eiplanner said...
Humanoido, I'm hearing you, but I think you are starting in the wrong place. The magnificent ideas you have for warping the circuit boards in such a manner to accommodate a specific supercomputer array of prop chips is sort of like making the wagon faster and more durable when there are already more highly advanced automobiles in the world. The designs you are considering will no doubt be incorporated someday at the silicon or crystal level. The will be put into form on a microscopic plane and not so much the large component level that you are speaking of.
I also hear you. First I want to thank you for your input regarding this project. Undoubtedly the ideas can be used within the well-visioned structures you cite. I simply create these projects as a hobby and for fun, and may never have access to the expensive technological subnano level manufacturing processes you speak of. Working on much larger scales enables everyone to enjoy and create and have fun with some of these concepts, now, and on a shoestring budget I might add. Your analogy is an interesting one. I agree, there was a time when there were only wagons. It was then, someone came along and invented Boolean Algebra, the basis of every modern day computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Boole said...
George Boole (2 November 1815 – 8 December 1864) was an English mathematician and philosopher. As the inventor of Boolean logic—the basis of modern digital computer logic—Boole is regarded in hindsight as a founder of the field of computer science.
Enough said. I suppose I took the original post too seriously. From a hobby perspective, it is a fantastically fun and creative project.
Browsing through some of your other projects (Basic Stamp Supercomputers), I now see exactly where you are coming from with this idea.
I was amazed with your work and wanted to start on one of my own immediately. I am light years behind you and most others on this site,
but thank you for the inspiration!
Back on topic. In considering a new design and seeing your already completed stamp towers, I was wondering if you chose the spacing
of the boards on purpose or if that was just to match the standoffs you used? It seems to me that by using individuals stamps without the boards,
you could mount them side by side 3 across and two down to get 6 chips on a board close to 3" square. Stack 3 of these boards with .75" spacing
and an additional 4th board on top with the serial ports for communications at the same spacing to achieve 18 stamps in a 3" cube. Copper tubing
could be used as power buses vertically through the boards. Right angle headers could line the outside edges of the boards for access to all the I/O's.
Other than possibly creating a more aesthetically interesting design, the stamps own footprint would limit gaining much more close proximity even
with morphing the boards.
Ooops! I used the stamps in my post instead of the Prop. Can't figure out how to edit and change. Had the stamps on the brain from
viewing the stamp towers and got off on a tangent. My example should work pretty close to the same with the Props as well.
That soccer ball pattern clicked in my mind as resembling the genetic code Rafiki model for visualizing information in a CODON. As you can see, there is a pattern of genetic identifiers, and the model can be created by cutting and folding the pattern in 3D. Likewise, this is similar to GEODESIC patterns in some astronomical observatory domes.
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/2/2010 11:27:08 PM GMT
There are others, but not all are as easy to visualize or reproduce in a PCB form. For example, "Cyclic permutations of nucleotide triplets are the basic informative structure within the molecular system of protein synthesis. The Rafiki map is useful because it unifies all visualization techniques through a mathematically unbiased contextual network of cyclic permutations. To begin a process of visualizing information, consider a simple street map of your hometown. It is laid out on flat paper, but our razor-sharp human intelligence quickly understands that the shapes on the paper translate into a three-dimensional town of much greater size. ‘Mapping’ is a process of correlating two versions of informative reality. It is a form of code.
It is only slightly tougher to imagine that the orthogonal, two-dimensional information on a map is merely a subset of a vastly larger set of information on the surface of a sphere. Our street map is but a tiny window into a surface that wraps around a gigantic sphere – the earth. The fact that this information is scaled down, cut into a square and flattened onto a plane is of no concern whatsoever. The useful information the map contains is hardly affected by such transformations. However, the same cannot be said of the genetic code and protein synthesis. Transformations here are all important, if only to recognize that they have occurred in our textbooks and our thinking."
In the Rafiki model, each pentogram can hold five Propeller chips. Since there are twelve pentagrams, a total of sixty prop chips can fit onto this three dimensional printed circuit board. There is a formula construction to vary the parameters, thus the physical dynamics of the chip can be made to fit each pentagram. The design, while representative of a curved surface, contains flats which can be etched using conventional low cost copper clad technology, then formed as pieces of a puzzle to transform from 2D to 3D. The geodesic would follow a similar transform.
