You would then use a text editor to add the slave and relays to fire after each time:
@. 00.000 s
@, 13.000 a ' at 13.000 seconds
s 1,1,9,53 ' slave 1, relays 1, 9, 53 turn on
@, 17.500 b ' at 17.5 seconds
s 7,13 ' slave 7, relay 13 turns on
@, 31.000 c ' at 31.5 seconds
s 3,7,23 ' slave 3, relays 7, 23 turn on
etc.
Once this file has been created another program can convert it into a text file that can
be pasted into the propeller tool. The characters after each time are the keys you pressed
to save the time. I thought perhaps you could use it to indicate what type of firework
you want to set off.
You are the expert in this area so I am open to whatever suggestions you have.
Holy $h!! did that just get a hell of a lot simpler then i had expected it to be.
Next question, going off that, cause you just saved me what I expected to be days worth of work on the timing end of it.
Here are two ways I envision the entire show timing to go.
I hit start on the program, at 10 seconds in, a light will turn on or I will have something small ignite, at 15 seconds in, I will get another warning shot which is my cue to hit play on the music.
At this point, I can either edit the song list into a single track so it continues or at the end of the song, I will start a new program or there will be a delay in the show between each song to make sure I have the next song cued up and ready to go.
The other option and Im new to the propeller software so I don't know if it's possible, can I have the propeller control the music as well, something as simple as telling what MP3 to play when or is it easier to do the music manually. It would be nice if the software was controlling the music so if I have to hit pause for an actual fire (again, which does happen frequently so we are all prepared for them) the music will pause along with the current ignition sequence.
Yes, Anyone else that wants to chime in with suggestions or comments, please do so.
BTW, PHILL, thanks. I really hope everything works the way we are designing it to (mostly kwinn, I'm really just telling him what I want to do and he's telling me how to do it.)
Using the different key's is brilliant, I didn't even consider that. There will be probably 10 different types of device firing, mostly morters and mines, but there will be major variations of those two as well so splitting my vision of what's going to happen into different keys is great.
I think there is some free pyrotechnics simulation software out there too so I may go through and spend a weekend designing the show to the music on there and then run thru the time programming while it is playing so I can see what is going to be happening while i'm pressing the key times.
I am working on my CNC right now so I'm off to do that now. The X rails will be complete tonight and just have to build the bearing blocks for the Z rails and start welding where bolts aren't solid enough.
chaosgk, I'm glad you liked the idea. I am basically a lazy person so I like to make things as simple and easy as possible. The PC programs should be small
and simple to write which is a bonus.
This posting is getting long and the information somewhat scattered so I am going to try to gather everything together here. To that end I have attached 2
text files for the PC and prop software suggestions. I will also update the diagrams and post them as time permits and update them when changes are made.
To a great extent how you cue the music and coordinate things depends on what you are using to play the music. As I see it there are three possibilities
1 - The music is prerecorded on one continuous track that plays for the entire show.
2 - The music is played from a playlist that automatically goes on to the next song at the end of the song currently being played.
3 - Each song must be manually cued.
1 is very good in that the timing is preset and should not vary, so the entire show should be well synchronized with the music.
2 is also good if (and only if) the time to go from one song on the list to the next does not change. By that I mean the time to go from song A to song B
does not change when you play the list again.
3 is more difficult. I had envisioned downloading the entire show to the prop since you need a PC to do that. While you can use a laptop to do that I did
not think you would want to do so in the middle of the show. We could add a pause command to the software if you want to go that route. Then you would
press the start/pause button to continue when the next song was cued.
The prop can easily provide a signal (contact closing or opening) or a voltage out to pause the music when the show is paused. The hard part may be finding
a music player that will accept that signal and pause a track, and resume playing when the signal is removed.
If the music can be cued and paused by the prop I don't see any need for a light or warning shot. If not, I was thinking of a buzzer on the master console
followed by a LED 10 seconds later to start the music. In fact I wonder if the buzzer is needed. I am assuming that the music player will be next to or
part of the master console so you will press the start/pause button to start the show and the play button on the music player simultaneously. If this is
not the case please let me know what the setup is.
The music is probably going to be a continuous track. Even with computers, there could be a delay in the cueing of the next song for number 2. I could possibly use number three and manually start each song when the prop puts up the LED to show it is time to hit play.
