a hacker's lament/rant-- special offer inside
rjo_
Posts: 1,825
If I had a nickel for every idea I would like to pursue or every project I would like to do... I would have a lot of nickels.
Wait a minute... I do have a lot of nickels... not worth very much are they?
What I am trying to say is that I am too old to be able to manage 9 projects at a time... used to do it, can't anymore. Three or four is my limit. That is why I am constantly encouraging people... "don't just document your work... offer it up as a kit." If you don't want to be in business then at least offer up a limited number of kits. You don't even have to include all the parts... just the ones I can't get from Parallax.
Maybe Parallax would offer a "kit of the month club" if you guys would do the packaging.
We can all do the thinking... but if you are doing it... then I don't have to and I don't want to.
Or if you don't want to do kits... at least buy two of everything so that you can sell one to me[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I am a problem solver and I love problem solvers, which is why I come here so often.
Finally, if you have a project... and a track record... but you just don't have the cash... give me a ring. If it interests me and I haven't done it yet, ... I'll probably cover you for at least part of it...POC/COD of course[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rich
ILMP
Wait a minute... I do have a lot of nickels... not worth very much are they?
What I am trying to say is that I am too old to be able to manage 9 projects at a time... used to do it, can't anymore. Three or four is my limit. That is why I am constantly encouraging people... "don't just document your work... offer it up as a kit." If you don't want to be in business then at least offer up a limited number of kits. You don't even have to include all the parts... just the ones I can't get from Parallax.
Maybe Parallax would offer a "kit of the month club" if you guys would do the packaging.
We can all do the thinking... but if you are doing it... then I don't have to and I don't want to.
Or if you don't want to do kits... at least buy two of everything so that you can sell one to me[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I am a problem solver and I love problem solvers, which is why I come here so often.
Finally, if you have a project... and a track record... but you just don't have the cash... give me a ring. If it interests me and I haven't done it yet, ... I'll probably cover you for at least part of it...POC/COD of course[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rich
ILMP
Comments
I like Your Idea and I might be Your first customer
Can You post what You have?
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The Truth is out there············································ BoogerWoods, FL. USA
or did you mean... what have you done?
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I actually had so much going on that my accountant couldn't understand it... the IRS wasn't amused either[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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This is very close to something I wish we had here on the forums... funded projects.
It'd be amazing if someone funded production of various unique ideas and designs just to have them created and fully documented.
If someone were to purpose projects in a way that made people think in new ways.... new problems to be solved, new methods of doing things, and then people
submitted project ideas for review, and a single person chosen to complete the project... and if they were honest and actually sent in the completed project, then
they'd be refunded for the materials/shipping ect.
This would be a minor expense for a large company *hintPARALLAXhint* but would greatly encourage sales (people attempting the projects or attempting to reproduce
the project) and general goodwill amongst the forum users.
Another option is group projects. Take a very large project like the quad-rover or a sub or UAV or the like, break down the project into tasks and have forum members
complete the tasks and then refund them when they sent in the finished project.
Just a few ideas.
I meant What do You have to offer?
Would You like another to pick up a project You don't have time to complete?
I gess You have something on the back side, And the jokes on Me!
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PG
Anyway - anyone can post a project; you can learn more on my website - www.gadgetgangster.com. You can also pick up a project - many designed by people on the Parallax forums!
Nick
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I've recently re-organized all of my "stuff," so maybe I will be happier with my productivity in the future...
I haven't dropped any projects... and it would be hard to factor anything out, since many times I am doing stuff just to learn... not to produce anything of actual value or utility.
I see neat projects come and go... and then sort of get lost. It would be good to recycle them.
I wish someone would follow Phil around and every time he reports something to the forums... put it into a box and ship it to me[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Group projects make sense to me...
Most guys here find a way of getting stuff done, without any help. But we have students, youngsters and retirees that might have ideas that they would like to pursue, but can't because the hardware costs get them down.
Nick...
I'm in your corner. And I would like everyone to consider that maybe you won't make a lot of money, but in terms of giving back and sharing the effort, there will be a growing number of guys like me as the Prop attracts a more mass audience[noparse]:)[/noparse]
So, let's say one of the guys wants to list his project with you... what does he do? Exactly what is involved? Do you support the product or are they going to get stuck answering the same question over and over again? How do they know that they aren't dealing with a crook?
Are you pro-active... do you go out and pursue projects that you like or do you wait for people to call you?
Most people avoid trying to convert their hobby into a business for a variety of reasons, including the fact that they hate lawyers and will do almost anything to avoid them. And many are like me and would prefer to do nothing than to be cheated.
Rich
ILMP
(I don't want to sound prejudiced against lawyers... it is just that you can't trust them... this is a known fact[noparse]:)[/noparse].
