Chip I would not use your on chip IDE or USB IDE simply because I am often doing multiple things at once and usually have Eagle and other programs open when coding.
My suggestion is learn Java and write a wonderful IDE in JAVA and release the source codes. Within a day it will be ported to every OS and code improvements will be coming in from every direction. You will have every programmer on this forum working for you for free to improve the IDE and add more features. You do not charge for the IDE so why not make it easy for people to make third party apps for the prop by releasing source codes.
JAVA is not what the hype cracks it up to be - it's not really portable, it's a mess - especially when you have to do things with hardware on specific OS platforms. (I've been programming in java professionally since it came out, so I am comfortable making this statement.)
- H
Chip> Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible).
> I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC
[noparse][[/noparse]EDIT - after thought] --- the IDE should be written in SPIN - what else?
It wouldn't be that silly or stifling. It could easily have control over the hardware - you'd just have to call the OS like everyone else does. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Post Edited (CounterRotatingProps) : 11/29/2009 2:09:39 AM GMT
mctrivia said...
Chip I would not use your on chip IDE or USB IDE simply because I am often doing multiple things at once and usually have Eagle and other programs open when coding.
Same here. Whatever dev tools Parallax develops have to harmonize with whatever system(s) their target audience is already using. I have to assume that the biggest target audience is OEMs, since that's where the volume sales that pay for the P2's development will come from. But there will be pushback from that crowd and less enthusiasm for the P2 if Parallax strays too far from their comfort zone. I know: it sucks, and it's not nearly as much fun, but it's reality.
Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
How about a super sleek 64KB OS for the PC that boots off a USB thumb drive and gives you a Spin IDE that targets the PC, itself? Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible). I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC, and Spin wouldn't be many people's first choice, but it sure would be nice to have a concise platform just for writing experimental apps on. I bet the PC would be amazingly fast, then. No commercials, either.
When I first saw thisa similar suggestion by hippy last year, I was against it because it would be too small and too obscure. I recently warmed up to the idea though especially as it would provide an easy launch platform for learning Spin for use in the Propeller for everyday kinds of folk, and think it is worth developing.
The problem is the 64KB thing. I thought surely with Prop II, a second generation Spin without a 64KB limit would be coming. That would make perfect sense for a PC development environment.
It would be easy to develop a virtual Spin machine and PC Propeller simulator. Assuming one still needs to port the language to break away from the 64KB limit, it would not be an unreasonable dev environment to facilitate that jump or to further the ability of "Spin kind" with wondrous widgets once that is done.
I would like to contribute to this some way.
(Edit: The suggestion of using Spin as a PC programming language was made - not an O/S.)
I didn't mean that the memory limitation would be 64KB. I meant that the whole thing could fit in that much space. The environment/memory limitation could be at least 32 bits, or 4GB.
You could call the PC OS functions and Prop directly or as PC functions - so Steve's (Jazzed) suggestion would lead to an emulator on the PC or the real Prop if it was plugged in.
Calling OS stuff is bread and butter work for many programmers.
Kind of like the idea of calling a Windows function from SPIN :^)
Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
I didn't mean that the memory limitation would be 64KB. I meant that the whole thing could fit in that much space. The environment/memory limitation could be at least 32 bits, or 4GB.
Ahh. That's a relief. You still need a virtual machine [noparse]:)[/noparse] BTW: a 32 bit capable Spin would be very welcome for XMM today and "may" help provide an easy transition to Prop II by allowing us to develop code "now" instead of rushing to deliver after silicon comes. It's the software equivalent of having the Propeller II pin out in advance but more effective in product terms [noparse]:)[/noparse].
You guys may think I'm nuts, but I keep thinking of the Smalltalk environment... where your Code / IDE / OS / target device are all virtually in the same programmer controlled space. Would sure solve Phil's concerns [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
I didn't mean that the memory limitation would be 64KB. I meant that the whole thing could fit in that much space. The environment/memory limitation could be at least 32 bits, or 4GB.
Ahh. That's a relief. You still need a virtual machine [noparse]:)[/noparse] BTW: a 32 bit capable Spin would be very welcome for XMM today and "may" help provide an easy transition to Prop II by allowing us to develop code "now" instead of rushing to deliver after silicon comes. It's the software equivalent of having the Propeller II pin out in advance but more effective in product terms [noparse]:)[/noparse].
