The more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea;
1 - It adds complexity. More solder points. More parts. Now, you have to solder in a 40 Pin DIP, and a '40 Pin' pin header, AND a 40 pin socket
2 - It adds cost. The pin header / socket combination adds a few bucks to every project. Not a big deal if your project already $50. But it IS a big deal if your project isn't meant to be expensive.
Remember that the target builder probably doesn't own a soldering iron. He's not interested in modularity as much as he's interested in something that's easy to put together and inexpensive. Make it cheap for him to get started. Make it easy for him to be successful.
In dreamland, I'd have a single project board that's wired for every ucontroller. But a board that can support SX and Propeller should be do-able. If it's not, then we'll have to pick one ucontroller to support first.
Ha! You have taken me too literally. What I mean is that the average kit customer has basic skills. They may, in fact, have bought a soldering iron just to build this project. Or they have a crappy pencil iron in their junk drawer.
They'd buy a kit and learn how to solder, IF they find a kit they'd enjoy. Hang around the kit section of Fry's for a few hours - you'll see old people, young people, men, women, and children. They look at the kits; The AM Radio kit. The Water Detector kit. The simon says kit. They smirk, put it down, and walk away.
But chase them around the store and ask them why they didn't pick up a kit (Which I did a dozen times or so). They generally say they didn't see any kits that looked like fun. They want to see a kit that lets them cheat at guitar hero. Or make their own gameboy. Everyone I asked had a different idea of what kit they wanted.
So - my thought is:
Make it easy. the average builder doesn't have a lot of skill
Make it cheap. They're buying this for fun. They don't see the value in modular or flexible setups. They just want 'something that does something'
Offer a project they want. Every kit they wanted had already been built! But there was no incentive for the designer to share his project, and no place for the builder to easily find it. Even if he did find it, he'd have to figure out how to make his own PCB. He'd have to order 6 parts from mouser, 4 parts from Parallax, 2 parts from Digi-key, and so on. WAY too much to ask of someone who's just looking for a fun project.
And I know that once they get started build their first project, they'll say, "Wow, that wasn't that hard! Wonder if I can get it to help me cheat on Rock Band...". And you know where that leads [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Hey! Don't knock the crappy pencil irons! [noparse]:)[/noparse] I'm still using one. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Just got a request this morning for a kit that includes a Propeller, minikeyboard, and tiny screen.
It's time to get back on my GG project! Spent the day planning UPEW! (Need more hours in the day!)
{picturing Nick stopping strangers in Fry's to ask why they didn't buy something.. perfect! [noparse]:)[/noparse]}
You know what I hate most about the pencil iron? No stand!
You'd be surprised. I thought most people would be mildly annoyed, but they were pretty interested in chatting my ear off.
Fair amount of parallax stuff at frys! Sensors, boe bots. 'What is a microcontroller?' books. But most of the activity was around the kits. I think it will take a while for people to even think of checking fry's for sensors.
I got my first parallax kit from Fry's. I saw it, and it looked a little advanced, but I was inspired. Those first few weeks were probably the most fun I've ever had with electronics: learning that there is all sorts of cool stuff that you can do with a microcontroller, and how easy it is. Of course, reality stepped in and showed how difficult it is to design a system that works all the time in every situation, but that's life.
I suppose if asked why I didn't get any of the soldering electronics kits, I'd probably say that they're interesting, but a) I don't really have the skill to use them effectively, and b) why would I need a blinky LED dice kit? (or other).
I like the idea of special sockets for the micro's. I managed to get the crystal in place for the propeller , but it just seemed so far away from the chip when I got done!
I did a sample propeller setup on the full board, here (pdf). You might find it helpful, although it's not complete (needs a few more VCC / VDD connections to the chip and a heatsink on the VR). We should have a second project board designed by the end of the month. I think it will address a lot of the shortcomings of the current board (we'll keep stocking it, though [noparse]:)[/noparse])
This fills the rather significant void between the Education Kit and the ProtoBoard... without necessarily tying yourself into the various configurations of SpinStudio, which most guys really like, but not everybody.
I've noticed something that might serve your purposes rather well... RadioShack has stopped carrying most of their prototyping PCBs... but they are carrying a few Parallax peripherals... but not Propellers yet. Exactly how they expect to sell the Peripherals without Propellers isn't clear to me.