The other challenge is that I don't carry custom PCB's. Designs have to be modified to fit on our boards. If you sign up as a designer, I'll mail you a 4 pack of boards, and you can see how well it will work for yourself.
Once you submit your project, we build it to make sure it works. Then, we publish it and create a support forum for it. But you're not required to provide support.
Once it's up, we take orders, package kits, flash EEPROM's, do shipping, etc. I kick back 20% of the sales price for your project. This may not sound like much, but take a project that I sell for $100. The cost of the parts to would be $50. The gross profit is $50. Of the gross profit, 5% goes to the credit card company, 40% goes to the you, 55% goes to us. And, we don't claim any rights or ownership to your idea. You're free to take it down, commercialize it, sell it somewhere else, whatever.
Most of our current efforts are on promoting the projects that have been listed. Running ads, doing media outreach, etc. Our secondary goal is getting designers signed up; we've been active on a few of the online communities (like this one), I also presented at OBC's propeller expo last August. Some designers choose to modify an existing design. Some do something totally different.
Anyway, the next step is to sign up as a designer so I can mail you a pack of project boards. That way, you can see if your project will fit. It's free - you can sign up here.
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I like your business model. I saw you at OBC's meet. The market is going to grow asymptotically... the only issue is when.
You really need a link on Parallax's site. It is sort of like a seal, without which people are going to be slow in coming to you.
And if they drop you... everyone else will too[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Why not offer PCB's? Keeping things neat and tidy is one of the big attractions of a kit. As an example, the video circuit is about as simple as it gets... but when I first got started, I tried to make one -- three times--and I barely managed to get one working after putting some potentiometers in there. I got one of Brian's little boards and presto-digito, I have rock solid video.
Admittedly, my soldering skills have improved a lot... but most people are going to be sloppy in the beginning and that is when they are going to be most interested in kits... no?
Rich
Post Edited (rjo_) : 2/9/2009 7:09:29 PM GMT
I agree on custom PCB's, it does make things tidier & easier. One thing we've done is began offering overlays. (like on this project). It really simplifies placement for the builder and minimizes the potential for mistakes. You can read about how to add them to your project here.
Problem with custom PCB's is that we'd have to decline posting most projects. It would create an inventory nightmare, it would take several weeks to publish a project, and not all designers have a lot of experience with Eagle or designing PCB's. It's a trade off, but I think generic boards will allow for more variety in projects & let ANYONE post a project.
Once you get a pack of boards, I think you'll see there are quite a few projects you can build on them. A lot of designs end up being quite tidy, too.
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PG
I have sample ICs of a few RFID reader chips, some sample C code, and even the gerber data for an evaluation board. I just never went past reviewing all the data since without knowing C, I couldn't continue. If I ever get the items gathered together from my plethora of "stuff" and put the SMT ICs onto DIP adapter boards, I would definitely consider turning it into a group project.
If the module is kept small (antenna would not be part of the module PCB) I can include them with another design to save material costs. (The PCB for my SHT11 and SHT15 modules currently on eBay were joined with another project as a "test coupon" so the PCB cost was $0.)
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
IT / Web / PCB / Audio
C isn't that hard to learn, I found it actually easier than BASIC. You just have to realize that it has many levels... its both a low level and a high level language combined.
It all depends on how "deep" you want to dive.
If you need help with C in the future just post on the forum... I'd be willing to help (Although I am quite rusty) and I'm sure many others would be as well.
rjo_:
What project exactly do you want someone to make? Can you clear up exactly what your offer is? (Sorry for being dense)
Nick:
I can't believe you don't have BS2s in your inventory!
This might be the time to learn C... I'm thinking about it[noparse]:)[/noparse] Comparing objects in Spin and C seems like it would make C pretty easy to learn.
Ugha: I'm already doing the kinds of projects I can think of... I like long involved projects, with lots of components that I can isolate... I'm trying to use everything in my ProPPhone project.
What I was really talking about is that I constantly see things that I would never have considered because I just don't have the depth of experience or technical capacity to conjure it up...
Many times they are simple projects... a good example of what I am talking about currently on the threads is Phil's sync board... there are a few other guys... some of them at Parallax that constantly post neat stuff that teach a concept or show how to use a component... and if the components were in front of me, I would build it just to get the knowledge firmly into my brain.
But I am not about to order a component here and a component there... wait for it all to get to me... try to keep it all orgainized while I'm waiting, etc. etc. If I could get it all in a box, fine. For me, the tactile experience of building helps the learning process... show me a diagram and I forget it in about 30 seconds, but when I build something, the facts get cemented in my brain a little better.
We also have people here who have almost no disposable cash... I was trying to say to them... hey, if it is neat and you want to put it all in a box and I haven't seen it before, I'll help defray your costs. Just another way to share the experience[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I've been looking at your name, trying to figure it out... my guess is that you are a Marine?
