Will the Coarse and Buggy Days ever end???
ElectricAye
Posts: 4,561
Steve Guggenheimer, vice president of the OEM division at Microsoft, had this to say about the upcoming new Windows:
"I think people will look back on Vista after the Windows 7 release and realize that there were actually a bunch of good things there. So it'll actually be interesting to see in two years what the perception is of Vista."
Ominous words, those. So I have to ask, "When will the Coarse and Buggy Days ever end?" Do the Microbuggy people forever live in denial? Will they ever snap out of their delusions and make something user friendly?
And if not, is there any chance Parallax will shift their emphasis toward using - you know - the other guys?
"I think people will look back on Vista after the Windows 7 release and realize that there were actually a bunch of good things there. So it'll actually be interesting to see in two years what the perception is of Vista."
Ominous words, those. So I have to ask, "When will the Coarse and Buggy Days ever end?" Do the Microbuggy people forever live in denial? Will they ever snap out of their delusions and make something user friendly?
And if not, is there any chance Parallax will shift their emphasis toward using - you know - the other guys?
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
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That's what I'm afraid of.
I know folks love their Macs, but that'd leave the rest of us having to put out big $$$ for new hardware, and having to learn to cope with a whole new set of bugs, AND the compatibility issues that we so often see Mac people struggling with.
Sure, Windows is a buggy kludge-filled excuse for an OS, but I don't see that moving to Mac brings any real benefits, and it does bring real costs.
I know it'd make for a terrible marketing problem, but I'd like to see MS invoke a total ban on adding new "features" to any of its software, and spend several years instead doing nothing but working to make the current software more reliable (and if that goes well, then faster too).
If people abandon the sinking ship of perpetually broken Windows, perhaps compatibility will no longer be a problem. Everything will simply work on Macs. Possible?
But Apple knows it can charge whatever it wants for its hardware and people will pay it, or enough people to make Apple's business model profitable.
-dan
Everything I read about 7 is very positive.
Ken
Here's my take on Computer Evolution:
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Sure. Here we go with the FUD again. While it's true that Macs aren't cheap, they are comparable in price to comparable hardware. If you don't mind cheap computers put together by slave labor from floor sweepings, then Macs will seem expensive to you.
I see very few "bugs" on the Mac. I install an OS and use it for years. On the Windows side, an install rarely makes it through one year before it's either falling apart or so clunky that it needs a fresh install. I've also been quite disappointed with the beta (or earlier) feel of most Windows software. I haven't seen anybody struggling with compatibility issues on Macs. Unless you're referring to issues with M$ produced files, and Windows users often struggle with that, too.
It seems a shame to waste all that great Parallax hardware on computers that cause people to spend more time getting things working than productive work. I would like to see them support all platforms equally, and let the end user decide how much time, money and headaches they want to invest in getting to enjoying their Parallax products.
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D Rat
Dave Ratcliff N6YEE
As a big thumbs up to Parallax, I'd like to say that their stuff seems to work pretty well on any Microbuggy I've ever used (a miracle, maybe? or Parallaxian Magic???), but I like Marka32's idea about supporting all platforms equally. If I didn't have to run Windows, I'd chuck it in a heartbeat. I sure hope Microbuggy's next combobulation works better than all the kludgey tripe they've force-fed us over the past two decades. But I sure ain't holding my breath on that one.
Care to expand on your claim? Specifically, sources to back your claim.
As for the compatibility issues, I was talking about working with electronic devices - the various Sparkfun thingies, rocketry altimeters, ham radio gear and so on. Compatibility complaints are fairly common in those areas (for example, look at the comments on the Sparkfun site re. their Pocket AVR programmer). Of course if the whole world were to shift over to Mac, as was suggested, that wouldn't be a problem, but the fact is that hasn't happened. Even if someone were to give me a Mac, I'd still also have to have a Windows machine to do what I do. (yes, I know that's unusual, and you can't blame Mac for that, but still it's the situation).
I agree with ElectricAye: it'd be nice if we had another good option - some fairly easy-to-(install and) use OS that was able to run commonly available software and devices and was stable and reliable. I suppose that some version of Linux might be it, but they've got to sell me better to get me to go that direction. It wouldn't take too much to get me to dump Windows, but Linux just hasn't convinced me yet.
I did look at the Sparkfun site. Seems that it's not entirely a Mac issue, and it is due to the USB coding on the programmer. I suspect that in many cases, it is a driver issue (not all USB-serial drivers are bug free, or available). Other times, it is that the programmer provided a Windows interface, then did a crappy port to the Mac. There are a few Mac programs that I quickly gave up on because they are so bad. Some devices have been tweaked to work with the quirks of USB and Windows, and fail when hooked up to a computer that behaves the way that it's supposed to (USB is not a real standard).
It is a shame that Linux simply hasn't been made to work as easily as the Mac (which is BSD Unix). Once they make it easy enough that an idiot can use it, Windows is likely to lose a large part of their already eroding market share. If you're the least bit competent, you should try a few different flavors of Linux. I've found that many computers that struggle under the bloat of XP soar under Linux. Some computers run great under one, but not the others.
This is easy with the Arduino - all the code is open source. It seems that the exact same tools are available for the Mac, Windows, and Linux. I can't blame Parallax for not giving away their code, but they should either get someone on it, or find a few people who would port it and make it available.
At this point I want to ask that if you continue down this path you do it constructively. Be respectful of the other person’s views even if he doesn’t agree with you. You can state you opinion without requiring someone else to feel the same way. I have some friends that complain because I don’t use Firefox or some other web browser. I use IE, not because I like it, but because I didn’t have to install anything to use it, it’s there and I am used to it. My friends say that is why Bill Gates is rich and the little guys don’t get a break. To be honest, I don’t care myself. For me it’s convenience and until I have a reason to change I probably won’t.