They might be interested in test marketing your stuff... particularly if you could offer kits on consignment.
If that is the case... and you don't have the bucks to supply on consignment... come back here with a stock offer[noparse]:)[/noparse]
We don't need no darned "Stimulus." Just make us an offer[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Sure. I'm not a huge fan of retail (not that I turn anything down), I think there's opportunity for educational sales, though. But the first thing is to build a catalog of projects! Once I can build a 'critical mass' of projects, it opens up a lot of opportunities for everyone involved.
Your board and a Prop... makes a kit. RadioShack has almost everything else. Give them a jingle... Believe it or not, they read this stuff... and they actually need a new prototyping board... you never know unless you try.
AND... they won't steal from you. Don't worry about patents and copyrights... if they like it, they will take care of everything for you and point you in the right direction.
I am new to the Forum, but have been tinkering with electronics since the late 60's early 70's. I have seen alot of changes, but the "Lame Kits" are still around.
Trying to get Bob or Sally off the street and into electronics sounds great, but I think the learning curve is out of the reality curve.
A market already exists world wide with the likes of us....we are just not focused into one point of light.
Take a leading product like the Stamp / Prop, and a great mother-board, and expand from there. Create a common set of "Rules" that every Kit (module) must live by...Same voltages (5V & 12V), same software, same connectors, bus etc. (I did this using cat-5 jacks and patch coards to connect my projects together) Then as it grows, everything works together. By adding different modules together, one could make Systems to do just about anything quickly!
Otherwise you just wind up with a disconnected assortment of Blinky-Lights and useless cricket sounds....This could be Plug & Play once you build enough modules. And everyone could create new modules that any other user could easly intigrate into thier world...Just like a CD or DVD works in any player...
As far as complete kits go...A good board, and a hard to find component or two is all that most would need...Go after the Low hanging fruit first ;o)
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The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. (Daniel Boorstin)
I was in RadioShack the other day to get some solder(for my prop boards!), and I glanced over and saw a BOE. I don't go to Radio Shack much, so naturally I was suprised to see a Parallax product in there. I say, go for it full force, Nick! You seem to be pretty good at making things happen. Get them on the ringer!
If someone wanted to list a 'Propeller' base with header sockets, they're perfectly free to do so. Then, anyone else could design add on modules that would have matching pins. Or the designer could publish a few matching modules as separate projects. Some builders will prefer a modular setup. Some will prefer just 'Things that do stuff'.
My hope is that, by providing an incentive for you to share a project you've already done, you'll put your project up on the site. By giving good money to the designer (about half of the gross margin), I'll encourage you to come up with really awesome projects. I'll encourage you to try both approaches (modular & not), and let builders choose what excites them the most. And, by assuming all the inventory risks, I free you to publish any wacky idea you think of.
I would short circuit a lot of that by designing modules and selling them to a retailer. I recognize that retail is a significant channel, but I think the best method of entry there is by 'productizing' the top selling kits (Of course, we'll have to negotiate rights with the designer and all that). That's well in the future, though.
Comments
Hey, that's what I said... Well, more or less. Perhaps a close relative...maybe distant? I third phill's idea. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
1 - It adds complexity. More solder points. More parts. Now, you have to solder in a 40 Pin DIP, and a '40 Pin' pin header, AND a 40 pin socket
2 - It adds cost. The pin header / socket combination adds a few bucks to every project. Not a big deal if your project already $50. But it IS a big deal if your project isn't meant to be expensive.
Remember that the target builder probably doesn't own a soldering iron. He's not interested in modularity as much as he's interested in something that's easy to put together and inexpensive. Make it cheap for him to get started. Make it easy for him to be successful.
In dreamland, I'd have a single project board that's wired for every ucontroller. But a board that can support SX and Propeller should be do-able. If it's not, then we'll have to pick one ucontroller to support first.
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How are they supposed to build any board, then? Unless they have wire wrappers (even more unlikely), it won't work without a soldering iron.
They'd buy a kit and learn how to solder, IF they find a kit they'd enjoy. Hang around the kit section of Fry's for a few hours - you'll see old people, young people, men, women, and children. They look at the kits; The AM Radio kit. The Water Detector kit. The simon says kit. They smirk, put it down, and walk away.