Rich
I had actually forgotten about Nick's stuff and will be looking there periodically. I think my note above explains it further if not, ask again.
Rich
And I would like beginners to get the concept that just by looking around and seeing what isn't available... and then making it available... they are no longer just customers, they are suppliers as well.
Parallax's approach and the overall quality of the forum community creates opportunities at every level that don't normally exist elsewhere.
Also, we'll help put a few bucks in your pocket. If you post a project that sells for $50 and we sell 100 kits, that's $1,000 in your pocket. I don't know how well your project will sell (we've only sold a few kits so far), but ladyada's drum machine sold 500+ units at $350 ea.
So - if you can design your project to fit our board, put it up!
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Actually my name doesn't really mean anything. Many moons ago (around 13 years) I was heavily into online fantasy games and needed a name for a caveman-like guy. From there it kind of stuck.
So your offer is basically for us to tell you our ideas for projects that we can't afford to do and then you'll select one or two ideas that sound cool to you and fund the research?
That's a very generous thing to offer... on behalf of all the other poor geeks out there... we thank you [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Would you like us to just list ideas in this forum, to PM you or contact you using some other method? Personally I'd like to seem them posted here so even if your not interested in a project, it may
inspire others.
Nick:
I'm seriously considering signing up, but I have a few questions.
A: How long do you intend to keep this going? You said that your not really selling any kits hardly... do you plan on closing up if this trend continues or are you mainly doing this out of love of
electronics?
B: If at some future time I request that you remove my project, will you?
C: Is the information I submit to you (address, email, ect) secure? Will you sell our information to other companies? (I've got enough viagra ads in my email every day as it is).
Finally I'd like to say that people like you, Nick, and rjo_... and mike green and all the other helpful people here... are what keeps struggling noobs like me full of hope of finally understanding
all this stuff one day and actually having a USE for it.
I'll put in a good word here. I must say, I've enjoyed my experience working with Nick so far. He's willing to trust you (he sent me a sample kit way back in the beginning and he sends out free boards to anybody who signs up), and he's prompt with any questions/purchases/submissions you may have. I'll admit it though, I did get a little bit of unexpected mail: A Christmas card from Gadget Gangster. Other than that though, no selling of names and contact information.
A:
I haven't yet sold a lot of kits, but I've exceeded my expectations so far. People will start buying kits when they find one that interests them - and that takes a decent selection.
My goal is to get more people excited about the hobby and help demystify electronics. A poor understanding of technology has caused too many bad policies, too much fear, too much frustration. I hope that, by offering a large selection of projects, the non-hobbyist will see something that's perfect for them. Something that gets them to pick up a soldering iron. I don't know what tomorrow might bring, but I plan to keep on working on this for the foreseeable future.
B:
We don't make any claims to your project. You're free to publish it under any license, remove it, update it, etc.
C:
We don't resell / share / transfer your data. Honestly, this would be the most expensive complicated scheme devised to gather email addresses! I might mail you a Christmas card, though [noparse]:)[/noparse].
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I just think that if you're going to go with the generic route, why try and put everything on a board that isn't meant for anything... I'm not saying stock 100 different types of boards, but stock maybe one propeller dedicated board, one SX, one Stamp, etc.. This way, it's easier on the kit developer, and end user to solder up, and it becomes less of a beast to tackle... My 2cents.
What would be nice is a board that has the propeller, EEPROM, crystal, and programming header on it, and on one side it brings out the 28 I/O pins in a row, along with +-. Then, the designer/user can just plug it into the generic board along the rows, easily giving each I/O pin a separate track and consolidating everything else. Of course, such a design would increase the vertical space required, but for some projects that would be okay.
But yeah, that's the next step. I've been eyeing eyeing your PropBoard, but I've been thinking of something slightly different;
1 board (same size as the full board). Most of the board is still the standard Grid array. But part of the board is dedicated to hooking up the uController. The uController section has hookup for Prop AND SX (like the Parallax Devlopment board). If possible, it could also support the Atmega 168.
As an example there would be holes for a resonator, and the AVR set of pins would be wired to those holes. The SX resonator pins would be wired to those holes, and so on. There would also be part of the board dedicated to power.
It's better than a snap-on CPU because it will allow for more inexpensive kits. It will also be more durable.
But honestly, I don't have the expertise to design the PCB. I'm willing to pay for the design, any takers? You can PM me.
Also, what connections should be on the board? What about;
2xRCA
1x3.5mm Stereo
PS/2
2x Potentiometer
Power Jack
The mounts would overlap (like how the RCA and DE-9 do now).
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As for what the board should have, here is what I think:
microcontroller
EEPROM
Crystal with short leads
reset button
regulators (3A 3.3v and 5v)
on LED (green)
Then, it should bring the pins out to the breadboard area...
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