Ok, that makes more sense. However, the BASIC Stamp 2sx Module seen here www.parallax.com/Store/Sensors/CustomKits/tabid/134/CategoryID/9/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/9/Default.aspx
is listed for 50Mhz processor speed. Is there any difference between the 75Mhz and the 50Mhz in terms of the type of speed? I believe the question is, can we hot rod the BS2sx from 50 to 75Mhz, using a faster rated resonator, cooling the chip, and initially excluding the PBASIC statements that involve timing (also load programs at the original speed, perhaps with a dual function switch for 50 to 75)?
I see it now, thanks. Is there a way to determine the actual increase
in instructions per second with 75Mhz compared to 50, i.e. is it proportional?
Some stamps have higher ratings with less clock speed (BS2px).
The increase would be proportional, if clock speed is all you're changing. There's no way for any microcontroller to "know", without an additional reference, what its clock speed is or to "shift gears" without a change in firmware. Any discrepancies you see in clock speed vs. instructions-per-second for the various SX-based Stamps are a function of whether or not they use "turbo mode". Before you ask, the turbo mode selection is built into the firmware. There's nothing you can do externally to change it.
One difficulty you will be certain to have if you juice any Stamp's speed is EEPROM timing. If the default EEPROM clock is anywhere near the maximum rating of the EEPROM chip, increasing the Stamp's clock will push this beyond the specs, more than likely resulting in bad reads and program malfunction.
Frankly, I think you're wasting your time with this endeavor. There are more productive ways, as noted in other posts in this thread, to get smoking microcontroller performance with Parallax products. I would rank learning Spin and/or SX/B near the top of that list. For my part, I've said all I'm going to on this subject. Over and out.
You might be able to get up to 50Mhz in speed but you would need to stick with a resonator for one other reason that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you switch to an oscillator which you would need to do for 75Mhz operation you would also have to change the configuration bits in the SX processor. This would need to be done when it is programmed and is something that only Parallax can do when they program the chips.
You just have to stick within the constraints of the chip and also they way they have been programmed from the factory (Parallax).
As long as the EEPROM timing is ok, you had adjusted you timing in your code accordingly, and you get the image down on the EEPROM you should be able make something work. Why not? If you have the parts, time, and want to have some fun with it go right ahead.
There may be a few cases where you want to do this and might make sense but if you are looking to take a significant performance jump then I have to agree with Phil and would look at the SX processors themselves (using SX/B or assembly) or perhaps the Propeller. It all depends on what you intend to use the processor for. Sometimes the Propeller is a no-brainer and for others the SX chips have advantages over the Propeller and make more sense to use.
The resonator spec sheets show a frequency range rating, unlike a crystal which has a highly specific tuned frequency. I had hoped to be able to plug in another resonator replacing the original (using a BS2 OEM board) to get the 5% increase but as mentioned, it requires external circuitry. Any thoughts on the most simple way to create the circuit?
Phil - as I said time and time again, we don't want our microprocessors to take up smoking.. [noparse]:)[/noparse] hehe..
thanks for your valuable tips, and thanks sincerely for everyone's great suggestions. The information
and suggestions will guide this project along, suggesting many venues and options. Mike, this is only a
personal project of mine, for learning and academic reasons. I was not recommending others try this at
home! Top priority is always to see that no Basic Stamps are harmed in the process. I will attempt to
explain what I'm doing with the Hot Rod Stamp project.
The concept is simple. It took 6 years to find the car that fit my requirements. The day I saw it, it was
mine, and I bought it. The car was NOT the fastest and did not have all the latest wiz-bang bells and
whistles features. But it served my purpose, above and beyond everything I ever imagined. If I decided
to hot rod it, then why not? Many auto mechanics enjoy tinkering with their cars and it provides endless
hours of great satisfaction and enjoyable enlightening learning experiences.
The basic stamps are like my car. The ones I chose for the project are not the fastest. They may not
have all the latest wiz-bang features, but for my hobby purpose, they are beyond everything. They serve
all my needs, give me endless hours of enjoyable hobby tinkering, provide great satisfaction when
projects and studies are successfully completed, and result in an endless mind boggling cache of
experience, education, challenges, and exercise to relax the mind. I said it once, and I'll say it again - the
man that invented the Basic Stamp is one of the "greatest genius" of our time!
