microcontrolled said...
I am using Vista now and it is the most user friendly system I have ever used
Your frame of reference appears to be very narrow. Perhaps you ought to broaden your horizons a little and experiment with some of the other systems available. You may be pleasantly surprised.
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
Honestly, I don't think Vista or OS X are HCI revolutions - to the layperson, they're extremely similar (both have file explorers, control panels, minimize / maximize / close buttons, etc). I remember reading a few years ago about scopeware, I thought it was pretty interesting - thinking about better ways to work with information instead of widget toolsets & multitasking methods.
As a network administrator I feel I can add a few points.
Linux: Not ready for the market and will not be until they try to focus on one thing and not million. They are good for single purpose machines (cheap firewalls etc.) but
as a main stream OS I do not see them doing very well. I have used most flavors of the OS and I feel like I have gone back in time with functionality. And I have never had one that was very stable as a desktop OS (server on the other hand is very stable).
Mac: Took BSD and focused. I enjoy OSX for the most part but as mentioned there are a few things that still needs to be fixed but will hopefully be fixed in the future (mainly issues with Active Directory) But I am not willing to pay twice as much for the exact same Intel hardware. When they release OSX to be 100% PC compatible they will win the OS war.
Windows XP: Can be a very good operating system if you slipstream it.
I work at a private school which translate to we have no money for computers. I am running all of the student computers on old 1ghz PIII 512MB Ram and have zero problems. You can not beat that with any system out there. For the teachers I build machines from scratch(P4 2 Core, 1GB ram) for a little over $300. Once again that is cheap. The biggest problem with WindowsXP is not the OS per say but all of the junk that vendors put on them to bring the price down(cough cough Dell).
Windows 7: Love it for the most part. I have been using it since the first beta copy and now the RC version. I have run it on a 3 year old Sony Vaio with zero problems(I did add 3gigs of ram).
I'm surprised by all the hype that's going on here but especially how a lot of it's based on shall I say "lack of knowledge". If something is different and you are not used to it then that does not mean that it is not as good as what you are used to.
For the WIN (only Bill really wins) camp it seems that is the only OS they have used so it is the best. EVERYBODY has used Windows so anybody who has used another OS is not ignorant of what Windows is like.
For the MAC people (we know they live on a different planet) they have the excellent and exclusive MAC OS running on excellent and exclusive hardware but in a way they are locked in and have to make do.
I have used MACs since the LISA XL etc but changed over in the early 90's mainly for compatibility and affordability. They were sad days but the Windows era was dawning and application software was gushing over everywhere. True, I had used PC's before right from the dark dim XT ages but it just couldn't compare with the MAC. Since I retired the MACs back then I have been a Windows draftee as there was nothing else to choose from unless you were into Desktop publishing etc.
Ahh yes, and then there was Linux floating around, especially since the late 90's and it looked like it could fly sometimes. But what good was all that if it couldn't interface to you printer or other devices plus it didn't really have any solid applications that normal people used.
There are good and bad things to say about these three mainstream OSs and which one we use usually depends upon what we have to use. I'm surprised though by that remark about Linux not being ready for the market as I can thoroughly disagree since I have made the big shift myself and there is definitely no looking back at all, just big grins.
Like learning a new language it is usually too hard and too much bother to change your OS unless you are really motivated. Fortunately virtualization makes it easier to make that big switch, you can ease across gradually.
Of course we are all free to choose which OS we use but if you don't know anything about another OS then that's one less choice, and with only one choice there is effectively no choice.
Peter Jakacki, if Linux was ready for market then don't you think a free OS would be on every machine out there. Instead people will spend a lot of money upgrading there machines to either the next Microsoft product or even more money on MAC products. Linux is way past most operating system when it comes to specialized situations but for home computing they are a few years behind. I can't even get a decent word processor out of them, even though there are dozens to choose from.
OSX showed us that you can take a unix derivative OS and turn it into something usefull other than a server. OSX is a market ready solutions and is taking the PC market by storm even though you pay twice as much. Linux on the other hand are used mostly by individuals that don't mind searching for days for a simple driver or compiling their own. That is not a market ready home OS.
Once again I want to be clear that I am not bashing Linux. I continue to use them everyday but only for specialized situations. They could be a great alternative for people one day but I am not holding my breath.
Well Jesse, I was trying not to get too direct with my counter statement but I want to be clear also that I can't understand the basis for your remarks. I realize that we can't always elaborate on the points we make as we are simply leaving a message on a forum. I am always prepared to backup my statements and also concede various points, that's why it's a forum. Now to take the statements you made (not you) to task.
Decent word processor? I use OpenOffice for everything, documents, datasheets, spreadsheets, drawings, labels etc. If it's not a decent word processor then you must have some rather peculiar requirements that are not at all in keeping with the "home market".
Searching for drivers??? I think that used to be the way it was years ago but I haven't had to do that lately at all, the stuff just works. Windows is preloaded with umpteen million drivers for everything but the one you want. Take the FTDI drivers for instance, non-standard for Windows but preloaded into Ubuntu. It's a pretty rare thing for Linux to require a reboot too, it will quite happily update without disturbing you.
As to why Linux is not on every new machine I think anybody would be naive to think it's because that other OS is better. You know, I know, we know, that marketing clout requires $$$ and a virtual monopoly on the PC market is what is desired and has been achieved to date.