Variations on a Theme
Geodesic Star Dome Example
For higher densities
In the second illustration, below, the geodesic concept is expanded to created six primary pentagrams with twenty bisecting divisions resulting in a three dimensional printed circuit board to hold a total of 120 Propeller chips.
Construction is proceeding with a design that places the Propeller chips on the outside in sockets. I felt this was best since there are ways to piggyback prop chips, doubling the circuit board density at only a slightly larger (few percent) diameter of the board. I am not so sure that the terminology "board" applies here since we are now dealing with the diameter of an inscribed/circumscribed sphere. But indeed, subfacets are still boards, easy to make and relatively easy to mount.
Piggyback
The technique of Piggyback will turn the 60 piece board into a 120 prop board with 960 cores, while the 120 propeller board transforms into 240 chips with 1,920 cores. Can you think of some uses for 1,920 cores?
Humanoido,
I'll start by staying that I may be missing the point and may be speaking beyond what is currently do able. If you are looking for a curved form as you originally asked for, it may be able to be generated out of a fiber type material. I am thinking something like fiberglass or carbon composite. Then plate and etch the necessary circuit pattern. I'm not sure if that is realistic or not. I also don't know the cost, how the components would be attached to a non-flat surface, and your budget. Just a thought.
RobertW: This is certainly on the point. In car body modeling technology, a foam core form is typically constructed and the fiberglass is built up on top. It would be a matter of forming the core, which is one process key, to some desired differential curve. I have formed fiberglass spherical domes, differential curves, and resin telescope tubes of various cylindrical sizes so there is some familiarity with this procedure. What would be even more interesting is the method to deposit a layer of copper onto the fiberglass for etching in a large deep tank. Attaching components depends on the shape of the component, the depth of the pins, and the position in the curve differential. For this design, the solution enlists the use of long pinned wire wrap sockets that easily traverse the various curve depths. This allows the geometrically longer DIP Propeller chip a means of simple and economical connection.
Humanoido,
What is the approximate size of the curved form you are looking for? Depending on the size, someone could turn your form on a lathe, creating a mandrel which the 'PCB' material could be deposited on. I don't know how PCBs are currently plated but you could probably find a way. You might be able to then use the mandrel and PCB assembly to laser etch the traces into the copper layer. If possible, this would elimiate the need to create a pattern and chemical etch the traces. Just a thought. Again, I don't know the physical size of the project nor the budget.
RobertW: the size is directly proportional to the number of Propeller chips in the circuit. I'm sure a newer prototype is going to use a small number of chips, maybe less than 10, with the second proto less than 50, and the main model increasingly larger. The original concept was done with a handful of BASIC Stamps. An intermediate POC was constructed with Penguin Robots because the BS2px has increasing line capabilities and you can do just about anything with a Penguin kit. Now the project is moved forward with Propellers for MIPS reasons and other potentials.
As an update, I have "kitchen shopped" and found additional cheap low cost material forms (preformed) that can be used for the project. This is the budget range of the project. One thought about laser etching, is that the projection of trace is literally projected onto the curve. Mathematically, there is a shape consideration when doing so. The ideal plan would be to rotate the laser with the same formula as the curve, thus positioning without any "parallax positional" effects. So this would introduce some complexity and require special machinery. The question that still remains, is there a simple technique to coat plastic and gain significant adherence.
I have no idea how fancy geometry like this would actually benefit the performance of the Propeller, however... the propeller is a "Supercomputer" on a chip given the technology that some of us grew up with, ( what would the Apollo program have given for a couple of (space hardened) Propellers ? )
We have already seen that looking back to technology concepts that worked in the "early days" has it's place even here in the future. The propeller itself is a "Throwback" to some of those ideas. I have little doubt that "everything old is new again" will keep coming around ad infinitum.
I introduced a friend to the propeller the other day, he is doing research in optical computing where geometry DOES play an important role in performance, funny thing, after a brief explanation of some of the optical computing concepts, it dawned on me that he was building and analog computer with a digital front end. If analog computers can make a comeback, then I have little doubt that computers shaped like soccer balls, hypercubes or Kline bottles can have their place in "The brave new world".