I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but this is NOT sacred ground. Others have been here before you! Take a look at some discontinued products from Scott Edwards at SEETRON, from his earlier days in business: http://www.seetron.com/obs.htm
Admittedly this was a BS-1 Hot Rod, but a Stamp Hot Rod none the less.
Regards,
Bruce Bates
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
When all else fails, try inserting a new battery.
I didn't see any related topics on parallel processer's,In the links You provided!! Are You sure the links are right?..Maybe My Browser settings are'nt showing Me the whole Page.????..I understand that this site is in the Beta test mode...I hope!!!...........
$WMc%, you asked for a link to Penguin Tech Magazines
and that's what I listed. Exactly what information are you
interested in? The thread is about Parallax processors,
not parallel processors. I suggest you start a new post
thread with your topic, or pm me if you want to provide
more information and discussion.
Post Edited (humanoido) : 11/9/2008 5:29:02 AM GMT
$WMc% said...
Have You thought about Parallel processer's ???. __Its just a thought__, But I have been thinking of away to use a BS2P for a (host controller) to control ( 8 )or more BS2's ..This would run along the lines that the Propeller uses. By "lines" I mean ( COG's ) or #of BS2's to control, asinging a BS2 to run for example a (keypad), another BS2 for a LCD , etc. I feel each BS2 could run a lot more than what I've listed,...
humanoido said...
Actually I have already done that, and I'm writing up the article to appear in one of the upcoming issues of Penguin Tech Magazine, which will be posted in the robot section of this forum when complete. Each BS2 (or other stamp variant) can run on a single wire (or optics) and that leaves 15 ports open. Most sensors, keyboard, display, RAM expansion, data logger, etc. are serial one wire devices, therefore yes a lot more can run off each microcontroller. Of course the circuits need to pay attention to other variables such as current draw, etc. What you may wish to do is begin thinking about useful, original, and creative apps for such a system, and plan various combinations of sensors and peripherals.
Post
___were is the parallel processer????________$WMc%____________confused by Your reply????_____
humanoido said...
Actually I have already done that,
and I'm writing up the article to appear in one of the upcoming
issues of Penguin Tech Magazine, which will be posted in the robot
section of this forum when complete.
The project is complete, though I wrote more software, added
more hardware, and now the article is being written and the movie
is being scripted. It's not posted and not linked now, though maybe
you can check back in the near future when PT#4 appears. I have
no schedule when this may happen - we don't have Daylight Savings
Time here. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I thank You for Your repliy,And the clearity on the Mag, Artc."Parallel Processer's"....I can't Wait to see it!!!!!.....I'm still working on the Math/Bus speed,As I would like to have VGA/NSTC ,Key pad,.Mouse,etc...If and when I can get the math to work out write,,I'll start on the HardWare...I would really like to see what You have done w/ the BS2 and Parallel Processer'ing???? This "Parallel Processin"·is'nt as easy as it sounds
________________Runnin the Numbers????____________$WMc%___________________
Thank you for your reply.
Your point is a good one and goes well with this
thread. Parallel processing can indeed increase the
power of a single Stamp.
The idea of parallel processing is not a new one,
and its use can become complicated. All I did was
take the abundance of outstanding documentation
offered by Parallax, and use it as a starting point.
My goal is to make a complicated process very
simple at the hobby level.
Some tips for keeping it simple, you can use serial
one wire peripheral and sensor devices. Even with
some serial devices that require multiple ports, the
overall number of hardware lines can be reduced
with software.
The math and bus speed is really easy to work out
and I'll have some new code examples with the
article. As an example, I took a very fast BS2px
and mixed it on the same line with a medium speed
BS2.
The parallel work concept becomes a powerful tool
for working with sensors and I/O expansion. This article
will appear in Penguin Tech #4 along with the code.
You'll see it soon.
For one example, you hear a lot about interrupts and
the ability or lack thereof to do several things at one
time. In parallel processing, you actually do many
things simultaneously. I take this one step further,
and parallel not only the hardware, but the software
too, by running several programs at the same time
on alternate processors. I'm not sure what to call this
duality in parallel processing. Maybe Simultaneously
Paralleled Software and Hardware Processing SPSHP?
There should be a more easily remembered acronym,
right?