I was thinking of a real compiler that would generate native assembly code, completely unencumbered by any virtualization. We'd have our own screen font, even. Give complete control of the PC hardware to the programmer. No API calls, at all, because there's nothing else there.
·Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
I was thinking of a real compiler that would generate native assembly code, completely unencumbered by any virtualization. We'd have our own screen font, even. Give complete control of the PC hardware to the programmer. No API calls, at all, because there's nothing else there.
A real compiler's one thing, diving down under the API is another.
Am I understanding correctly that you're considering the huge undertaking·of creating a PC·OS that deals with the myriad of·the PC's hardware, bios, PCI-bridge, DMA, yada yada?
[noparse][[/noparse]Edit] On the other hand, since you're thinking along these lines, maybe a Smalltalk-like version isn't such a crazy idea after all. SPINTalk, SmallSpin?· Smalltalk is a reflective language, PASM can be self modifying.
If you want to make·the PC, IDE, and Prop all live as one big happy family, then it might be an interesting experience to·noodle around some with SmallTalk. (It's been out since the 1970's - and is still·going strong.)
Might even want to take a look at the·IO and Ioke languages (for icing on the cake) [noparse]:)[/noparse])
- H
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Post Edited (CounterRotatingProps) : 11/29/2009 3:30:03 AM GMT
Chip Gracey, Parallax, Inc. said...
How about a super sleek 64KB OS for the PC that boots off a USB thumb drive and gives you a Spin IDE that targets the PC, itself? Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible). I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC, and Spin wouldn't be many people's first choice, but it sure would be nice to have a concise platform just for writing experimental apps on. I bet the PC would be amazingly fast, then. No commercials, either.
How about a super sleek 64KB OS for the PC that boots off a USB thumb drive and gives you a Spin IDE that targets the PC, itself? Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible). I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC, and Spin wouldn't be many people's first choice, but it sure would be nice to have a concise platform just for writing experimental apps on. I bet the PC would be amazingly fast, then. No commercials, either.
Why not build a IDE based on a proven and reliable realtime operating system (RTOS) such as QNX and run it from a flash drive.
Overview:
Since 1980, manufacturers have relied on QNX® RTOS technology to power their mission-critical applications — everything from medical instruments and Internet routers to telematics devices, 9-1-1 call centers, process control applications, and air traffic control systems. Small or large, simple or distributed, these systems share an unmatched reputation for operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, nonstop. Time-tested and field-proven, the QNX Neutrino RTOS sets the industry standard for reliability, fault tolerance, and scalability.
What makes QNX Neutrino realtime operating system (RTOS) so remarkable? It's a true microkernel operating system. Under QNX Neutrino, every driver, application, protocol stack, and file system runs outside the kernel, in the safety of memory-protected user space. Fault resilience is built right in. As a result, virtually any component can fail — and be automatically restarted — without affecting other components or the kernel. No other commercial RTOS provides such protection.
Flash Drive:
QNX Publishes Source Code for Full Suite of File Systems
News at a Glance...
# Source-code release includes file systems for NAND/NOR flash, IDE/SATA/SCSI hard drives, CD/DVD drives, USB sticks, RAM disks, and network-connected storage.
# Developers can download the source code from Foundry27.com, the QNX community web portal.
# Growing number of QNX products now available in source form, including QNX Neutrino microkernel, QNX adaptive partitioning, and QNX networking stacks.
OTTAWA, Canada, July 30, 2008 - QNX Software Systems today announced that it has published the source code for its entire suite of file systems.
Designed for high reliability and performance, QNX® file systems provide a standard POSIX interface for a wide variety of storage devices, including NAND and NOR flash memory; IDE, SATA, and SCSI hard drives; USB storage devices; CD and DVD optical drives; and RAM disks. The file system suite includes support for multiple industry formats, including FAT for Windows disk partitions, EXT2 for Linux disk partitions, and NFS/CIFS for network file access.
QNX has published the code as part of its hybrid software model, which enhances the productivity of embedded system developers by providing immediate, realtime access to the latest QNX code updates, bug fixes, and product developments.
Note: at least 8 years ago I used to boot QNX from a 1.44 floppy disk. I could connect to the Internet , Launch it's built in web browser and surf the web. I had to do 0 configurations and had 0 problems. .
On the same PC it took me most of an evening, configuring and guessing to get MS Windows working on the Internet the first time I ran it.