So please don't try to talk people down from trying alternatives just because the alternative doesn't suit you. I am speaking up for Linux because it definitely works for me, not as a network administrator but as a home and office user, and as an engineer.
Anyway, I'm not saying all this from a purely academic point of view. I can't afford to stuff about with drivers and OSes which is why I gave the previous OS the boot and booted up Linux instead.
It is very hard to get a point across on a forum with out sounding harsh etc, that is probably the worst part about them so I will try my best to explain my point of view.
OpenOffice is not a bad word processor etc but it is like using Office XP. Office XP is a great word processor but when you compare either one to Office 2007 for example it feels like you are going back in time. Does this make OpenOffice or Office XP a bad office suite? No, all of them basically do the exact same thing. How much better can you make a text editor. But users today expect a lot more than how it operates, they expect them to look good also. I know this sounds superficial and it is but it is how humans operate, why do you think the IPhone is so popular, is it not just a modern day cell phone like the rest of the new touch screen phones? But because it looks good and is easy to operate it is popular and people tend to like that. My point is people expect all word processors to do the same thing and they all pretty much do(except Edit, Vi, etc) so we look for one that is easier to operate, looks better and has all of the bells and whistles. Once again I am not bashing OpenOffice I have used it extensively and it gets the job done.
Drivers on the other hand still is a huge problem with linux. If you have tried to install it on as many machines as I have than you would understand it is still a problem and I know it is not 100% linux OSs fault but the fault of many hardware manufactures not creating drivers for it because Linux does not have the market share like MS and Mac has. Compared to OSX or Windows XP and now Windows 7 the driver base for these OS is huge and I rarely have an issue with either getting them or using the preinstalled ones.
Please don't get the impression that I am trying to talk anyone out of using any OS, if the OS works for you that is great. I like them all and have used them all on a day to day basis, I am merely trying to explain why Linux has not taken off as mush as MS and Mac OS have.
Jesse
PS. If you like Ubuntu you might want to look at openSuse if you have not already. To me it has been the most enjoyable Linux to date and is rock solid. Infact I am currently downloading the Suse Enterprise Desktop 11 trial as we speak.
Jesse, no problems, just talking, that's how it works.
Yeah, I've got tubs full of Linux flavors and openSuse too. I'm just d/l the latest 11.2 and I will try it out in a few minutes before I get some kip (sleep).
But if it's so good why did they ditch their own hardware and switch to the IBM hardware formate that windows uses?
They made the change pretty quit too.Much like they had bin peaking all along.The Apple and the IBM hardware were so different that Mac, In My opinion couldn't compete.
This is like Toyota in Nascar. Toyota flat out said they made their motor from the best of Dodge,Ford,and Chevy engines. I guess several thousand miles of ocean end all copywrite and patent laws, etc..
I don't like Vista at all, Its to Big brothed out. I also have driver issues. And no HyperTerminal sucks
I see the praises of Mac Machines, But I see them needing the most help with computer issues?
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re: I see great reviews of MAC machines But if it's so good why did they ditch their own hardware and switch to the IBM hardware format
Apple did not have their own hardware per se. They used the IBM Power PC chip to build their motherboards. While I am not privy to any inside information it is not too hard to see the reasoning for the move.
- The X86 chips are available from several suppliers at lower in cost.
- Peripheral chips are available from multiple suppliers.
- Far more add on cards were designed for the PC (PCI bus) than Apple could possibly provide. An X86 cpu and PCI bus provides access to them.
- Moving to an Intel compatible chip allows MAC users to run Windows directly or indirectly to access software not otherwise available.
re: Toyota flat out said they made their motor from the best of Dodge,Ford,and Chevy engines.
In spite of what you imply Toyota did not steal or violate any copyrights or patents from Ford, Chrysler, or GM. What they did was take the best and most reliable ideas, techniques, and designs available and incorporated them into their vehicles and production lines. For many years I drove vehicles that were manufactured by GM, Ford, Chrysler, and even AMC. I bought my first Toyota in 2004 for my wife, and because of the quality, reliability, and dealer service, I bought my second Toyota vehicle for myself in December 2007. So far I have not had a single problem with either. Wish I could say the same for my earlier vehicles. The list of problems is long.
- Could not drive through a small snow drift without the accessory belt coming off (Chrysler minivan)
- Dealer orders parts for warranty work, delays work until vehicle is out of warranty and then charges for it (Chrysler minivan)
- Transmission fails after 12-15K and replacements are no better. Replaced three times under warranty, once not (Chrysler )
- A high pitched whine reported to dealer on a new vehicle every time it went for regular service, but no problem ever found. It turned out to be
the alternator bearing, which was discovered when it seized up on the highway, causing intermittent deceleration and a cherry red alternator.
This was not covered by warranty in spite of being mentioned on every service order from when the van was new.(GM Astro van)
- Rear axle seals leaking at 58K. Dealer replaced seals (non warranty). Approximately 13K later new seals started to leak. Dealer replaced axle
assembly. Dealer and GM rep refused to cover any part of both repairs in spite of it being an obvious design defect. I later learned that the axle tubes
were made too thin, and the force of the U bolts clamping the axle to the leaf springs caused the axle tube to slowly deform. (GM Astro van)
PS - This happened on 5 out of 5 vans the company leased. No repair was ever done under warranty, and no service bulletin was ever issued for
the problem so almost all owners ended up paying nearly double ($780.00 for axle seals, $920.00 new axle) for repairs.