As for flexible circuits, I have to agree with some of the other people out there that unless movement is actually necessary, then some shape ( possibly the hex) where the edges can be easily soldered together will probably make the most sense. I have used this same concept to build 3D circuit boards (for placement of optical sensors, not performance). However, if someone out there TRULY needs flexible circuitry, I work with medical silicone and am currently doing research into embedding circuitry into highly flexible shapes. If you have a project with a real need, let's talk.
Another manufacturing option to consider is ceramic or glass. I have built circuitry on everyday, run of mill ceramic tiles by using gold and silver decorative inks that fire into conductive traces. Once on the ceramic substrate, you can plate copper or nickel onto these traces to increase current capacity and solderability. The only reason to consider this is for heat or mechanical stability. However, GLASS has another interesting possibility: Optical clarity. If you have circuitry in layers with interconnects, you can send data back and forth using traditional methods but Glass (or clear plastic) opens up the possibility of communicating optically between layers or even ACROSS layers, ( think of the soccer ball with concentric layers on top of each other ) Lasers or even simple LED's could be used to communicate optically. Lasers to link to specific processors, Led's to "Broadcast" to all processors within view.
If you make alternate "Panes" of the soccer ball optical shutters ( LCD screens ) This architecture begins to resemble the three dimensional interconnects of the brain and nuro-networks operating very similar to their biological counterparts. It becomes possible to inhibit or pass messages between layers as gated by each layers programming. You can use some of the other interesting properties of light to take this concept one stage further. Light and dark are of course digital, but SHADES of light and dark begin to open up analog computing possibilities. The next stage is use of COLOR. Transmission of data optically makes it possible to add color as part of the address scheme. Some computers in the network might have BLUE filters that pass only BLUE light to each other, some Green, red, etc. This begins to warp the three dimensional space into 4 or 5 dimensional communications and computation ability.
I have to admit... when I first started reading this link I was in agreement with some of the other comments about the real world need of building circuitry with 3D shapes, but when you couple it with some "out of the box" or more appropriate: " Off the 2d surface" thinking, it begins to make sense.
Places like this forum are where ideas with world changing potential are going to be given their first breath of life. It is places like this that we HAVE to be able to throw out ideas that may seem really screwball at first. I have to give humanoido credit for taking the comments in stride.
Ok... here's one: Let's use Jello as the circuit substrate! It's optically transparent, flexible, additions of impurities might allow "Growing" conductive pathways. It may be possible to manipulate interconnections or even move circuitry while in operation. All us 2d Von Neumann types will eventually have to learn to think in different ways and gee... everything old is new again... Mother nature has been experimenting with this one for a while now.
KB.
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" Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "
KenBash: lots of interesting things in your remarkable post. Now you have me thinking about jello. If you take out some of the basic ingredients of jello, such as the sugar and coloring, that leaves a gelatin and water mix, and the protein-rich collagen derivatives. I can see there would be complete control over the density of the jello substrate as well as regulation of the light transmissive properties, and some growth potential.
Gelatin is obtainable in small packets for experimentation. The substrate could hold a new kind of pathway. This could be a "suspension circuit path," embedded in the substrate, in some multiple dimension fashion. I can imagine there might be a variety of ways to create processes to not only embed circuits but mold various curvatures, all inexpensively. Thinking out of the box again, the pathways would not be conductive of electricity, but rather contain light tunneling, resembling the methods of transmission and reception through fiber optics.
You could curve the jello like the curvature of the Universe to form worm-holes for faster access to other points in space-time curvature. The advantage here is not only the access time, but the fact that the curvatures can hold a higher density of individual Propeller chips, up on the curve, on its "underbelly," or even inside the invisible borderlines. Here's the formula to get started... recipes.howstuffworks.com/question557.htm
Jell-O consists of four basic ingredients:
1. gelatin
2. water
3. sugar or artificial sweetener and artificial flavors
4. food coloring
The Snub-Cube polyhedron is another shape possibility for a three dimensional circuit board, with left and right handed versions. With proportional scaling, it can host 38 Propeller chips. Traces run along polyhedron surfaces, obverses, or embed within the substrate. The site below provides images for creating a model.
All this Origami is so simular to my "xxxBlade" comment of, as we have had the cigarette packet, the matchbox the next cardboard receptical (entering the curved world) will have to be a bog roll centre.