Definitions: Arm: To apply power or ground to the system, enabling relays to to send power to the ignitors. Also known as taking the safety off. Ignition: When the electric matches recieve power causing a spark or flame. Ignitor: See Ematch (Electric Match) Ematch: The little chip with a nichrome wire covered in pyro comp that when it recieves power, the wire burns, in turn lighting the pyro comp.
Is either attached to a piece of green visco fuse or directly inserted in the lift charge of a device. Mortar: Any tube that contains one aerial shell with a lift charge attached to the bottom and a delay fuse attached to the shell.
Time varies from ignition to burst with the size of the shell and the effect desired Mine: A gound effect, usually consisting of a tube, plugged on one end. Just above the plug is a lift charge, on top of the lift charge are stars that are propelled up when the lift charge is ignited by either a visco fuse or E Match Burst: The actual explosion of a shell or ball. Fire: Just what it is, fire. Fire is used to describe a situation in the display field to indicate that something has gone wrong, resulting in unexpected flames. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
We try to keep the use of the word FIRE to a minimum so whenthere is an actual fire, no one is confused about what is going on. Master: The primary control board consisting of the Propeller board, slave drivers, master arm switches and indicator lights. Slave: The secondary control boards, containing status lights, receiver chips, TPIC chips, and an array of relays and RJ45 jacks,
Also contains a safety key switch to arm the distribution boards. Distribution board: The final board in the chain. This board consists of one RJ45 jack, and a terminal block.
May also contain contenuity LED's to show the status of the ignitors hooked up. Visco Fuse: Cannon fuse, most common type of fuse, burns consistently and at a fairly controlled speed, lots of fire and sparks. Delay Fuse: A special type of fuse that insulates the actual fire of the fuse from everything around it until it reaches the open end of the fuse.
Used to delay the time it takes for a shell to burst allowing it to lift to the correct height. Very specific burn speed and highly reliable fuse. Lift Charge: The powder in the bottom of most mines and morters that once ignited, causes the contents of the tube to be shot from the open end of the tube. Lifts the shell and also lights the delay fuse on the ball. Star:· This is the actual piece of the fireworks that you see when a shell bursts.· Consists of many different formulas of chemicals that burn with different colors or effects.· Is lit by the burst charge in a shell or the lift charge in a mine.
I have just put updated schematics in my earlier post. For the choice of putting all the music on one track or going with cuing each song manually, I leave the choice up to you. Personally I prefer the one track. Less chance of being distracted and missing a cue. Hmmm. I wonder if it would be possible to have a separate track with timing info for the prop.
What are you using to play the music and where is it located in relation to where the master console will be?
Well, I guess it depends on how I set everything up and distances I can push with the cat5 cable.
The Music will either run off a laptop, or off a professional CD player (which, by the way, does have a remote cue/start function)
If it is off the CD player, that will be with the sound system, about 300 feet away from the master console.
If the music runs off the laptop, that will be with the master console and I will use a signal line to run back to the sound system.
From the master, I will be pushing 200-300 feet to the slaves.
If using the laptop, I'm not sure what software I will use. I own a DJ company as well so we do have some cool music software on our machines, but it may just be winamp or something easy.
At the speed we will be running the serial data I don't think 300 feet is a problem. Probably can run 2 0r 3 times that. Do you know if the remote cue/start function on the CD player is a switch closure or a communications protocol of some kind? If you can send music 300 feet then serial data or on/off contacts should be no problem.
chaosgk, when you wire up the rj45 jacks from the master to the slaves make sure you are matching wire pairs in the cat5 cable to the signal pairs from the drivers. If you are using standard ethernet cables it is not pair 1 to pins 1 and 2, pair 2 to 3 and 4, etc. I can dig up the pinouts and send them if needed.
Yeah, I'll be wiring them in their correct pairs on the cat5,
which is, by the way. 1,2- 3,6- 4,5- 7,8 Orange, Green, Blue, Brown, assuming the B standard. If wiring in A, Orange and Green get reversed.
This is my area of expertise. We are currently in the middle of a project at work where we will be pulling about 100,000 feet of Cat6 and we have another project in a couple months of about 300,000 feet.