- My first new vehicle was a Ford, and it broke down so often for so many different problems that I got rid of it after less than 2 years. I might have taken
the dealer up on his excellent trade in offer if my neighbor had not bought a Ford (different model) and was having even more problems than I was.
That first experience with Ford left such a bad impression that I have never owned a Ford since.
All things said and done I think the big 3 are getting exactly what they deserve. They have been building over sized, poor quality gas guzzling behemoths and trying to push them on us with high priced advertising campaigns, while their competitors have built smaller, comfortable, good quality, economical vehicles that people actually want to buy.
I think the situation also speaks volumes about the ability and foresight of the overpaid management that ran these companies from the top to bankruptcy or near bankruptcy. With their salaries, bonuses, stock plans, and golden parachutes I am sure that they are doing just fine, thank you very much. Too bad we can't say the same about the rest of the folks in the auto industry.
re: I see great reviews of MAC machines But if it's so good why did they ditch their own hardware and switch to the IBM hardware format
Apple did not have their own hardware per se. They used the IBM Power PC chip to build their motherboards. While I am not privy to any inside information it is not too hard to see the reasoning for the move.
- The X86 chips are available from several suppliers at lower in cost.
- Peripheral chips are available from multiple suppliers.
- Far more add on cards were designed for the PC (PCI bus) than Apple could possibly provide. An X86 cpu and PCI bus provides access to them.
- Moving to an Intel compatible chip allows MAC users to run Windows directly or indirectly to access software not otherwise available.
To address your points..
kwinn said...
- The X86 chips are available from several suppliers at lower in cost.
Except all Apple machines come bolted with Intel Processors.. Next!
kwinn said...
- Peripheral chips are available from multiple suppliers.
And *loads* of them make PCI peripherals that are compatible with PPC processors/chipsets (like most). Next!
kwinn said...
- Far more add on cards were designed for the PC (PCI bus) than Apple could possibly provide. An X86 cpu and PCI bus provides access to them.
And my PPC Mac (and many others) have both PCI and AGP slots that fit most PC compatible boards. Drivers for the Mac may be a bit of a challenge, but just install Linux and it's game over. It's not the architecture that is a limit here. Next!
kwinn said...
- Moving to an Intel compatible chip allows MAC users to run Windows directly or indirectly to access software not otherwise available.
Closer, but VirtualPC did the job acceptably well and was well supported.
It's even simpler than that unfortunately. As IBM and Motorola stagnated with the PPC development (actually, more changed direction - The Cell is cool) it became less suitable as a desktop, and more importantly mobile, processor. The G5 just never scaled down to a low power, high clock speed mobile processor, and the Centrino combination (as much as it was/is a legacy hack of the PIII) smoked it. (Lets face it, the P-IV was a three legged dog, so they went back to a better architecture and just improved that - it's taken years, but they've finally leapfrogged AMD - For now)
If IBM had come up with a G5 that could compete on a MIPS/W basis I'd say odds on Apple would still be using the PPC. As it happened, that did not happen and Apple had to make the move. As OSX was built on a fairly portable basis (unlike the earlier incarnations of MacOS) it was "relatively" easy for them to make the switch. Lets face it, "Fat binaries" rock [noparse]:)[/noparse]
NT used to be multi-platform as well.. Once..
Would I buy another Mac? Absolutely. I could not get a "Windows PC - of any kind" of the same specifications for anywhere *near* the price.. and I run Linux on it, so I looked *really* hard. Seriously. I only bought the Mac for those reasons. My PPC Mac came later when I decided I wanted to support more than Linux with some software I've been working on. I've had loads of Macs over the years, but I've been using Linux as my main OS since '96.
My laptop is a Vaio (it's the smallest PC and with the best battery life that was available when I bought it, bar none). My Desktop is a Mac Mini (it's the smallest and quietest PC I could get with the specs I needed at the right price). If I wanted a generic "white box" (Cheap, size no object, noise no object) then I'd buy one.. I used to do that, but then I learned better.
I use WinXP in a VM for 2 applications - AutoCAD and Protel98 (Because there really are no alternatives at no cost right now - I already own both of them). If an alternative becomes available (as happened with my third Windows only application) then I'll probably make the jump there too.
Excuse the rant.. but most people already know I'm an OS bigot [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
Although I use Windows most of the time I am pretty much OS agnostic. I use Linux at home and deal with it and MacOS in the field. Before that I dealt with Unix and a variety of proprietary operating systems from DEC, Data General, HP, CPM, and others. They all have their good points as well as their drawbacks.
But if it's so good why did they ditch their own hardware and switch to the IBM hardware formate that windows uses?
They made the change pretty quit too.Much like they had bin peaking all along.The Apple and the IBM hardware were so different that Mac, In My opinion couldn't compete.
This is like Toyota in Nascar. Toyota flat out said they made their motor from the best of Dodge,Ford,and Chevy engines. I guess several thousand miles of ocean end all copywrite and patent laws, etc..
I don't like Vista at all, Its to Big brothed out. I also have driver issues. And no HyperTerminal sucks
I see the praises of Mac Machines, But I see them needing the most help with computer issues?