And dont go putting all those props onto all those pentagrams. All that power may well surcome to the darker forces.
Yes I am bored at work, again. It has been snowing again, more than 4 flakes, NATIONAL DISASTER !!!!!
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Style and grace : Nil point
Like removing the sugar and colored flavorings... removing the name "Jello" and calling it a "Colloidal Suspension" ups the "respectability a bit (probably would look better on a grant proposal as well ) but the idea of liquids associated with electronics isn't as far-fetched as what some may think. Batteries have been with us for a while in different forms, different chemical makeups. Some capacitors, and probably a few other things I haven't heard of also make use of "Wet" materials. Some computers have been submersed in non-conductive liquids for cooling. Laser cavities are often cooled with distilled water. There is even a patent out there for a dye laser made from something pretty close to Jello.
Most of us are familiar with liquid crystals... ( LCD ) who's to say that the properties of a JLS (Jello Like Substance) won't be useful to create the next generation of processors.
There are chips out there that are essentially phased array microwave generators. By steering the beams of two or more chips, the energy at the intersections might become sufficient melt Jello, Lasers are another obvious possibility. It is entirely feasible to consider melting tunnels in the JLS to create 3D pipes. Using UV cure plastics with impurities is another possibility for systems that "Grow" interconnects, lasers, light gates and even new transistors in place according to their "Learning". I most certainly won't be doing it, but some bright little colloidal processor is out there right now being programmed who will.
KB
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" Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "
Exactly right, stick with the posh names for everything and funding will be assured. A friend, at Cardiff Uni at the time, wanted a new kettle and washing up bowl for the workshop. This was rejected immediately, so the waited a few days and requested a low preasure steam generator and a medium pnumatic trough. Instant approval and with the higher value of the new purchace order a curry and a few pints were had.
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Style and grace : Nil point
your 3d board would probably work well if you were designing an optical computer where the computing is done optically but the delay to convert data to light and back again on such a macro system would destroy any advantages of distance.
As for density. I compute on a 6.2" radius sphere I could place aproximently 450 props with optical comunication. max signal distance 24"
A 10"x10"10" cube has the same volume and I can place 4012 props in a 12 dimensional hyper cube. max signal length 20"
The hyper cube has more processing power and shorter signal length.
On a 18" radius sphere i could get the same 4012 props but now with max signal length of 72"
mctrivia said...
your 3d board would probably work well if you were designing an optical computer where the computing is done optically but the delay to convert data to light and back again on such a macro system would destroy any advantages of distance.
Excellent point. It is true that a computer design which is both optical and the more base electrical requires some time for the transformation. However, there are other considerations in the overall net that provide advantages, that speed up access times. If a computer can be accessed faster, it may even outweigh the speed of conversion.
mctrivia said...
As for density. I compute on a 6.2" radius sphere I could place aproximently 450 props with optical comunication. max signal distance 24".
A 10"x10"10" cube has the same volume and I can place 4012 props in a 12 dimensional hyper cube. max signal length 20"
The hyper cube has more processing power and shorter signal length.
On a 18" radius sphere i could get the same 4012 props but now with max signal length of 72"
This is very useful to gain ideas about prop density based on shape and spherical diameters. On these calculations, how are the props mounted? I have found that although inscribed props of high density are theoretically possible, in actual practice a method of access is required, at least at the hobby level. The means we need a little more space to make the connections.
The first 3D Board
Models will shed some light on the subject. I am now experimenting with the first model - a 29 centimeter Chinese Edo Coscinodiscus construct in multiple dimensions (3D space = x, y, z, plus time). It is relatively easy to inscribe props, making exterior curved connections, or by "light wiring" inside the Coscinodiscus. E-Do in China provides home articles made by Fujian Nanan Xinyuan Plastic Co., Ltd. (I was not joking about shopping for kitchen supplies to keep the cost down) The last two shelf stocked perforated polymer screening shapes were purchased for about a dollar and 30 cents each, in the kitchen section of Merry Mart. The model is based on microscopic marine diatoms such as Coscinodiscus Wailesii Gran & Angst. It is interesting to find this by shopping the kitchen section of a common store. It's one example of a great technological find, that can be used for alternate applications.
