FPGAs, CPLDs, and PSoCs

CounterRotatingProps

... still trying to get my head around these devices.

Recently, Leon mentioned the Xilinix Spartan 3·(Digilent has a starter kit·was ~90 USD, currently·~120 USD)...

Hands-on is usually·better, would you all recommend getting a starter Spartan 3 (or whatever), the·online docs, and just dive in?

Or any·book recommendations, something a bit more advanced than say a "Programmable Gate Arrays for Dummies"?

Re books - due to changes and advances, should·the book's·publication date be later than some specific year?


thanks for your advice

- Howard

[noparse][[/noparse]EDIT: Added "PSoC"]

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Post Edited (CounterRotatingProps) : 7/31/2009 3:52:04 PM GMT

Leon

This is a good 'cookbook' using Altera devices:

users.ece.gatech.edu/~hamblen/book/bookse.htm

I have a copy of the first edition and was able to do nearly all the exercises on a small FLEX10K10 device on a PCB I designed for myself.

The Digilent kit is still good value, Xilinx used to sell it themselves. The Spartan 3 is an old device and I wouldn't use it for a design, but is OK for learning purposes.

A simpler way to start is with a CPLD:

www.geocities.com/leon_heller/pld_starter.html

Leon

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CounterRotatingProps

Thanks Leon,

I was hoping you'd chime in here.

It seems like the Altera's are more expensive than the Xilinx devices, pound for pound so to speak?

> The Spartan 3 is an old device and I wouldn't use it for a design, but is OK for learning purposes.

If you needed to do some generic design (not necessarily heavy on mem, or dsp), but something that would be both good to learn on and actually use, what would you recommend?

Is it a false dichotomy to be concerned about starting with a particular manufacturer's device and being stuck with a development tool set that might not be applicable to a wider set of devices? (It's my understanding that there are programming tools that are good and others that are PITA's.)


> A simpler way to start is with a CPLD

Designing with FPGAs, I've read (perhaps on your pld_starter pages), require attention to time/throughput issues more than CPLD's - or is that putting it too simplistically?

thanks for your time,
- Howard

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Leon

A and X chips are about the same price, but the Altera boards are more expensive.

I'd get the S3 kit, you will find more applications for it that you can download.

It doesn't really matter what you start with, as VHDL and Verilog are the same whatever chips you use. The Altera software is much easier to use.

With FPGAs you need to spend a lot more time sorting out timing issues for critical applications. For simple stuff it might not matter.

Leon

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CounterRotatingProps

Well, this is getting interesting. I think I'd like to experiment with both CPLDs and FPGAs at the same time.

>It doesn't really matter what you start with, as VHDL and Verilog are the same whatever chips you use. The Altera software is much easier to use.

Good! The Altera boards are indeed expensive. I'm pretty comfortable dealing with a new, foreign software platform... is the Xilinix way so much worse as to steer you away from their less costly kits and eval boards?

RE the (FPGA) kits: each board seems to support a particular family, but I'm not clear if a kit necessarily supports all chips within that family. Take the recommended Spartan 3 (S3) for instance. It comes in 3, 3A, 3A DSP, 3AN, 3E, 3XL flavors (at least). Clearly the DSP version is bigger (484 CSBGA --- and if that's not a monster, how about 676 FBGA? [noparse]:)[/noparse]. Yet the other "3's" may have similar size packaging.

Let me guess the reply: something along the lines of ... aside from the ancillary/special functions (e.g. DSP, CAN) it doesn't matter which one because the underlying principles are the same?

RE: the CPLDs - they have X number macro cells and Y number of of gates. Is it correct that what you learn on a small one, like the XC9536, will apply in any case to larger devices, such as the Coolrunner-II XC2C512's (512 macro cells and a beefy 12,000 gates)?

I think the answer on that is also, yes?

OK, one more ... RE the programming languages. I've been contrasting VHDL and Verilog and I really don't see enough of a difference to swing me towards one or the other. Once you have a substantial amount of experience under your belt, which one would be preferable? Or is it really application specific?

- Howard

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Cluso99

I have an Avnet Xilinx Spartan 3A XC3S400A kit. Cost about $50. Really good kit. The Spartan 3 devices are older but by no means obsolete. The kit also has a PSOC kit included.

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm

CounterRotatingProps

Thanks for posting that, Cluso.· Not a bad bet at $50, eh? [noparse]:)[/noparse])
- H

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waltc

The Hamblen book is a good intro IMO. Lots of working examples of VHDL code and cheap - I got a used 1st edition for about $5.00 via Amazon.

CounterRotatingProps

Thanks waltc,

The Hamblen book's also out in a fairly new edition ... both editions focus on Altera's platforms.

Amazon searches for books on Xilinix platforms shows them to be more expensive, it seems - but most of all these types of books aren't cheap.