__________$WMc%$____________
Apple did not "switch to the IBM hardware formate that windows uses", whatever that's supposed to mean. They changed CPUs because IBM and Motorola couldn't agree on what the next generation PPC should be, and neither company was living up to their promises. Apple has always kept their options open, and even considered an Intel CPU before choosing the PPC. The change was quick, because Apple had made sure to have an x86 version of OS X ready if they did decide to change. The Apple and "IBM" (even though it hasn't been for 15 years) hardware is not that different. They are both just computers. The difference is that Apple actively improves their computers, while everyone else plays follow the leader. Changes like USB and PCI are evolutionary. Apple moved in that direction because it made sense, even though NuBus is still superior to PCI in some ways. Changes like PCI offered (sometimes) what Apple has always offered, while simultaneously offering a larger choice.
I strongly disagree about Macs needing the most help with computer issues. I see things happening there: Mac users are often non-tech types (just like Windows users). They sometimes need help figuring out how to work a computer, set their alarm clock, etc. Windows users seem to have lower standards. They accept non-functioning or malfunctioning computers as normal, and don't seek help. Or many will simply not use anything but one or two programs. Mac users tend to use many programs.
I know you didn't mention price, but that keeps coming up. Since you mentioned cars, that's a good analogy - a Hyundai is less expensive than a Ferrari. They are both cars. The Ferrari must be overpriced. I guess people who pay for Ferrari's must be stupid. In other words, you can't directly compare Apple's hardware to a bargain-basement computer. And since they seem to hold up so well, Apple's are very low cost in terms of the time that most people keep them.
Microsoft has been crossed off my list not just because of what's wrong with them, but because they have sold their soul to the RIAA and MPAA. I can't accept a computer that I paid for telling me that I can't view the content, just because I don't have the "right" monitor, or because my video card has an analog output. Or that I can't play my music on anything but the built-in speakers. Or not at all. Apple and Linux don't treat me like a criminal. Microsoft does, and that's all I need to know.
Marka32 before you bash Microsoft about the RIAA and MPAA don't forget that MAC is probably the worst ones when it comes to your rights as a user. They lock thier OS down so you can not install it on any other computer besides a mac even thought it is the exact same hardware. Mac has made it illegal for you to even attempt to install OSX on any x86 hardware besides thier own over priced hardware. (Hyundai and Ferrari are not the same under the hood, Mac and any other x86 are) And don't forget about IPODs and how you can only save music on it using thier proprietary format. So please lump Mac in with Microsoft because they both do the samething when it comes to restricting users.
Jesse Massey said...
Marka32 before you bash Microsoft about the RIAA and MPAA don't forget that MAC is probably the worst ones when it comes to your rights as a user. They lock thier OS down so you can not install it on any other computer besides a mac even thought it is the exact same hardware. Mac has made it illegal for you to even attempt to install OSX on any x86 hardware besides thier own over priced hardware. (Hyundai and Ferrari are not the same under the hood, Mac and any other x86 are)
Actually, they are not "the exact same hardware". If they were, then OSX would install flawlessly on them. There are portions of the hardware and firmware that are different enough to preclude that happening (witness bootcamp having to install a BIOS emulator and undo 20 years of progress to even get Windows to boot). You don't seem to be able to look past the "Intel Inside" sticker. Simply because they use *similar* hardware, does not mean they are the same. If they were the same, then the people who hack OSX to run on whitebox hardware would not have to compile, modify or otherwise shoehorn other drivers in to make it all hang together, and Apple would not have to supply Windows drivers in their Bootcamp software set.
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
Jesse Massey said...
Marka32 before you bash Microsoft about the RIAA and MPAA don't forget that MAC is probably the worst ones when it comes to your rights as a user. They lock thier OS down so you can not install it on any other computer besides a mac even thought it is the exact same hardware. Mac has made it illegal for you to even attempt to install OSX on any x86 hardware besides thier own over priced hardware. (Hyundai and Ferrari are not the same under the hood, Mac and any other x86 are) And don't forget about IPODs and how you can only save music on it using thier proprietary format. So please lump Mac in with Microsoft because they both do the samething when it comes to restricting users.
Jesse
I guess you're right. I don't have to get permission to run OS X on my computer (not true for Windows), and it continues to work, even if I change hardware (again, not true on Windows). How restrictive of Apple to not interfere with me! I'm not sure who this "Mac" is that you're referring to, but he's never told me what I can and can't do on my computer. I'm not sure what over priced hardware you are referring to. A quick glance at the local Fry's ad shows that there are a lot of computers at the same or higher price than Apple. The fact that some fly-by-night company in China can make a computer and sell it for $200 doesn't make anything more expensive over-priced. Hyundai and Ferrari ARE the same under the hood - they both have metal engines, with pistons and screws and fuel injection and belts. They must be the same hardware.
I guess you're right about the iPods - clearly, Apple owns MP3 and AAC, and AAC isn't a standard that was developed outside of Apple, with no involvement from AT&T, Sony, or Nokia, and it isn't used in the Playstation, Wii, Nokia and Android phones. Unlike the other MP3 players, that use WMA, which Microsoft has NOTHING to do with. Nope. They didn't develop it, they don't own it. Not the least bit proprietary. (For the sarcasm impaired, this whole paragraph is sarcasm. Except these two sentences.)
You may want to look up stuff before you start spouting off. Getting your info from other Mac bashers doesn't make it fact. And while you're at it, have a look at your EULA. You don't own that OS on your computer, and Microsoft is within their rights to come to your house and take it back anytime they want to.