This is my first esoteric 3D Propeller Proto Board using a polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic dimensional perforated model. The first 9 props are shown, though the Proto can inscribe more than 30 DIPs in the first layer. SMT can triple or quadruple this number per layer. DIP processors are used because they are easy to handle and readily illustrate the concept. Applications developed for this shape are primarily optical, i.e, internally it is wired with light, and externally it can be wired with multi-dimensional conductive pathways.
humanoido said...
Any suggestions for a name? Every time I call the board 3D, someone thinks it has something to do with graphics and 3D glasses and imaging...
Post edited. My mother always said if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything.. so I'm saying nothing [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Interesting concept.. can you make it work?
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
BradC said...
My mother always said if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything.. so I'm saying nothing [noparse]:)[/noparse] Interesting concept.. can you make it work?
It was an earlier post where I mentioned there is a working model already built from BASIC Stamps. I think the important aspect in this project, re: Propeller chip conversions, will be continued translation of PBASIC language into SPIN while utilizing advantageous features of each Prop chip in the aggregate. There is definitely a timing differential. The Forum is happy that your Mother taught you values, but really Brad, it is only a simple request for some possible names for the board, nothing really complicated, and it should bring about visions of constructive ideas and not those of destruction. [noparse]:)[/noparse] I think the "Esoteric 3D Multiple-Propeller Chip Proto Board using Polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic Dimensional Perforated Model" could have the name of "Dimensional Board - DB" as one possibility, or just use the full name for funding, as specified by Toby.
humanoido said...
but really Brad, it is only a simple request for some possible names for the board, nothing really complicated, and it should bring about visions of constructive ideas and not those of destruction.
Indeed. I apologise.. I should know better than to post on a public forum when I'm in one of those moods.. I shall now crawl back into my cave.
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
BradC: Just so you know, we're glad you're here with us and contributing ideas from the technical side of your brain, although I suspect there's a great deal of science equipment in The Cave... There are two new name suggestions that just arrived.
An update to the Esoteric 3D Multiple-Propeller-Chip Proto Board using Polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic Dimensional Perforated Model, a duplicate "unit" was added to the bottom (thus dual-diatomic modeling) using temporary plastic clips, doubling the real estate. The existing board became the top. I wanted to do an experiment to know if the "alternate addition" would have the same capability to communicate inside the curved dimension. What I find is that there are two conditions - a clear line of internal optical sight to enable double density, exterior surface area for electrical conductive pathways (and with both, the ability to communicate with all props), so this system also works too! This increases two DIP chip layers from 70 Props into four layers with 140 Props yielding 1,120 cores. In actuality, there is a position of oblate spheroidal concentration near the poles that was not considered for population. I'm sure this could could add a couple Props. Not a large number for this polar addition but every little bit helps.
I have another question. When we create printed circuit boards, we use a computer program that helps make the traces onto the top and bottom sides of a printed circuit board. When the board is completed, the traces are conductive and the components are added.
In the multiple dimensional board in this project, I need a different kind of program to figure out the board - one that can draw and show ray traces at any angle in, around, and outside a dimensional shape. That's because there are multiple rays for aiming, focusing and bending, hundreds or thousands of times. The program should be simple and not complicated, i.e. a learning curve of months is out of the question. The program should be freeware. Perhaps someone has experiences with such a program...
Comments
You are very lucky that you did not[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Enough said. I suppose I took the original post too seriously. From a hobby perspective, it is a fantastically fun and creative project.
Browsing through some of your other projects (Basic Stamp Supercomputers), I now see exactly where you are coming from with this idea.
I was amazed with your work and wanted to start on one of my own immediately. I am light years behind you and most others on this site,
but thank you for the inspiration!
Back on topic. In considering a new design and seeing your already completed stamp towers, I was wondering if you chose the spacing
of the boards on purpose or if that was just to match the standoffs you used? It seems to me that by using individuals stamps without the boards,
you could mount them side by side 3 across and two down to get 6 chips on a board close to 3" square. Stack 3 of these boards with .75" spacing
and an additional 4th board on top with the serial ports for communications at the same spacing to achieve 18 stamps in a 3" cube. Copper tubing
could be used as power buses vertically through the boards. Right angle headers could line the outside edges of the boards for access to all the I/O's.