Post Edited (Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)) : 11/29/2009 3:40:56 AM GMT
How about a super sleek 64KB OS for the PC that boots off a USB thumb drive and gives you a Spin IDE that targets the PC, itself? Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible). I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC, and Spin wouldn't be many people's first choice, but it sure would be nice to have a concise platform just for writing experimental apps on. I bet the PC would be amazingly fast, then. No commercials, either.
Why not build a IDE based on a proven and reliable realtime operating system (RTOS) such as QNX and run it from a flash drive.
Because there is a very limited subset of hardware supported by this stuff. Same concept as writing your own OS. It sounds like a great idea at the outset, until you look at the plethora of hardware you'll have to support. Have a look at the linux kernel source for an idea of the differences in outwardly identical hardware.
If you were going to write your own OS, why not use an existing kernel that already provides all the hardware support and memory management, and just drop your environment on top of it? Both the BSD and Linux kernels are quite capable of running without the GNU userspace on top of them and both have very stable userspace syscall interfaces.
You are then back to the whole "how do I interact with the world?" question though. Networked file systems, web browsers, applications and of course the ability to do what modern computers were designed for in running more than one thing at once.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
How about a super sleek 64KB OS for the PC that boots off a USB thumb drive and gives you a Spin IDE that targets the PC, itself? Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible). I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC, and Spin wouldn't be many people's first choice, but it sure would be nice to have a concise platform just for writing experimental apps on. I bet the PC would be amazingly fast, then. No commercials, either.
To create the new hybrid software model, QNX Software Systems has launched three bold initiatives:
* Simple, free-of-charge access to QNX source code, starting with the award-winning QNX Neutrino microkernel.
* A flexible, commercial-friendly licensing model that lets developers keep their source modifications or share them with the rest of the QNX community.
* A transparent development process in which QNX develops its products out in the open. From now on, QNX community members can both track and participate in QNX product development.
CounterRotatingProps said...
... therefore, the best option might be to make the Prop2's IDE source open (under the same lic. as SPIN Obex)
Then we happy users could build on it to our heart's content... intefacing windows dlls, Linux calls, etc etc [noparse]:)[/noparse])
I understand that the current tool was developed using Delphi, years ago there was a file (loader.pas???) in the forum, I used it to show that they could use with Lazarus, and creating tools for Linux and other systems.
To create the new hybrid software model, QNX Software Systems has launched three bold initiatives:
* Simple, free-of-charge access to QNX source code, starting with the award-winning QNX Neutrino microkernel.
* A flexible, commercial-friendly licensing model that lets developers keep their source modifications or share them with the rest of the QNX community.
* A transparent development process in which QNX develops its products out in the open. From now on, QNX community members can both track and participate in QNX product development.
When in trouble they always change their minds.
They are opening a little business, but none of free nor gratis.
Try QNX now for free!
Download the 30 day evaluation
Prior could be used indefinitely for personal use.
I was thinking of a real compiler that would generate native assembly code, completely
unencumbered by any virtualization. We'd have our own screen font, even. Give complete
control of the PC hardware to the programmer. No API calls, at all, because there's
nothing else there.
A real compiler is fine, but is more work than necessary and may not provide the easiest "path" to follow.
Leverage what you already have cultivated (product and users).
To me, having the PC dev environment be like the Propeller dev environment is important for teaching
people to use your product. Sure there will be some differences because of address range, but that is trivial.
Focus on delivering your unique value add instead of a Herculean behemoth that would drain your private
piggy-bank resources. Even Google (like Apple with BSD?) is using Linux as the basis of their to be released
Chrome O/S. The last "new" and well financed O/S company, BEOS, was quietly shut down near the turn of
the century. It makes sense to embrace something that already works (without product killing royalties as
in the case of QNX or others and patent land-mines).
Existing API allow you to do anything you like. COGINIT, etc can be faked on the PC using Linux pthreads ...
sure it's not deterministic, but that's part of the Propeller value add right? Video drivers are easily abstracted
with system primitives ... you can have your font and eat it too.
A Propeller dev environment "suite" that simulates all the different chips and platforms would be a great asset
and pull-through sales tool. The most primitive device and configuration and all it's third party extensions could
be supported by the developers. The more advanced device(s) and the greater power they bring can be
demonstrated easily with a build option or "project type". For a user to see what is possible and what might
work best in a given situation is priceless and may lead to more and happier customers.