Let me point out again that I am not bashing any OS, I use them all and I enjoy them all. I am only responding to clarify a few of my points and to maybe expand your minds when it comes to hardware.
The only difference between a new Mac(x86 and beyond) and whitebox computer is the new mac does not have a BIOS instead it has a EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface). Once past this step on boot up the OSX runs on the exact same hardware as Linux or Windows that is designed for x86. Why did Apple choose to use EFI, 2 reasons: First reason is it allows a much faster hand off to the OS when you boot up the computer than BIOS can, Second and most importantly it stops people from using generic x86 computers. That is the only difference between the two. That is why many people have written a patch that emulates the EFI so that you can install OSX on any x86 computer. MAC hardware is not special in any way, i know MAC people want to believe this but it is simply not true.
The difference between the legal install of OSX and the bootleg version is only a few megabytes.
Marka32 maybe you have never read the EULA that you have to agree to but you do not have many rights when you install OSX. It states(you can read it for yourself if you want) that you are not allowed in any way to install the system on anything but a Apple computer. So your rights are not as great as you thing they are. And if you don't think that Apple uses a proprietary sound format than you are blind. I can buy any other music player and add and remove songs etc with out the thing getting in my way but iPods are designed to restrict you so you can only do it their way.
Apple and Microsoft both want the same thing from all of us and that is our money.
Currently I am posting on an OS that is neather Apple, Microsoft, or any type of Linux. Therefore, for the time being, I will not defend ether side. I have said it once and I will say it again: THIS IS COMPUTERS, NOT POLOTICS!!!!!!!!
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Microcontrolled said...
THIS IS COMPUTERS, NOT POLOTICS!!!!!!!!
Politics: "5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society " (Merriam Webster)
Politics: "Politics is a process by which groups of people make decisions." (Wikipedia)
Politics: "The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society."(The Free Dictionary)
Microcontrolled said...
THIS IS COMPUTERS, NOT POLOTICS!!!!!!!!
Politics: "5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society " (Merriam Webster)
Politics: "Politics is a process by which groups of people make decisions." (Wikipedia)
Politics: "The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society."(The Free Dictionary)
Isn't it?
Politics: "Politics is the art of being wrong. The name is based on the words Poly and Ticks, Poly meaning many, and ticks meaning blood sucking parasites." Uncyclopedia
Oh, come on! You know what I mean! Although I think that for diehard computer users OS chioce is as contriversal as govermental politics! I don't see what is so bad about Widndows, nor why everyone is so set against it. Those who are agianst Mac can say that it is overpriced, and those agianst Linux can say it is poorly supported. There is good and bad about all. That is all I have to say.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Just call me micro.
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Comments
Your frame of reference appears to be very narrow. Perhaps you ought to broaden your horizons a little and experiment with some of the other systems available. You may be pleasantly surprised.
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
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Gadget Gangster - Share your Electronic Projects
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Toys are microcontroled.
Robots are microcontroled.
I am microcontroled.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother. :-)
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
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I've had a linux install including X windows and WINE that fit in less than 30MB. You are not trying hard enough [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
Why? I wanted to try your Linux Propeller Tool!
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Toys are microcontroled.
Robots are microcontroled.
I am microcontroled.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother. :-)
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
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Linux: Not ready for the market and will not be until they try to focus on one thing and not million. They are good for single purpose machines (cheap firewalls etc.) but
as a main stream OS I do not see them doing very well. I have used most flavors of the OS and I feel like I have gone back in time with functionality. And I have never had one that was very stable as a desktop OS (server on the other hand is very stable).
Mac: Took BSD and focused. I enjoy OSX for the most part but as mentioned there are a few things that still needs to be fixed but will hopefully be fixed in the future (mainly issues with Active Directory) But I am not willing to pay twice as much for the exact same Intel hardware. When they release OSX to be 100% PC compatible they will win the OS war.
Windows XP: Can be a very good operating system if you slipstream it.
I work at a private school which translate to we have no money for computers. I am running all of the student computers on old 1ghz PIII 512MB Ram and have zero problems. You can not beat that with any system out there. For the teachers I build machines from scratch(P4 2 Core, 1GB ram) for a little over $300. Once again that is cheap. The biggest problem with WindowsXP is not the OS per say but all of the junk that vendors put on them to bring the price down(cough cough Dell).
Windows 7: Love it for the most part. I have been using it since the first beta copy and now the RC version. I have run it on a 3 year old Sony Vaio with zero problems(I did add 3gigs of ram).
Jesse
For the WIN (only Bill really wins) camp it seems that is the only OS they have used so it is the best. EVERYBODY has used Windows so anybody who has used another OS is not ignorant of what Windows is like.
For the MAC people (we know they live on a different planet) they have the excellent and exclusive MAC OS running on excellent and exclusive hardware but in a way they are locked in and have to make do.
I have used MACs since the LISA XL etc but changed over in the early 90's mainly for compatibility and affordability. They were sad days but the Windows era was dawning and application software was gushing over everywhere. True, I had used PC's before right from the dark dim XT ages but it just couldn't compare with the MAC. Since I retired the MACs back then I have been a Windows draftee as there was nothing else to choose from unless you were into Desktop publishing etc.
Ahh yes, and then there was Linux floating around, especially since the late 90's and it looked like it could fly sometimes. But what good was all that if it couldn't interface to you printer or other devices plus it didn't really have any solid applications that normal people used.