Other than possibly creating a more aesthetically interesting design, the stamps own footprint would limit gaining much more close proximity even
with morphing the boards.
viewing the stamp towers and got off on a tangent. My example should work pretty close to the same with the Props as well.
Sorry...
use the soccer ball pattern and you get a near round pbc
Very interesting......I hadn't thought of that.
How did you get the pattern?
James L
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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits. Learn to build your own Gizmos!
Follow the image link back to its origin...
-Phil
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/2/2010 11:27:08 PM GMT
It is only slightly tougher to imagine that the orthogonal, two-dimensional information on a map is merely a subset of a vastly larger set of information on the surface of a sphere. Our street map is but a tiny window into a surface that wraps around a gigantic sphere – the earth. The fact that this information is scaled down, cut into a square and flattened onto a plane is of no concern whatsoever. The useful information the map contains is hardly affected by such transformations. However, the same cannot be said of the genetic code and protein synthesis. Transformations here are all important, if only to recognize that they have occurred in our textbooks and our thinking."
Variations on a Theme
Geodesic Star Dome Example
For higher densities
In the second illustration, below, the geodesic concept is expanded to created six primary pentagrams with twenty bisecting divisions resulting in a three dimensional printed circuit board to hold a total of 120 Propeller chips.
Construction is proceeding with a design that places the Propeller chips on the outside in sockets. I felt this was best since there are ways to piggyback prop chips, doubling the circuit board density at only a slightly larger (few percent) diameter of the board. I am not so sure that the terminology "board" applies here since we are now dealing with the diameter of an inscribed/circumscribed sphere. But indeed, subfacets are still boards, easy to make and relatively easy to mount.
Piggyback
The technique of Piggyback will turn the 60 piece board into a 120 prop board with 960 cores, while the 120 propeller board transforms into 240 chips with 1,920 cores. Can you think of some uses for 1,920 cores?
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/3/2010 4:38:27 AM GMT
I'll start by staying that I may be missing the point and may be speaking beyond what is currently do able. If you are looking for a curved form as you originally asked for, it may be able to be generated out of a fiber type material. I am thinking something like fiberglass or carbon composite. Then plate and etch the necessary circuit pattern. I'm not sure if that is realistic or not. I also don't know the cost, how the components would be attached to a non-flat surface, and your budget. Just a thought.
What is the approximate size of the curved form you are looking for? Depending on the size, someone could turn your form on a lathe, creating a mandrel which the 'PCB' material could be deposited on. I don't know how PCBs are currently plated but you could probably find a way. You might be able to then use the mandrel and PCB assembly to laser etch the traces into the copper layer. If possible, this would elimiate the need to create a pattern and chemical etch the traces. Just a thought. Again, I don't know the physical size of the project nor the budget.
As an update, I have "kitchen shopped" and found additional cheap low cost material forms (preformed) that can be used for the project. This is the budget range of the project. One thought about laser etching, is that the projection of trace is literally projected onto the curve. Mathematically, there is a shape consideration when doing so. The ideal plan would be to rotate the laser with the same formula as the curve, thus positioning without any "parallax positional" effects. So this would introduce some complexity and require special machinery. The question that still remains, is there a simple technique to coat plastic and gain significant adherence.
We have already seen that looking back to technology concepts that worked in the "early days" has it's place even here in the future. The propeller itself is a "Throwback" to some of those ideas. I have little doubt that "everything old is new again" will keep coming around ad infinitum.
I introduced a friend to the propeller the other day, he is doing research in optical computing where geometry DOES play an important role in performance, funny thing, after a brief explanation of some of the optical computing concepts, it dawned on me that he was building and analog computer with a digital front end. If analog computers can make a comeback, then I have little doubt that computers shaped like soccer balls, hypercubes or Kline bottles can have their place in "The brave new world".
As for flexible circuits, I have to agree with some of the other people out there that unless movement is actually necessary, then some shape ( possibly the hex) where the edges can be easily soldered together will probably make the most sense. I have used this same concept to build 3D circuit boards (for placement of optical sensors, not performance). However, if someone out there TRULY needs flexible circuitry, I work with medical silicone and am currently doing research into embedding circuitry into highly flexible shapes. If you have a project with a real need, let's talk.