@Cluso - I've spent several hours last night and this morning reading up on PSoC devices. (I won't have had you not mentioned the Avnet S3+Cypress PSoC combo. --- It's all your fault [noparse]:)[/noparse])· But I forgive you because these PSoC's are so very cool.

Are you able to exercise that Cypress chip on the board fully, or is it really limited to just doing the boards USB-to-FPGA interface? (The docs I've found so far are unclear on that...) The kit does come with the MiniProg thing... so I assume you can noodle with the PSoC. If so, this kit is a real deal, even if these devices are older. The original one sold for only ~38 USD !

- H

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Cluso99

I havent played with the cypress ships. I think the code for the MiniProg is normally fixed but I saw a writeup that you could get the software from Avnet. The fpga is loaded by the usb directly from the pc without the miniprog. I have tested the capacitive buttons and they work fine. Just because the SPartan 3A is an alder generation does not make it any less useful. I was writing a cog emulation.

There are Avnet and Xilinx forums, but nothing is like the prop forum.

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm

mikediv

Hey guys I hope you don't mind me coming into this I just ordered the "" Avnet Xilinx Spartan 3A XC3S400A kit. Cost about $50"" I just couldn't resist the cost I have been wanting to get into FPGAs and CPLD devices for a while now but they just seemed so complicated
Clusso is there a decently priced CPLD kit available anywhere? I looked at the Xgamestaion but for almost 200 bucks not sure if its sort like my Hydra and geared toward gaming????
Is there anyone software package you guys can recommend for the 3A XCS400A Kit ,, did I read the documents correctly is there add on options for this kit as well?? Thanks

waltc

Counterrotatingprops:

The Hamblen book's VHDL code as far as I can tell isn't tied to any specific Altera specific product - most of it is non-hardware specific code(he also has a lot of it on his website so you can download it and check it out on Xilinx's s/w). The only thing close to that is his use of the UP1 board built in VGA port and such on a few projects. That can easily be changed to work on a Xilinx chip/board. I didn't have much of a problem getting it to work on my Max-II CPLD's.


Mikediv:

As far as CPLD's go here are a few kits:
For Altera's MAX-II's. Cost $69.00
http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=39&No=215
For Xilinx's XC and CoolRunner (both can had for about $40.00) and are availible from Avent as well
http://www.xilinx.com/products/boards_kits/cpld.htm

And the Max-II and Coolrunner are much more capable than that CPLD used in the Hydra.

The Avnet Spartan kit uses Xilinx's standard and free design software which is included in the kit. There is other design software available but its very, very expensive.

CounterRotatingProps

mikediv> Hey guys I hope you don't mind me coming into this

Of course not - welcome aboard! We're on a parallel course here as your question on CPLD's and waltc's reply answered my next questions before I asked [noparse]:)[/noparse])

waltc> The Hamblen book's VHDL code ... isn't tied to any specific Altera product

Thanks, that does indeed make it more suitable for learning.

... been reading up on Xilinx's Coolrunners - they look like a good starter and are pretty flexible.
For the XC's, don't forget Leon's DIY board posted earlier.
[noparse][[/noparse]EDIT: @Cluso - thanks for the clarification.· The PSoC's are really interesting as they mix analog and digitial, in fact, their other name is "Mixed Signal Arrays", AFAICT.· For what we all do around here, these devices seem to offer cool possibilities.]
cheers
- H

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Post Edited (CounterRotatingProps) : 7/27/2009 6:02:28 PM GMT

mikediv

WaltC thank you but is there one kit you would recommend over the others?
I went to http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=39&No=215
as you suggested but just want your opinion before I commit.. I have also ordered the· Avnet Xilinx Spartan 3A XC3S400A kit

I am not sure if these two kits are similar or if they are both something seperate that I should buy to learn CPLDs and FPGAs??
When I was reading up·on the MAX II Micro Kit - $69 it talks alot about it being the biggest CPLD but then also talks a lot about learning FPGAs??
I just do not have enough knowledge about this subject to make an informed decision so any help is very much appreciated I have ordered the Spartan 3A XC3S400A and it is on its way but was waiting to order the other kit until I can get some help thanks guys






Post Edited (mikediv) : 7/28/2009 12:37:51 AM GMT

CounterRotatingProps

Mike,

the Xilinx Spartan 3's an FPGA and the Altera MAX II is an CPLD. They do share some common concepts - see Leon Heller's "Starter" link second post from the top.

- H

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Leon

The MAX II is in fact a small FPGA with on-chip configuration memory, but is intended for CPLD applications. Altera plays down the FPGA architecture for marketing reasons.