The Propeller future is great. Today's Propeller is great for its market. Having a Spin PC language/dev environment
and PASM simulation on the PC can help draw customers that have reservations about diving in the Propeller pool.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty. For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer. Don't guess - ask instead. If you don't ask you won't know. If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
I wasn't thinking that this Spin IDE would be to simulate a Propeller chip, but be a means of writing programs to run on the PC hardware. These programs would be deployable only to run on the skeletal framework that the IDE would provide. When I consider this netbook I have, I would like to have unfettered use of its resources (processor, ram, screen, keyboard, storage, comms, etc.) without ingesting the whole enchilada of an existing OS.
There must be some baseline compatibilities (ie agnostic bitmap graphics w/o the 3D stuff) that could be built upon. I'm not talking about reiventing the whole wheel, just enough to let one write a program that can really run at 3GIPS and draw stuff on the display. I want to kick out all the garbage and be able to use the machine for whatever I want, given the limitations of no frills. I just bought this little machine for $300 and I'd like to be able to use it all, not just the 10% that the current OS begrudgingly allows me, while it leaves me to babysit all kinds of unwelcome parasites.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 11/29/2009 6:20:32 AM GMT
- PS/2 keyboard & mouse (through emulation on new USB-only) boxes
- VESA text and graphics modes (on any video card)
- IDE hard drive emulation
Hmm... your idea could work...
Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
I wasn't thinking that this Spin IDE would be to simulate a Propeller chip, but be a means of writing programs to run on the PC hardware. These programs would be deployable only to run on the skeletal framework that the IDE would provide. When I consider this netbook I have, I would like to have unfettered use of its resources (processor, ram, screen, keyboard, storage, comms, etc.) without ingesting the whole enchilada of an existing OS.
There must be some baseline compatibilities (ie agnostic bitmap graphics w/o the 3D stuff) that could be built upon. I'm not talking about reiventing the whole wheel, just enough to let one write a program that can really run at 3GIPS and draw stuff on the display. I want to kick out all the garbage and be able to use the machine for whatever I want, given the limitations of no frills. I just bought this little machine for $300 and I'd like to be able to use it all, not just the 10% that the current OS begrudgingly allows me, while it leaves me to babysit all kinds of unwelcome parasites.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ www.mikronauts.com Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full Morpheusdual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory IO board kit $89.95, both kits $189.95 Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
Bill Henning said...
Pretty much all BIOS's support:
- PS/2 keyboard & mouse (through emulation on new USB-only) boxes
- VESA text and graphics modes (on any video card)
- IDE hard drive emulation
Hmm... your idea could work...
Except that the "BIOS" as we know it today is already dead, it just won't lie down. The number of huge BIOS bugs related to storage devices and USB enumeration has to be seen to be believed. The world is slowly moving EFI.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
Sounds like another step down the road I don't want to travel. This trend of feeling like YOU are less and less the owner of your computer is slated to continue.
I wonder how long it will take before the average user learns to distrust his PC, or will it never happen?
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 11/29/2009 10:46:11 AM GMT
Chip, I appreciate you motivation for a "bear metal" system.
Everyone who grew up with C64's, Apples, TRS80's etc, etc misses the power they found they could get out of their machines when the worked around whatever OS, BASIC, ROMS the machines had. Working in assembler, talking straight to the registers was the way to go.
But, please, please don't waste your time trying to do that for a Prop IDE on a PC. As has been pointed out the variations in hardware in the world of the "standard" PC are already enormous and things keep changing all the time. It's impossible to keep up with. Number one complaints for both Windows and Linux is poor drivers, lack of drivers and such. Many times I have failed to bring up Linux on some new mother board because of a funky new chip set that it did not understand. Eventually the kernel gets support for said feature and the mother board becomes usable. Do you really want to be doing all that hardware support, I don't think so.
It gets worse, perhaps you can home in on a set of PC hardware features that are guaranteed to be everywhere forever (unlikely) perhaps with some BIOS support.
Fine, but then what happens when we want to fire that on our new ARM based computer? Say a tablet, or netbook, or even mobile phone or just a Beagle Board. www.beagleboard.org
Basically becoming dependent on a hardware architecture is dumb. Well unless perhaps it's your own hardware.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Heater, don't worry. I am not about to spend my energy making the PC into·a Propeller. It's just good to explore a possibility until some terminus is reached. In this case, I think the PC is terminally ill.
It just occurred to me that, during all this talk of possible Prop II features over the past months, I don't recall ever hearing any mention of JTAG. Did it never come up or was it quickly shot down?