There are good and bad things to say about these three mainstream OSs and which one we use usually depends upon what we have to use. I'm surprised though by that remark about Linux not being ready for the market as I can thoroughly disagree since I have made the big shift myself and there is definitely no looking back at all, just big grins.
Like learning a new language it is usually too hard and too much bother to change your OS unless you are really motivated. Fortunately virtualization makes it easier to make that big switch, you can ease across gradually.
Of course we are all free to choose which OS we use but if you don't know anything about another OS then that's one less choice, and with only one choice there is effectively no choice.
*Peter*
OSX showed us that you can take a unix derivative OS and turn it into something usefull other than a server. OSX is a market ready solutions and is taking the PC market by storm even though you pay twice as much. Linux on the other hand are used mostly by individuals that don't mind searching for days for a simple driver or compiling their own. That is not a market ready home OS.
Once again I want to be clear that I am not bashing Linux. I continue to use them everyday but only for specialized situations. They could be a great alternative for people one day but I am not holding my breath.
Jesse
Decent word processor? I use OpenOffice for everything, documents, datasheets, spreadsheets, drawings, labels etc. If it's not a decent word processor then you must have some rather peculiar requirements that are not at all in keeping with the "home market".
Searching for drivers??? I think that used to be the way it was years ago but I haven't had to do that lately at all, the stuff just works. Windows is preloaded with umpteen million drivers for everything but the one you want. Take the FTDI drivers for instance, non-standard for Windows but preloaded into Ubuntu. It's a pretty rare thing for Linux to require a reboot too, it will quite happily update without disturbing you.
As to why Linux is not on every new machine I think anybody would be naive to think it's because that other OS is better. You know, I know, we know, that marketing clout requires $$$ and a virtual monopoly on the PC market is what is desired and has been achieved to date.
So please don't try to talk people down from trying alternatives just because the alternative doesn't suit you. I am speaking up for Linux because it definitely works for me, not as a network administrator but as a home and office user, and as an engineer.
Anyway, I'm not saying all this from a purely academic point of view. I can't afford to stuff about with drivers and OSes which is why I gave the previous OS the boot and booted up Linux instead.
*Peter*
OpenOffice is not a bad word processor etc but it is like using Office XP. Office XP is a great word processor but when you compare either one to Office 2007 for example it feels like you are going back in time. Does this make OpenOffice or Office XP a bad office suite? No, all of them basically do the exact same thing. How much better can you make a text editor. But users today expect a lot more than how it operates, they expect them to look good also. I know this sounds superficial and it is but it is how humans operate, why do you think the IPhone is so popular, is it not just a modern day cell phone like the rest of the new touch screen phones? But because it looks good and is easy to operate it is popular and people tend to like that. My point is people expect all word processors to do the same thing and they all pretty much do(except Edit, Vi, etc) so we look for one that is easier to operate, looks better and has all of the bells and whistles. Once again I am not bashing OpenOffice I have used it extensively and it gets the job done.
Drivers on the other hand still is a huge problem with linux. If you have tried to install it on as many machines as I have than you would understand it is still a problem and I know it is not 100% linux OSs fault but the fault of many hardware manufactures not creating drivers for it because Linux does not have the market share like MS and Mac has. Compared to OSX or Windows XP and now Windows 7 the driver base for these OS is huge and I rarely have an issue with either getting them or using the preinstalled ones.
Please don't get the impression that I am trying to talk anyone out of using any OS, if the OS works for you that is great. I like them all and have used them all on a day to day basis, I am merely trying to explain why Linux has not taken off as mush as MS and Mac OS have.
Jesse
PS. If you like Ubuntu you might want to look at openSuse if you have not already. To me it has been the most enjoyable Linux to date and is rock solid. Infact I am currently downloading the Suse Enterprise Desktop 11 trial as we speak.
Yeah, I've got tubs full of Linux flavors and openSuse too. I'm just d/l the latest 11.2 and I will try it out in a few minutes before I get some kip (sleep).
*Peter*
But if it's so good why did they ditch their own hardware and switch to the IBM hardware formate that windows uses?
They made the change pretty quit too.Much like they had bin peaking all along.The Apple and the IBM hardware were so different that Mac, In My opinion couldn't compete.
This is like Toyota in Nascar. Toyota flat out said they made their motor from the best of Dodge,Ford,and Chevy engines. I guess several thousand miles of ocean end all copywrite and patent laws, etc..
I don't like Vista at all, Its to Big brothed out. I also have driver issues. And no HyperTerminal sucks
I see the praises of Mac Machines, But I see them needing the most help with computer issues?
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re: I see great reviews of MAC machines But if it's so good why did they ditch their own hardware and switch to the IBM hardware format
Apple did not have their own hardware per se. They used the IBM Power PC chip to build their motherboards. While I am not privy to any inside information it is not too hard to see the reasoning for the move.
- The X86 chips are available from several suppliers at lower in cost.
- Peripheral chips are available from multiple suppliers.
- Far more add on cards were designed for the PC (PCI bus) than Apple could possibly provide. An X86 cpu and PCI bus provides access to them.
- Moving to an Intel compatible chip allows MAC users to run Windows directly or indirectly to access software not otherwise available.
re: Toyota flat out said they made their motor from the best of Dodge,Ford,and Chevy engines.