It's a very nice device.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

mikediv

Thanks guys I ended up ordering both the FPGA and the CPLD kits..·they had 2 kits for the CPLD but I ended up going with the can you beleve the $35.00 kit
I wasn't trying to be cheap but they both looked like they did the same thing as far as learning goes and the 35 dollar kit came with a 16X2 LCD display
I cant wait to get started with both and worse case for another 50 bucks I can just buy the larger CPLD kit
Has anyone looked over or bought the Xgamesation is its purpose to teach game programing or CPLDs?
·

CounterRotatingProps

@Leon - thanks for the clarification re the maxII. I'm getting really sidetracked (in a good way) with the PSoC devices... have you worked with these at all? I'd be interested in any comments you'd like to share, if so.

@Mike - can you post a link to the $35 kit that has the LCD, please?

cheers
- H

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Cluso99

The Avnet Spartan kit is a great intro and low cost. You will need to download the latest Xilinx ISE software - be warned, it's a big download. It is a great entry kit with a decent FPGA to learn with. There are two forums, one on Xilinx and one on Avnet.

Now you will have to decide on Verilog or VHDL language. FWIW I have chosen Verilog. It seems to suit my needs so far.

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm

mikediv

Here you go ,,1 1 SK-CRII-L-G Xilinx
COOLRUNNER-II LOW POWER/COST STARTER KIT Lead Free: Yes
RoHS: Yes
Green: Yes NCNR $39.00 $39.00
Subtotal:
Tax:
Shipping:
Total:

$39.00
$3.24
$15.00
$57.24
You can see the kit was 35 dollars then tax then shipping but still with the 2X16LCD and the included software what a deal
Oh darn I just now really looked at the invoice they charged me 39 dollars for the base price but when you hit add to cart it states 35 dollars????? I thought the 39 was with tax but still a good deal

mikediv

Clusso can I ask is the software of choice Verilog good for both CPLDs and FPGAs????

And if you don't mind where can I download Xilinx ISE software

Post Edited (mikediv) : 7/29/2009 6:26:45 PM GMT

Leon

You can use VHDL or Verilog with CPLDs and FPGAs. You can also use schematic input.

Leon

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mikediv

Leon what do you mean sorry to ask so many questions but I am quite the newbie with this stuff and I appreciate all the information guys

Leon

Google?

Leon

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mikediv

Understand but you confused me with "You can also use schematic input."

Leon

Both Altera and Xilinx software allow you to create your design using logic symbols in a schematic. It's then compiled and loaded into the part in the usual way.

Leon

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CounterRotatingProps

Mike,

if you google enough you'll find those answers. (Leon's encouraging you to learn how to fish :-P· --- in my case, PSoC, I think he's expecting me to beach·a whale [noparse]:)[/noparse]


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=VHDL+or+Verilog+with+CPLDs+and+FPGAs.+You+can+also+use+schematic+input.&l=1


Still not clear *where* you bought that kit - was it via Xilinx or Avnet?

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benty

I just got the coolrunner II myself, even google hasn't helped me find much good info on starting out so its slow going so far. But the test program at least works


@counterrotatingprops

I got mine through Avnet since I dont think Xilinx sells directly to the public, though it was $39
http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store/em/EMController?langId=-1&storeId=500201&catalogId=500201&action=products&N=0&mfr=XLX&hrf=http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/SK-CRII-L-G.htm&term=SK-CRII-L-G

waltc

Xilinx has app notes for its CPLD's and FPGA's.

XESS is also good for tutorials and app notes, they are definitely work checking out:
http://www.xess.com/design_examples.php#XESS_Examples

Also check out these links:

http://members.optushome.com.au/jekent/FPGA.htm#Section5.1
John Kent's page on using FPGA's to build microprocessors also has some good links to tutorials and such.

http://www.fpga4fun.com/
Simple to complex projects using VHDL - the basic ones can adopted to fit Coolrunner or MaxII.

http://www.retroleum.co.uk/electronics-articles/
A 16mhz Z80 based retro computer that uses a Spartan FPGA. What makes it so interesting he documents the development and evolution of this project from using CPLD's to FPGA's.

Cluso99

The webpack version of Xilinx ICE (think thats it name) can be downloaded from Xilinx website free. IIRC I think it is almost 1GB !!! Altera have their own version also.

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm

mikediv

Guys // CLusso99 just got the cool runner kit in here is some photo for Clusso and whoever needs them the kit comes with all the stuff you see in the photos plus 2 CDs one is ISE Design Suite 10. DVD the second Coolrunner-II CPLD starter kit Resource CD

Its pretty awesome I have not dug into it but it comes with the 2 boards 1=2X16 LCD 1=Coolrunner eval board that has 4 7 segment displays and a blank 8 pin IC socket I dont know what is for yet. It also comes with a 9V battery clip, and a real nice USB retractable cable its really long over 3 feet

Thanks guys for all the help Clusso will let you know what I think as I dig into it
Hey Benty maybe we can collaborate since you have the same kit. I am brand new to this but it all seems very fascinating

Oh forgot I bought mine from Avnet in AZ but ordered online it came very fast 3 days since I ordered it if anyone wants the address just pm me.