I see there was discussion of multiple boot sources for the Prop II, SD card, SPI flash, USB stick etc didn't see JTAG on the list.
Now I don't know so much about the nitty gritty of JTAG but on the face of it it seems quite simple. A few serial lines enabling reading/writing of internal RAM, processor regs etc.
I was prompted to think about this after there was mention of a Prop simulator integrated with the IDE for debugging purposes. With JTAG the need for a simulator goes away as one can monitor regs and vars of the real hardware instead.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
> It just occurred to me that, during all this talk of possible Prop II features over the past months, I don't recall ever hearing
> any mention of JTAG. Did it never come up or was it quickly shot down?
Are you talking with a split tongue?
May I cite you: "Serial programming vs JTAG nightmare."
I didn't make that JTAG-suggestion, because you (not personally) are trying to fill the ROM with an IDE that only would help a hobbyist. JTAG would be too professional, I fear.
Nick
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Never use force, just go for a bigger hammer!
The DIY Digital-Readout for mills, lathes etc.: YADRO
Comments
My suggestion is learn Java and write a wonderful IDE in JAVA and release the source codes. Within a day it will be ported to every OS and code improvements will be coming in from every direction. You will have every programmer on this forum working for you for free to improve the IDE and add more features. You do not charge for the IDE so why not make it easy for people to make third party apps for the prop by releasing source codes.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
JAVA is not what the hype cracks it up to be - it's not really portable, it's a mess - especially when you have to do things with hardware on specific OS platforms. (I've been programming in java professionally since it came out, so I am comfortable making this statement.)
- H
Chip> Your compiled apps could have complete control over the PC hardware (if this is even possible).
> I know it's silly and rather stifling for a PC
[noparse][[/noparse]EDIT - after thought] --- the IDE should be written in SPIN - what else?
It wouldn't be that silly or stifling. It could easily have control over the hardware - you'd just have to call the OS like everyone else does. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Post Edited (CounterRotatingProps) : 11/29/2009 2:09:39 AM GMT
Thus, they can add things or fix things that have gone wrong.
The ROM space could be used to add some icons or something.
-Phil
The problem is the 64KB thing. I thought surely with Prop II, a second generation Spin without a 64KB limit would be coming. That would make perfect sense for a PC development environment.
It would be easy to develop a virtual Spin machine and PC Propeller simulator. Assuming one still needs to port the language to break away from the 64KB limit, it would not be an unreasonable dev environment to facilitate that jump or to further the ability of "Spin kind" with wondrous widgets once that is done.
I would like to contribute to this some way.
(Edit: The suggestion of using Spin as a PC programming language was made - not an O/S.)
Post Edited (jazzed) : 11/29/2009 2:22:04 AM GMT
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
You could call the PC OS functions and Prop directly or as PC functions - so Steve's (Jazzed) suggestion would lead to an emulator on the PC or the real Prop if it was plugged in.
Calling OS stuff is bread and butter work for many programmers.
Kind of like the idea of calling a Windows function from SPIN :^)
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Post Edited (jazzed) : 11/29/2009 2:34:54 AM GMT
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Am I understanding correctly that you're considering the huge undertaking·of creating a PC·OS that deals with the myriad of·the PC's hardware, bios, PCI-bridge, DMA, yada yada?
[noparse][[/noparse]Edit] On the other hand, since you're thinking along these lines, maybe a Smalltalk-like version isn't such a crazy idea after all. SPINTalk, SmallSpin?· Smalltalk is a reflective language, PASM can be self modifying.
If you want to make·the PC, IDE, and Prop all live as one big happy family, then it might be an interesting experience to·noodle around some with SmallTalk. (It's been out since the 1970's - and is still·going strong.)
Might even want to take a look at the·IO and Ioke languages (for icing on the cake) [noparse]:)[/noparse])
- H
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Post Edited (CounterRotatingProps) : 11/29/2009 3:30:03 AM GMT
humanoido
Why not build a IDE based on a proven and reliable realtime operating system (RTOS) such as QNX and run it from a flash drive.
Overview:
Since 1980, manufacturers have relied on QNX® RTOS technology to power their mission-critical applications — everything from medical instruments and Internet routers to telematics devices, 9-1-1 call centers, process control applications, and air traffic control systems. Small or large, simple or distributed, these systems share an unmatched reputation for operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, nonstop. Time-tested and field-proven, the QNX Neutrino RTOS sets the industry standard for reliability, fault tolerance, and scalability.