In spite of what you imply Toyota did not steal or violate any copyrights or patents from Ford, Chrysler, or GM. What they did was take the best and most reliable ideas, techniques, and designs available and incorporated them into their vehicles and production lines. For many years I drove vehicles that were manufactured by GM, Ford, Chrysler, and even AMC. I bought my first Toyota in 2004 for my wife, and because of the quality, reliability, and dealer service, I bought my second Toyota vehicle for myself in December 2007. So far I have not had a single problem with either. Wish I could say the same for my earlier vehicles. The list of problems is long.
- Could not drive through a small snow drift without the accessory belt coming off (Chrysler minivan)
- Dealer orders parts for warranty work, delays work until vehicle is out of warranty and then charges for it (Chrysler minivan)
- Transmission fails after 12-15K and replacements are no better. Replaced three times under warranty, once not (Chrysler )
- A high pitched whine reported to dealer on a new vehicle every time it went for regular service, but no problem ever found. It turned out to be
the alternator bearing, which was discovered when it seized up on the highway, causing intermittent deceleration and a cherry red alternator.
This was not covered by warranty in spite of being mentioned on every service order from when the van was new.(GM Astro van)
- Rear axle seals leaking at 58K. Dealer replaced seals (non warranty). Approximately 13K later new seals started to leak. Dealer replaced axle
assembly. Dealer and GM rep refused to cover any part of both repairs in spite of it being an obvious design defect. I later learned that the axle tubes
were made too thin, and the force of the U bolts clamping the axle to the leaf springs caused the axle tube to slowly deform. (GM Astro van)
PS - This happened on 5 out of 5 vans the company leased. No repair was ever done under warranty, and no service bulletin was ever issued for
the problem so almost all owners ended up paying nearly double ($780.00 for axle seals, $920.00 new axle) for repairs.
- My first new vehicle was a Ford, and it broke down so often for so many different problems that I got rid of it after less than 2 years. I might have taken
the dealer up on his excellent trade in offer if my neighbor had not bought a Ford (different model) and was having even more problems than I was.
That first experience with Ford left such a bad impression that I have never owned a Ford since.
All things said and done I think the big 3 are getting exactly what they deserve. They have been building over sized, poor quality gas guzzling behemoths and trying to push them on us with high priced advertising campaigns, while their competitors have built smaller, comfortable, good quality, economical vehicles that people actually want to buy.
I think the situation also speaks volumes about the ability and foresight of the overpaid management that ran these companies from the top to bankruptcy or near bankruptcy. With their salaries, bonuses, stock plans, and golden parachutes I am sure that they are doing just fine, thank you very much. Too bad we can't say the same about the rest of the folks in the auto industry.
To address your points..
Except all Apple machines come bolted with Intel Processors.. Next! And *loads* of them make PCI peripherals that are compatible with PPC processors/chipsets (like most). Next! And my PPC Mac (and many others) have both PCI and AGP slots that fit most PC compatible boards. Drivers for the Mac may be a bit of a challenge, but just install Linux and it's game over. It's not the architecture that is a limit here. Next! Closer, but VirtualPC did the job acceptably well and was well supported.
It's even simpler than that unfortunately. As IBM and Motorola stagnated with the PPC development (actually, more changed direction - The Cell is cool) it became less suitable as a desktop, and more importantly mobile, processor. The G5 just never scaled down to a low power, high clock speed mobile processor, and the Centrino combination (as much as it was/is a legacy hack of the PIII) smoked it. (Lets face it, the P-IV was a three legged dog, so they went back to a better architecture and just improved that - it's taken years, but they've finally leapfrogged AMD - For now)
If IBM had come up with a G5 that could compete on a MIPS/W basis I'd say odds on Apple would still be using the PPC. As it happened, that did not happen and Apple had to make the move. As OSX was built on a fairly portable basis (unlike the earlier incarnations of MacOS) it was "relatively" easy for them to make the switch. Lets face it, "Fat binaries" rock [noparse]:)[/noparse]
NT used to be multi-platform as well.. Once..
Would I buy another Mac? Absolutely. I could not get a "Windows PC - of any kind" of the same specifications for anywhere *near* the price.. and I run Linux on it, so I looked *really* hard. Seriously. I only bought the Mac for those reasons. My PPC Mac came later when I decided I wanted to support more than Linux with some software I've been working on. I've had loads of Macs over the years, but I've been using Linux as my main OS since '96.
My laptop is a Vaio (it's the smallest PC and with the best battery life that was available when I bought it, bar none). My Desktop is a Mac Mini (it's the smallest and quietest PC I could get with the specs I needed at the right price). If I wanted a generic "white box" (Cheap, size no object, noise no object) then I'd buy one.. I used to do that, but then I learned better.
I use WinXP in a VM for 2 applications - AutoCAD and Protel98 (Because there really are no alternatives at no cost right now - I already own both of them). If an alternative becomes available (as happened with my third Windows only application) then I'll probably make the jump there too.
Excuse the rant.. but most people already know I'm an OS bigot [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
Although I use Windows most of the time I am pretty much OS agnostic. I use Linux at home and deal with it and MacOS in the field. Before that I dealt with Unix and a variety of proprietary operating systems from DEC, Data General, HP, CPM, and others. They all have their good points as well as their drawbacks.