I will say that recently I considered getting a Mac Pro after reading several articles in Audio and Video magazines regarding the editing software on them. I was completely unprepared for the cost though. I guess I always assumed that Apple was the little guy and that they were cheaper than a PC. I was wrong, but I guess I should have known after the $600.00 iPhone that Apple does not equate to inexpensive.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
My only mac complaint (other than cost) is that there aren't as many applications available for it. There are also a few interface quirks on os X that drive me absolutely crazy (why are maximized scroll bars 5 pixels to the left of the screen edge? Why can't I have a proper right mouse button? How do I install things? What the heck is 'entourage'?)
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Gadget Gangster - Share your Electronic Projects
But okay, as long as Parallax isn't planning to abandon those of us who don't want to use Macs, it's all a moot point as far as I'm concerned. On to the next topic.
How many apps do you really need? There are already more than anybody could ever use. Do you really need 30 different word processors? The irony there is that most of the people complaining about that use only the apps that M$ gave them.
I use ALL of the major machines/OSes: XP, Win7, Linux (5 or so flavors) and Mac's too. I like (and hate) each one for various reasons.
And - respecting the guidance Chris just gave us - I'll invoke the rule that "if you have nothing positive to say about something, don't say anything."
I have *absolutely* nothing to say about OS2. :-P
[noparse]:)[/noparse])
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More on topic, though - What's the level of support for Parallax development software on Mac? My limited understanding was that you could get the Propeller Tool to work with a bit of jury rigging.
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Gadget Gangster - Share your Electronic Projects
I'm not a computer dude, so I'm whining out of ignorance here on why the software world works the way it does.... But Microsoft products never seem to progress in the way they FEEL. I learned to use the stuff back in the early 80's and everyone could forgive the crashy, kludgey, duct-tape-and-barbedwire-in-your-hair way they behaved because, after all, it was revolutionary... but, after roughly 30 years, they still FEEL the same way to me now as they did back then. In fact, Windows nowadays feels like something I kludged together with the Propeller on a first try - that's not a slam against Parallax, it's just that my rudimentary programming skills result in the same kludgey FEEL I get from Windows, and it baffles me that, after all these years, and especially with so many other products to learn from, the old mindset at Microsoft continues shamelessly unabated.
So my positive conclusion is that I'm sure glad Parallax isn't going to go nuts and leave all of us Windows XP, etc. users in the dust as Microsoft marches boldly onwards to their next "revolutionary" product.... right?
....right?
Also I can't afford to drop almost $2k for a fancy pants Mac. There is no way I can justify that kind of cash outlay when a $300 Windows box does the job quite nicely and is rock solid reliable.
Any Mac with USB (last 8 years?) can use the same mice as a beige box. The Propeller Tool doesn't work on a Mac, but BST, which seems to be almost identical, is available for Mac and Linux.
I have to agree about the Windows issue. I hate it when tools work with a particular setup and nothing else. It's not just the lack of Mac tools (in a few cases). I hate tools that work with 95, but not XP. Or, it requires XP, and there's no guarantee that it will work with the next version. Or, the new version works with Vista, but not XP. I hope that Parallax avoids that trap. Nothing like spending a weekend debugging your latest creation, only to discover that it's not 100% compatible with your OS.
It`s not so much that Vista is buggy (although it is), it`s having to relearn the 99% of things that really have not changed in function, but were shuffled around or renamed for no good reason. I have better things to do with my time.
If you have an Intel Mac, you can use a VM like VMWare or VirtualBox to install XP and run the propeller tool on that. If you have a PPC Mac and can locate an old copy of virtualpc you can do the same (although at the speed of Molasses on a winters morning). Mono can be installed on Macs and you can run the homespun command line compiler under that (although I'm not sure if that will work for PPC).
Almost everything I just said also applies to Linux on the same architectures.
You can also almost get the Propeller tool running on i386 processors under WINE (but that requires installing X on the Mac) and it has a number of nasty sharp edges that are tickled by WINE bugs or vice versa.
In any case it can be done. There are a few of us who don't (or refuse to) have access to Windows machines that manage to work with our propellers [noparse];)[/noparse]
propeller.wikispaces.com/Development+Tools
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Toys are microcontroled.
Robots are microcontroled.
I am microcontroled.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother. :-)
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While your favorite program may not be available on the Mac, there are often others that work as well.
Wrong there are no Mac versions of some of the software I use. So that makes it a game stopper for me right there.
Since a modern Mac (even the $500 Mac) can run Windows (virtual or direct), it's not such a big expense. Buy one Mac and run Windows when you have to. (A $300 Windows box, rock solid reliable? Cough, hack, hack gag! <g>)
Actually a modern mac is closer to a grand when you add in stuff like a keyboard, mouse, their over priced display, etc. There is no way I'm dropping a grand for a box that can't run my apps. And no I don't care about emulating them when I can buy a new Windows box that is half the price of a Mac and can run natively.
BTW my home built $300 Windows box is very reliable and has been for the last 4 years. And if melted down tomorrow I'd just get one at the second hand store for about $30.00, gut it and put in about $160.00 worth of new boards and such and I'm back in business.
You owe it to yourself to try a Mac sometime. It's the future of how all computers will someday treat human beings like living things... unless, of course, there is a global crash and freeze of all things Windows-based, leading to the complete collapse of civilization, mass extinctions, and a return to pre-agricultural subsistence before we ever make it that far.