What makes QNX Neutrino realtime operating system (RTOS) so remarkable? It's a true microkernel operating system. Under QNX Neutrino, every driver, application, protocol stack, and file system runs outside the kernel, in the safety of memory-protected user space. Fault resilience is built right in. As a result, virtually any component can fail — and be automatically restarted — without affecting other components or the kernel. No other commercial RTOS provides such protection.
Flash Drive:
QNX Publishes Source Code for Full Suite of File Systems
News at a Glance...
# Source-code release includes file systems for NAND/NOR flash, IDE/SATA/SCSI hard drives, CD/DVD drives, USB sticks, RAM disks, and network-connected storage.
# Developers can download the source code from Foundry27.com, the QNX community web portal.
# Growing number of QNX products now available in source form, including QNX Neutrino microkernel, QNX adaptive partitioning, and QNX networking stacks.
OTTAWA, Canada, July 30, 2008 - QNX Software Systems today announced that it has published the source code for its entire suite of file systems.
Designed for high reliability and performance, QNX® file systems provide a standard POSIX interface for a wide variety of storage devices, including NAND and NOR flash memory; IDE, SATA, and SCSI hard drives; USB storage devices; CD and DVD optical drives; and RAM disks. The file system suite includes support for multiple industry formats, including FAT for Windows disk partitions, EXT2 for Linux disk partitions, and NFS/CIFS for network file access.
QNX has published the code as part of its hybrid software model, which enhances the productivity of embedded system developers by providing immediate, realtime access to the latest QNX code updates, bug fixes, and product developments.
Note: at least 8 years ago I used to boot QNX from a 1.44 floppy disk. I could connect to the Internet , Launch it's built in web browser and surf the web. I had to do 0 configurations and had 0 problems.
On the same PC it took me most of an evening, configuring and guessing to get MS Windows working on the Internet the first time I ran it.
Post Edited (Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)) : 11/29/2009 3:40:56 AM GMT
Because there is a very limited subset of hardware supported by this stuff. Same concept as writing your own OS. It sounds like a great idea at the outset, until you look at the plethora of hardware you'll have to support. Have a look at the linux kernel source for an idea of the differences in outwardly identical hardware.
If you were going to write your own OS, why not use an existing kernel that already provides all the hardware support and memory management, and just drop your environment on top of it? Both the BSD and Linux kernels are quite capable of running without the GNU userspace on top of them and both have very stable userspace syscall interfaces.
You are then back to the whole "how do I interact with the world?" question though. Networked file systems, web browsers, applications and of course the ability to do what modern computers were designed for in running more than one thing at once.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
Then we happy users could build on it to our heart's content... intefacing windows dlls, Linux calls, etc etc [noparse]:)[/noparse])
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I tried QNX as 10 years ago, and is an Operating System "Cool", but has a high cost. QNX is part of the Unix family, and the king now is Linux.
To create the new hybrid software model, QNX Software Systems has launched three bold initiatives:
* Simple, free-of-charge access to QNX source code, starting with the award-winning QNX Neutrino microkernel.
* A flexible, commercial-friendly licensing model that lets developers keep their source modifications or share them with the rest of the QNX community.
* A transparent development process in which QNX develops its products out in the open. From now on, QNX community members can both track and participate in QNX product development.
I understand that the current tool was developed using Delphi, years ago there was a file (loader.pas???) in the forum, I used it to show that they could use with Lazarus, and creating tools for Linux and other systems.
BradC finally made it.
When in trouble they always change their minds.
They are opening a little business, but none of free nor gratis.
Try QNX now for free!
Download the 30 day evaluation
Prior could be used indefinitely for personal use.
Leverage what you already have cultivated (product and users).
To me, having the PC dev environment be like the Propeller dev environment is important for teaching
people to use your product. Sure there will be some differences because of address range, but that is trivial.
Focus on delivering your unique value add instead of a Herculean behemoth that would drain your private
piggy-bank resources. Even Google (like Apple with BSD?) is using Linux as the basis of their to be released
Chrome O/S. The last "new" and well financed O/S company, BEOS, was quietly shut down near the turn of
the century. It makes sense to embrace something that already works (without product killing royalties as
in the case of QNX or others and patent land-mines).