Apple did not "switch to the IBM hardware formate that windows uses", whatever that's supposed to mean. They changed CPUs because IBM and Motorola couldn't agree on what the next generation PPC should be, and neither company was living up to their promises. Apple has always kept their options open, and even considered an Intel CPU before choosing the PPC. The change was quick, because Apple had made sure to have an x86 version of OS X ready if they did decide to change. The Apple and "IBM" (even though it hasn't been for 15 years) hardware is not that different. They are both just computers. The difference is that Apple actively improves their computers, while everyone else plays follow the leader. Changes like USB and PCI are evolutionary. Apple moved in that direction because it made sense, even though NuBus is still superior to PCI in some ways. Changes like PCI offered (sometimes) what Apple has always offered, while simultaneously offering a larger choice.
I strongly disagree about Macs needing the most help with computer issues. I see things happening there: Mac users are often non-tech types (just like Windows users). They sometimes need help figuring out how to work a computer, set their alarm clock, etc. Windows users seem to have lower standards. They accept non-functioning or malfunctioning computers as normal, and don't seek help. Or many will simply not use anything but one or two programs. Mac users tend to use many programs.
I know you didn't mention price, but that keeps coming up. Since you mentioned cars, that's a good analogy - a Hyundai is less expensive than a Ferrari. They are both cars. The Ferrari must be overpriced. I guess people who pay for Ferrari's must be stupid. In other words, you can't directly compare Apple's hardware to a bargain-basement computer. And since they seem to hold up so well, Apple's are very low cost in terms of the time that most people keep them.
Microsoft has been crossed off my list not just because of what's wrong with them, but because they have sold their soul to the RIAA and MPAA. I can't accept a computer that I paid for telling me that I can't view the content, just because I don't have the "right" monitor, or because my video card has an analog output. Or that I can't play my music on anything but the built-in speakers. Or not at all. Apple and Linux don't treat me like a criminal. Microsoft does, and that's all I need to know.
Jesse
Actually, they are not "the exact same hardware". If they were, then OSX would install flawlessly on them. There are portions of the hardware and firmware that are different enough to preclude that happening (witness bootcamp having to install a BIOS emulator and undo 20 years of progress to even get Windows to boot). You don't seem to be able to look past the "Intel Inside" sticker. Simply because they use *similar* hardware, does not mean they are the same. If they were the same, then the people who hack OSX to run on whitebox hardware would not have to compile, modify or otherwise shoehorn other drivers in to make it all hang together, and Apple would not have to supply Windows drivers in their Bootcamp software set.
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
I guess you're right. I don't have to get permission to run OS X on my computer (not true for Windows), and it continues to work, even if I change hardware (again, not true on Windows). How restrictive of Apple to not interfere with me! I'm not sure who this "Mac" is that you're referring to, but he's never told me what I can and can't do on my computer. I'm not sure what over priced hardware you are referring to. A quick glance at the local Fry's ad shows that there are a lot of computers at the same or higher price than Apple. The fact that some fly-by-night company in China can make a computer and sell it for $200 doesn't make anything more expensive over-priced. Hyundai and Ferrari ARE the same under the hood - they both have metal engines, with pistons and screws and fuel injection and belts. They must be the same hardware.
I guess you're right about the iPods - clearly, Apple owns MP3 and AAC, and AAC isn't a standard that was developed outside of Apple, with no involvement from AT&T, Sony, or Nokia, and it isn't used in the Playstation, Wii, Nokia and Android phones. Unlike the other MP3 players, that use WMA, which Microsoft has NOTHING to do with. Nope. They didn't develop it, they don't own it. Not the least bit proprietary. (For the sarcasm impaired, this whole paragraph is sarcasm. Except these two sentences.)
You may want to look up stuff before you start spouting off. Getting your info from other Mac bashers doesn't make it fact. And while you're at it, have a look at your EULA. You don't own that OS on your computer, and Microsoft is within their rights to come to your house and take it back anytime they want to.
The only difference between a new Mac(x86 and beyond) and whitebox computer is the new mac does not have a BIOS instead it has a EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface). Once past this step on boot up the OSX runs on the exact same hardware as Linux or Windows that is designed for x86. Why did Apple choose to use EFI, 2 reasons: First reason is it allows a much faster hand off to the OS when you boot up the computer than BIOS can, Second and most importantly it stops people from using generic x86 computers. That is the only difference between the two. That is why many people have written a patch that emulates the EFI so that you can install OSX on any x86 computer. MAC hardware is not special in any way, i know MAC people want to believe this but it is simply not true.
The difference between the legal install of OSX and the bootleg version is only a few megabytes.
Marka32 maybe you have never read the EULA that you have to agree to but you do not have many rights when you install OSX. It states(you can read it for yourself if you want) that you are not allowed in any way to install the system on anything but a Apple computer. So your rights are not as great as you thing they are. And if you don't think that Apple uses a proprietary sound format than you are blind. I can buy any other music player and add and remove songs etc with out the thing getting in my way but iPods are designed to restrict you so you can only do it their way.
Apple and Microsoft both want the same thing from all of us and that is our money.
I hope you guys don't take this personal,
Jesse
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Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
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Politics: "5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society " (Merriam Webster)
Politics: "Politics is a process by which groups of people make decisions." (Wikipedia)
Politics: "The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society."(The Free Dictionary)
Isn't it?
Politics: "Politics is the art of being wrong. The name is based on the words Poly and Ticks, Poly meaning many, and ticks meaning blood sucking parasites." Uncyclopedia
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Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order.
Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··