Another manufacturing option to consider is ceramic or glass. I have built circuitry on everyday, run of mill ceramic tiles by using gold and silver decorative inks that fire into conductive traces. Once on the ceramic substrate, you can plate copper or nickel onto these traces to increase current capacity and solderability. The only reason to consider this is for heat or mechanical stability. However, GLASS has another interesting possibility: Optical clarity. If you have circuitry in layers with interconnects, you can send data back and forth using traditional methods but Glass (or clear plastic) opens up the possibility of communicating optically between layers or even ACROSS layers, ( think of the soccer ball with concentric layers on top of each other ) Lasers or even simple LED's could be used to communicate optically. Lasers to link to specific processors, Led's to "Broadcast" to all processors within view.
If you make alternate "Panes" of the soccer ball optical shutters ( LCD screens ) This architecture begins to resemble the three dimensional interconnects of the brain and nuro-networks operating very similar to their biological counterparts. It becomes possible to inhibit or pass messages between layers as gated by each layers programming. You can use some of the other interesting properties of light to take this concept one stage further. Light and dark are of course digital, but SHADES of light and dark begin to open up analog computing possibilities. The next stage is use of COLOR. Transmission of data optically makes it possible to add color as part of the address scheme. Some computers in the network might have BLUE filters that pass only BLUE light to each other, some Green, red, etc. This begins to warp the three dimensional space into 4 or 5 dimensional communications and computation ability.
I have to admit... when I first started reading this link I was in agreement with some of the other comments about the real world need of building circuitry with 3D shapes, but when you couple it with some "out of the box" or more appropriate: " Off the 2d surface" thinking, it begins to make sense.
Places like this forum are where ideas with world changing potential are going to be given their first breath of life. It is places like this that we HAVE to be able to throw out ideas that may seem really screwball at first. I have to give humanoido credit for taking the comments in stride.
Ok... here's one: Let's use Jello as the circuit substrate! It's optically transparent, flexible, additions of impurities might allow "Growing" conductive pathways. It may be possible to manipulate interconnections or even move circuitry while in operation. All us 2d Von Neumann types will eventually have to learn to think in different ways and gee... everything old is new again... Mother nature has been experimenting with this one for a while now.
KB.
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" Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "
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Gelatin is obtainable in small packets for experimentation. The substrate could hold a new kind of pathway. This could be a "suspension circuit path," embedded in the substrate, in some multiple dimension fashion. I can imagine there might be a variety of ways to create processes to not only embed circuits but mold various curvatures, all inexpensively. Thinking out of the box again, the pathways would not be conductive of electricity, but rather contain light tunneling, resembling the methods of transmission and reception through fiber optics.
You could curve the jello like the curvature of the Universe to form worm-holes for faster access to other points in space-time curvature. The advantage here is not only the access time, but the fact that the curvatures can hold a higher density of individual Propeller chips, up on the curve, on its "underbelly," or even inside the invisible borderlines. Here's the formula to get started... recipes.howstuffworks.com/question557.htm
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/6/2010 5:36:01 AM GMT
www.korthalsaltes.com/model.php?name_en=snub%20cube
Snub Cube:
Number of faces: 38
Number of edges: 60
Number of vertices: 24
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/6/2010 6:35:34 AM GMT
And dont go putting all those props onto all those pentagrams. All that power may well surcome to the darker forces.
Yes I am bored at work, again. It has been snowing again, more than 4 flakes, NATIONAL DISASTER !!!!!
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Style and grace : Nil point
Like removing the sugar and colored flavorings... removing the name "Jello" and calling it a "Colloidal Suspension" ups the "respectability a bit (probably would look better on a grant proposal as well ) but the idea of liquids associated with electronics isn't as far-fetched as what some may think. Batteries have been with us for a while in different forms, different chemical makeups. Some capacitors, and probably a few other things I haven't heard of also make use of "Wet" materials. Some computers have been submersed in non-conductive liquids for cooling. Laser cavities are often cooled with distilled water. There is even a patent out there for a dye laser made from something pretty close to Jello.
Most of us are familiar with liquid crystals... ( LCD ) who's to say that the properties of a JLS (Jello Like Substance) won't be useful to create the next generation of processors.