Existing API allow you to do anything you like. COGINIT, etc can be faked on the PC using Linux pthreads ...
sure it's not deterministic, but that's part of the Propeller value add right? Video drivers are easily abstracted
with system primitives ... you can have your font and eat it too.
A Propeller dev environment "suite" that simulates all the different chips and platforms would be a great asset
and pull-through sales tool. The most primitive device and configuration and all it's third party extensions could
be supported by the developers. The more advanced device(s) and the greater power they bring can be
demonstrated easily with a build option or "project type". For a user to see what is possible and what might
work best in a given situation is priceless and may lead to more and happier customers.
The Propeller future is great. Today's Propeller is great for its market. Having a Spin PC language/dev environment
and PASM simulation on the PC can help draw customers that have reservations about diving in the Propeller pool.
I have started separate thread ... On my ideas
Will post more if You answer You will have them
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=405078&g=405078#m405078
Regards Christoffer
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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Sapieha
There must be some baseline compatibilities (ie agnostic bitmap graphics w/o the 3D stuff) that could be built upon. I'm not talking about reiventing the whole wheel, just enough to let one write a program that can really run at 3GIPS and draw stuff on the display. I want to kick out all the garbage and be able to use the machine for whatever I want, given the limitations of no frills. I just bought this little machine for $300 and I'd like to be able to use it all, not just the 10% that the current OS begrudgingly allows me, while it leaves me to babysit all kinds of unwelcome parasites.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 11/29/2009 6:20:32 AM GMT
- PS/2 keyboard & mouse (through emulation on new USB-only) boxes
- VESA text and graphics modes (on any video card)
- IDE hard drive emulation
Hmm... your idea could work...
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www.mikronauts.com Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
Morpheusdual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory IO board kit $89.95, both kits $189.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
Except that the "BIOS" as we know it today is already dead, it just won't lie down. The number of huge BIOS bugs related to storage devices and USB enumeration has to be seen to be believed. The world is slowly moving EFI.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2009/01/efi-hidden-threat-to-computing-freedom.html
Sounds like another step down the road I don't want to travel. This trend of feeling like YOU are less and less the owner of your computer is slated to continue.
I wonder how long it will take before the average user learns to distrust his PC, or will it never happen?
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 11/29/2009 10:46:11 AM GMT
Everyone who grew up with C64's, Apples, TRS80's etc, etc misses the power they found they could get out of their machines when the worked around whatever OS, BASIC, ROMS the machines had. Working in assembler, talking straight to the registers was the way to go.
But, please, please don't waste your time trying to do that for a Prop IDE on a PC. As has been pointed out the variations in hardware in the world of the "standard" PC are already enormous and things keep changing all the time. It's impossible to keep up with. Number one complaints for both Windows and Linux is poor drivers, lack of drivers and such. Many times I have failed to bring up Linux on some new mother board because of a funky new chip set that it did not understand. Eventually the kernel gets support for said feature and the mother board becomes usable. Do you really want to be doing all that hardware support, I don't think so.
It gets worse, perhaps you can home in on a set of PC hardware features that are guaranteed to be everywhere forever (unlikely) perhaps with some BIOS support.
Fine, but then what happens when we want to fire that on our new ARM based computer? Say a tablet, or netbook, or even mobile phone or just a Beagle Board. www.beagleboard.org
Basically becoming dependent on a hardware architecture is dumb. Well unless perhaps it's your own hardware.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
It just occurred to me that, during all this talk of possible Prop II features over the past months, I don't recall ever hearing any mention of JTAG. Did it never come up or was it quickly shot down?
I see there was discussion of multiple boot sources for the Prop II, SD card, SPI flash, USB stick etc didn't see JTAG on the list.
Now I don't know so much about the nitty gritty of JTAG but on the face of it it seems quite simple. A few serial lines enabling reading/writing of internal RAM, processor regs etc.
I was prompted to think about this after there was mention of a Prop simulator integrated with the IDE for debugging purposes. With JTAG the need for a simulator goes away as one can monitor regs and vars of the real hardware instead.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
> any mention of JTAG. Did it never come up or was it quickly shot down?
Are you talking with a split tongue?
May I cite you: "Serial programming vs JTAG nightmare."
I didn't make that JTAG-suggestion, because you (not personally) are trying to fill the ROM with an IDE that only would help a hobbyist. JTAG would be too professional, I fear.
Nick
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Never use force, just go for a bigger hammer!
The DIY Digital-Readout for mills, lathes etc.:
YADRO
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.