I will have to pull my audio mixer out and see how the auto start works on it. I would guess it is based on a simple voltage on and off type communication, nothing fancy.
I was pretty sure you had mentioned being involved in networking but I didn't have time to go through the entire thread to check so I thought I would mention it just to be sure. I won't worry about wiring any more.
It's the basic USB propeller dev board. Would there be any reason to order the proto board kit with the VGA and PS2 ports on it since the computer is going to control everything?· Will it display anything on the VGA that would be useful?
It's on it's way, and the CNC is just about done as well, the controller is in the mail and the X/Y axis's are ready.· Will be working on the Z axis tonight and this weekend so it should be ready when the driver shows up.
Should I order the extra keyboard/mouse option for it as well? ·
Depends on how fancy you make the master console. My idea was to have a console controlled from a laptop with only the key switch and a couple of push buttons and leds (run/pause, reset). It is possible to have a keyboard/mouse in and video display out on the master but it means a lot more software to develop. It may be simpler and cheaper to use a keyboard or numeric pad instead of the push buttons and leds, but having a display will add a bit of cost and complexity. What do you think?
Sounds like I don't need the keyboard/mouse/vga to me. [noparse]:)[/noparse] the prop board is on the way along with another 15 driver's and receivers. What size/type of capacitors do I need for the slaves, one of the guys mentioned earlier that I need caps to uncouple the chips.
I agree. Why go to all the trouble when the laptop can be used.
You should put a .01uF or .1uF near each chip.
If you are not putting a 6V battery in each slave to power the logic put a 1000 uF in each slave.
If you are not putting a battery in each slave for the igniter voltage (24V ?) put a 1000 uF in each slave.
just a quick note the .1uF near the chip should be as close as posible to each positive voltage pin. the prop qfn package has 4 positive power pins so 4 caps should be used. I usually keep caps within .2" but you don't have to be quiet that tight.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Do I need anything else for the prop board like putting capacitors on it like mctrivia said or is that for· different version?· I'll be ordering a bunch of caps today for the slaves, anything else you can think of that I may need for the slaves?· I think I will be running power from a main location to all of the slaves for both system power and relay power so I'll put caps on all of those. ·
are you planning to custom build everything? one alternative is use my propmod and place headers for the module. then you have everything needed for prop in a small package.
ps where did you get the relays I also do pyrotechnics and would like to build this for burning man 2010
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Yes, We are custom building all of the circuit boards and using the Propeller Development board to drive everything. I got the relays on ebay, 500 relays for $100 + shipping and 2000 surface mount LED's for $20. I'm getting the TPIC chips from digikey and the drivers and receivers are coming from a company in hong kong off ebay as well.
I'll check out your prop mod and get back to you.
What type of fireworks do you do?·
I'm sure when we get done designing and testing everything, we will post everything here for public use.· A lot of people have been helping me with this so it's the least I can do.
I have done a bit with flash pots for theatrical indoor displays and have built some of my own fireworks(usually a rocket body full of smaller fireworks). usually I just get what ever I can and build some big smoke bombs for ground effect
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
The prop protoboard does not need anything except perhaps resistors to go from 3.3 to 5 volts. Each of the line drivers/receivers will probably need bypass capacitors. I will check the specs tomorrow and get back to you.
Ya when I mentioned the caps you would need I though you were going to try to make your own board for the propeller. Around any ic there should be caps at every positive pin. so by each TPIC chip there should be a .1uF at each power supply pin. The protoboard or my propMod have the necisary caps already on the board.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Holy Smile does parallax ship out fast. I ordered the prop on friday and it showed up yesterday. mctrivia, if you want some instructions on building better pyro's, let me know, I won't give instructions on here, but personal email would be fine.
I would love to know how to make better ones. if you give me part number of relays you are using I would be willing to design your whole board and you could get them professionalaly made at 4pcb.com as first time customer
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by the way the top side of my secure propmod is fire retardant and if you ask I can make the bottom side also if you don't need uSD
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Comments
@ 00.000 s
@ 13.000 a
@ 17.500 b
@ 31.000 c
etc.