There are chips out there that are essentially phased array microwave generators. By steering the beams of two or more chips, the energy at the intersections might become sufficient melt Jello, Lasers are another obvious possibility. It is entirely feasible to consider melting tunnels in the JLS to create 3D pipes. Using UV cure plastics with impurities is another possibility for systems that "Grow" interconnects, lasers, light gates and even new transistors in place according to their "Learning". I most certainly won't be doing it, but some bright little colloidal processor is out there right now being programmed who will.
KB
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" Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "
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Style and grace : Nil point
As for density. I compute on a 6.2" radius sphere I could place aproximently 450 props with optical comunication. max signal distance 24"
A 10"x10"10" cube has the same volume and I can place 4012 props in a 12 dimensional hyper cube. max signal length 20"
The hyper cube has more processing power and shorter signal length.
On a 18" radius sphere i could get the same 4012 props but now with max signal length of 72"
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
This is very useful to gain ideas about prop density based on shape and spherical diameters. On these calculations, how are the props mounted? I have found that although inscribed props of high density are theoretically possible, in actual practice a method of access is required, at least at the hobby level. The means we need a little more space to make the connections.
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/7/2010 4:57:24 AM GMT
The hyper cube would be easy to build the optical sphere would be hard.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
Models will shed some light on the subject. I am now experimenting with the first model - a 29 centimeter Chinese Edo Coscinodiscus construct in multiple dimensions (3D space = x, y, z, plus time). It is relatively easy to inscribe props, making exterior curved connections, or by "light wiring" inside the Coscinodiscus. E-Do in China provides home articles made by Fujian Nanan Xinyuan Plastic Co., Ltd. (I was not joking about shopping for kitchen supplies to keep the cost down) The last two shelf stocked perforated polymer screening shapes were purchased for about a dollar and 30 cents each, in the kitchen section of Merry Mart. The model is based on microscopic marine diatoms such as Coscinodiscus Wailesii Gran & Angst. It is interesting to find this by shopping the kitchen section of a common store. It's one example of a great technological find, that can be used for alternate applications.
This is my first esoteric 3D Propeller Proto Board using a polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic dimensional perforated model. The first 9 props are shown, though the Proto can inscribe more than 30 DIPs in the first layer. SMT can triple or quadruple this number per layer. DIP processors are used because they are easy to handle and readily illustrate the concept. Applications developed for this shape are primarily optical, i.e, internally it is wired with light, and externally it can be wired with multi-dimensional conductive pathways.
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/7/2010 6:43:05 AM GMT
Post edited. My mother always said if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything.. so I'm saying nothing [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Interesting concept.. can you make it work?
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Post Edited (BradC) : 1/7/2010 2:59:26 PM GMT
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/8/2010 2:13:01 AM GMT
Indeed. I apologise.. I should know better than to post on a public forum when I'm in one of those moods.. I shall now crawl back into my cave.
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Mighty Multiple Dimension Printed Circuit Board
Mighty Robust Dimension Printed Circuit Board
An update to the Esoteric 3D Multiple-Propeller-Chip Proto Board using Polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic Dimensional Perforated Model, a duplicate "unit" was added to the bottom (thus dual-diatomic modeling) using temporary plastic clips, doubling the real estate. The existing board became the top. I wanted to do an experiment to know if the "alternate addition" would have the same capability to communicate inside the curved dimension. What I find is that there are two conditions - a clear line of internal optical sight to enable double density, exterior surface area for electrical conductive pathways (and with both, the ability to communicate with all props), so this system also works too! This increases two DIP chip layers from 70 Props into four layers with 140 Props yielding 1,120 cores. In actuality, there is a position of oblate spheroidal concentration near the poles that was not considered for population. I'm sure this could could add a couple Props. Not a large number for this polar addition but every little bit helps.
humanoido
In the multiple dimensional board in this project, I need a different kind of program to figure out the board - one that can draw and show ray traces at any angle in, around, and outside a dimensional shape. That's because there are multiple rays for aiming, focusing and bending, hundreds or thousands of times. The program should be simple and not complicated, i.e. a learning curve of months is out of the question. The program should be freeware. Perhaps someone has experiences with such a program...
Thanks sincerely,
humanoido