrolled.

    SX Spinning light display·

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    Projects, tutorials, and more! http://microcontrolled.com/
  • I've just sniffed the OnSemi website. Their SP110 process seems to be a good candidate for the next Propeller chip, and their SP65 process even more so. I think it would be possible to implement USB2 and DDR/DDR2, and it would be actually interesting.

    Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
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