You would then use a text editor to add the slave and relays to fire after each time:
@. 00.000 s
@, 13.000 a ' at 13.000 seconds
s 1,1,9,53 ' slave 1, relays 1, 9, 53 turn on
@, 17.500 b ' at 17.5 seconds
s 7,13 ' slave 7, relay 13 turns on
@, 31.000 c ' at 31.5 seconds
s 3,7,23 ' slave 3, relays 7, 23 turn on
etc.
Once this file has been created another program can convert it into a text file that can
be pasted into the propeller tool. The characters after each time are the keys you pressed
to save the time. I thought perhaps you could use it to indicate what type of firework
you want to set off.
You are the expert in this area so I am open to whatever suggestions you have.
Next question, going off that, cause you just saved me what I expected to be days worth of work on the timing end of it.
Here are two ways I envision the entire show timing to go.
I hit start on the program, at 10 seconds in, a light will turn on or I will have something small ignite, at 15 seconds in, I will get another warning shot which is my cue to hit play on the music.
At this point, I can either edit the song list into a single track so it continues or at the end of the song, I will start a new program or there will be a delay in the show between each song to make sure I have the next song cued up and ready to go.
The other option and Im new to the propeller software so I don't know if it's possible, can I have the propeller control the music as well, something as simple as telling what MP3 to play when or is it easier to do the music manually. It would be nice if the software was controlling the music so if I have to hit pause for an actual fire (again, which does happen frequently so we are all prepared for them) the music will pause along with the current ignition sequence.
Yes, Anyone else that wants to chime in with suggestions or comments, please do so.
BTW, PHILL, thanks. I really hope everything works the way we are designing it to (mostly kwinn, I'm really just telling him what I want to do and he's telling me how to do it.)
Using the different key's is brilliant, I didn't even consider that. There will be probably 10 different types of device firing, mostly morters and mines, but there will be major variations of those two as well so splitting my vision of what's going to happen into different keys is great.
I think there is some free pyrotechnics simulation software out there too so I may go through and spend a weekend designing the show to the music on there and then run thru the time programming while it is playing so I can see what is going to be happening while i'm pressing the key times.
I am working on my CNC right now so I'm off to do that now. The X rails will be complete tonight and just have to build the bearing blocks for the Z rails and start welding where bolts aren't solid enough.
and simple to write which is a bonus.
This posting is getting long and the information somewhat scattered so I am going to try to gather everything together here. To that end I have attached 2
text files for the PC and prop software suggestions. I will also update the diagrams and post them as time permits and update them when changes are made.
To a great extent how you cue the music and coordinate things depends on what you are using to play the music. As I see it there are three possibilities
1 - The music is prerecorded on one continuous track that plays for the entire show.
2 - The music is played from a playlist that automatically goes on to the next song at the end of the song currently being played.
3 - Each song must be manually cued.
1 is very good in that the timing is preset and should not vary, so the entire show should be well synchronized with the music.
2 is also good if (and only if) the time to go from one song on the list to the next does not change. By that I mean the time to go from song A to song B
does not change when you play the list again.
3 is more difficult. I had envisioned downloading the entire show to the prop since you need a PC to do that. While you can use a laptop to do that I did
not think you would want to do so in the middle of the show. We could add a pause command to the software if you want to go that route. Then you would
press the start/pause button to continue when the next song was cued.
The prop can easily provide a signal (contact closing or opening) or a voltage out to pause the music when the show is paused. The hard part may be finding
a music player that will accept that signal and pause a track, and resume playing when the signal is removed.
If the music can be cued and paused by the prop I don't see any need for a light or warning shot. If not, I was thinking of a buzzer on the master console
followed by a LED 10 seconds later to start the music. In fact I wonder if the buzzer is needed. I am assuming that the music player will be next to or
part of the master console so you will press the start/pause button to start the show and the play button on the music player simultaneously. If this is
not the case please let me know what the setup is.
Post Edited (kwinn) : 3/14/2009 1:27:21 AM GMT
Arm: To apply power or ground to the system, enabling relays to to send power to the ignitors. Also known as taking the safety off.
Ignition: When the electric matches recieve power causing a spark or flame.
Ignitor: See Ematch (Electric Match)
Ematch: The little chip with a nichrome wire covered in pyro comp that when it recieves power, the wire burns, in turn lighting the pyro comp.