But chase them around the store and ask them why they didn't pick up a kit (Which I did a dozen times or so). They generally say they didn't see any kits that looked like fun. They want to see a kit that lets them cheat at guitar hero. Or make their own gameboy. Everyone I asked had a different idea of what kit they wanted.
So - my thought is:
- Make it easy. the average builder doesn't have a lot of skill
- Make it cheap. They're buying this for fun. They don't see the value in modular or flexible setups. They just want 'something that does something'
- Offer a project they want. Every kit they wanted had already been built! But there was no incentive for the designer to share his project, and no place for the builder to easily find it. Even if he did find it, he'd have to figure out how to make his own PCB. He'd have to order 6 parts from mouser, 4 parts from Parallax, 2 parts from Digi-key, and so on. WAY too much to ask of someone who's just looking for a fun project.
And I know that once they get started build their first project, they'll say, "Wow, that wasn't that hard! Wonder if I can get it to help me cheat on Rock Band...". And you know where that leads [noparse]:)[/noparse]▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
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Just got a request this morning for a kit that includes a Propeller, minikeyboard, and tiny screen.
It's time to get back on my GG project! Spent the day planning UPEW! (Need more hours in the day!)
{picturing Nick stopping strangers in Fry's to ask why they didn't buy something.. perfect! [noparse]:)[/noparse]}
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Check out: Protoboard Introduction , Propeller Cookbook 1.4 & Software Index
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
You'd be surprised. I thought most people would be mildly annoyed, but they were pretty interested in chatting my ear off.
Fair amount of parallax stuff at frys! Sensors, boe bots. 'What is a microcontroller?' books. But most of the activity was around the kits. I think it will take a while for people to even think of checking fry's for sensors.
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I suppose if asked why I didn't get any of the soldering electronics kits, I'd probably say that they're interesting, but a) I don't really have the skill to use them effectively, and b) why would I need a blinky LED dice kit? (or other).
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I like it...
...a lot[noparse]:)[/noparse]
This fills the rather significant void between the Education Kit and the ProtoBoard... without necessarily tying yourself into the various configurations of SpinStudio, which most guys really like, but not everybody.
I've noticed something that might serve your purposes rather well... RadioShack has stopped carrying most of their prototyping PCBs... but they are carrying a few Parallax peripherals... but not Propellers yet. Exactly how they expect to sell the Peripherals without Propellers isn't clear to me.
They might be interested in test marketing your stuff... particularly if you could offer kits on consignment.
If that is the case... and you don't have the bucks to supply on consignment... come back here with a stock offer[noparse]:)[/noparse]
We don't need no darned "Stimulus." Just make us an offer[noparse]:)[/noparse]
(You still need a link on Parallax's website.)
Rich
ILMP
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AND... they won't steal from you. Don't worry about patents and copyrights... if they like it, they will take care of everything for you and point you in the right direction.
Rich
Trying to get Bob or Sally off the street and into electronics sounds great, but I think the learning curve is out of the reality curve.
A market already exists world wide with the likes of us....we are just not focused into one point of light.
Take a leading product like the Stamp / Prop, and a great mother-board, and expand from there. Create a common set of "Rules" that every Kit (module) must live by...Same voltages (5V & 12V), same software, same connectors, bus etc. (I did this using cat-5 jacks and patch coards to connect my projects together) Then as it grows, everything works together. By adding different modules together, one could make Systems to do just about anything quickly!
Otherwise you just wind up with a disconnected assortment of Blinky-Lights and useless cricket sounds....This could be Plug & Play once you build enough modules. And everyone could create new modules that any other user could easly intigrate into thier world...Just like a CD or DVD works in any player...
As far as complete kits go...A good board, and a hard to find component or two is all that most would need...Go after the Low hanging fruit first ;o)
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There is something very similar for the prop called Spin Studio.
http://www.circellar.com/archives/priorityinterrupt/223.html
My hope is that, by providing an incentive for you to share a project you've already done, you'll put your project up on the site. By giving good money to the designer (about half of the gross margin), I'll encourage you to come up with really awesome projects. I'll encourage you to try both approaches (modular & not), and let builders choose what excites them the most. And, by assuming all the inventory risks, I free you to publish any wacky idea you think of.
I would short circuit a lot of that by designing modules and selling them to a retailer. I recognize that retail is a significant channel, but I think the best method of entry there is by 'productizing' the top selling kits (Of course, we'll have to negotiate rights with the designer and all that). That's well in the future, though.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
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