Is either attached to a piece of green visco fuse or directly inserted in the lift charge of a device.
Mortar: Any tube that contains one aerial shell with a lift charge attached to the bottom and a delay fuse attached to the shell.
Time varies from ignition to burst with the size of the shell and the effect desired
Mine: A gound effect, usually consisting of a tube, plugged on one end. Just above the plug is a lift charge, on top of the lift charge are stars that are propelled up when the lift charge is ignited by either a visco fuse or E Match
Burst: The actual explosion of a shell or ball.
Fire: Just what it is, fire. Fire is used to describe a situation in the display field to indicate that something has gone wrong, resulting in unexpected flames. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
We try to keep the use of the word FIRE to a minimum so whenthere is an actual fire, no one is confused about what is going on.
Master: The primary control board consisting of the Propeller board, slave drivers, master arm switches and indicator lights.
Slave: The secondary control boards, containing status lights, receiver chips, TPIC chips, and an array of relays and RJ45 jacks,
Also contains a safety key switch to arm the distribution boards.
Distribution board: The final board in the chain. This board consists of one RJ45 jack, and a terminal block.
May also contain contenuity LED's to show the status of the ignitors hooked up.
Visco Fuse: Cannon fuse, most common type of fuse, burns consistently and at a fairly controlled speed, lots of fire and sparks.
Delay Fuse: A special type of fuse that insulates the actual fire of the fuse from everything around it until it reaches the open end of the fuse.
Used to delay the time it takes for a shell to burst allowing it to lift to the correct height. Very specific burn speed and highly reliable fuse.
Lift Charge: The powder in the bottom of most mines and morters that once ignited, causes the contents of the tube to be shot from the open end of the tube. Lifts the shell and also lights the delay fuse on the ball.
Star:· This is the actual piece of the fireworks that you see when a shell bursts.· Consists of many different formulas of chemicals that burn with different colors or effects.· Is lit by the burst charge in a shell or the lift charge in a mine.
Post Edited (chaosgk) : 3/13/2009 10:39:13 PM GMT
What are you using to play the music and where is it located in relation to where the master console will be?
The Music will either run off a laptop, or off a professional CD player (which, by the way, does have a remote cue/start function)
If it is off the CD player, that will be with the sound system, about 300 feet away from the master console.
If the music runs off the laptop, that will be with the master console and I will use a signal line to run back to the sound system.
From the master, I will be pushing 200-300 feet to the slaves.
If using the laptop, I'm not sure what software I will use. I own a DJ company as well so we do have some cool music software on our machines, but it may just be winamp or something easy.
What is your preference?
which is, by the way. 1,2- 3,6- 4,5- 7,8 Orange, Green, Blue, Brown, assuming the B standard. If wiring in A, Orange and Green get reversed.
This is my area of expertise. We are currently in the middle of a project at work where we will be pulling about 100,000 feet of Cat6 and we have another project in a couple months of about 300,000 feet.
I will have to pull my audio mixer out and see how the auto start works on it. I would guess it is based on a simple voltage on and off type communication, nothing fancy.
http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/PropellerDevelopmentBoards/tabid/514/CategoryID/73/List/0/Level/a/ProductID/509/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName%2cProductName
It's the basic USB propeller dev board. Would there be any reason to order the proto board kit with the VGA and PS2 ports on it since the computer is going to control everything?· Will it display anything on the VGA that would be useful?
Should I order the extra keyboard/mouse option for it as well?
·
You should put a .01uF or .1uF near each chip.
If you are not putting a 6V battery in each slave to power the logic put a 1000 uF in each slave.
If you are not putting a battery in each slave for the igniter voltage (24V ?) put a 1000 uF in each slave.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
·
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=15&m=341159
ps where did you get the relays I also do pyrotechnics and would like to build this for burning man 2010
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Post Edited (mctrivia) : 4/6/2009 6:54:39 PM GMT
I'll check out your prop mod and get back to you.
What type of fireworks do you do?·
I'm sure when we get done designing and testing everything, we will post everything here for public use.· A lot of people have been helping me with this so it's the least I can do.
Post Edited (chaosgk) : 4/6/2009 9:22:38 PM GMT
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.