Looking forward to see your approach.. because there are a lot of things to discuss
about the architecture of such a parallelism.. maybe there is need to establish a norma/interface or some algorithm to keep up the babysitting between the "cogs"- something like in
the common industrial PLCs in which when you plug some extra I/Os the system automatically sees them. I think from the point of the application developer he should see one·virtual system instead of·all, so it is the norma's work to distribute the processes. What do think? It has to been defined some infrastructure program that will be run during the bootup and will be remain resident, eh?
Perhaps this is the question: what is the most simple
way for one Basic Stamp to detect another?
For example, two basic stamps are connected together
with one I/O pin, Vss and Vdd. Both stamps switch
on at the same time or only one switches on.
I think a small polling routine that would query each
stamp and timeout if there's no reply, would determine
which stamps are talking. But I'm not sure if this is
the best approach as it uses some precious time. Any
alternate ideas?
How about detecting the presence or absence of a
power level at each stamp? Not sure how to
do that with lots of stamps. Any ideas for a simple
circuit?
Once the algorithm is working, the babysitter code
could modify its programming based on the number
of stamps that are connected and switched on.
I gave it some thought and came up with
a circuit idea that detects the high/low
power state of each stamp, which can
be read as a single binary number. It
could be reduced to 4 ports to read
8 stamps, 16 stamps with 5 ports, and
32 stamps with 6 ports. It would require
an extra circuit board with one to several
ICs. Or the babysitter stamp could use up
all its ports, without the circuit.
Got an idea that's more simple?
I was thinking of an architecture that a·master stamp could manage of up to eight slave stamps through bidirectional serial communication in the maximum bandwidth. This approach gives us 16x8=128 I/Os.
If the developer needs more ports than the programming one, slave 0 should should be responsible for the communications like serial, bluetooth or ethernet and give him the needed ports reducing the total I/Os respesctively, so as to connect intelligent periferals, etc.
The master stamp will run the parallel algorithm to allocate/distribute the processes and·decide for·the actions after taking the processed results from each slave.
So in a way of messaging between master-slaves, the whole system should behave like one unit. wht do u think?
real_polyfimos, you're describing what I've already built.
It's completed, and the youtube video is being made, showing
how it operates. I just completed a schematic showing the
basic unit. It will be shown with the article. But are these
Master-Slaves, Boss-Workers, or BabySitter-Daycare? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I'm improving the schematic and working on the proofing
edit for PT. Keep tuned to the forum for more.
The Supercomputer has 11 Basic Stamp computers - one
Master and 10 Workers. In theory and design, the interface
can handle unlimited additions of stamps, although in reality,
the power supply holds a current delivery limit.
Post Edited (humanoido) : 11/19/2008 9:11:29 AM GMT
Comments
www.parallax.com/Store/Sensors/CustomKits/tabid/134/CategoryID/9/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/9/Default.aspx
is listed for 50Mhz processor speed. Is there any difference between the 75Mhz and the 50Mhz in terms of the type of speed? I believe the question is, can we hot rod the BS2sx from 50 to 75Mhz, using a faster rated resonator, cooling the chip, and initially excluding the PBASIC statements that involve timing (also load programs at the original speed, perhaps with a dual function switch for 50 to 75)?
-Phil
in instructions per second with 75Mhz compared to 50, i.e. is it proportional?
Some stamps have higher ratings with less clock speed (BS2px).
One difficulty you will be certain to have if you juice any Stamp's speed is EEPROM timing. If the default EEPROM clock is anywhere near the maximum rating of the EEPROM chip, increasing the Stamp's clock will push this beyond the specs, more than likely resulting in bad reads and program malfunction.
Frankly, I think you're wasting your time with this endeavor. There are more productive ways, as noted in other posts in this thread, to get smoking microcontroller performance with Parallax products. I would rank learning Spin and/or SX/B near the top of that list. For my part, I've said all I'm going to on this subject. Over and out.
-Phil
You just have to stick within the constraints of the chip and also they way they have been programmed from the factory (Parallax).
As long as the EEPROM timing is ok, you had adjusted you timing in your code accordingly, and you get the image down on the EEPROM you should be able make something work. Why not? If you have the parts, time, and want to have some fun with it go right ahead.
There may be a few cases where you want to do this and might make sense but if you are looking to take a significant performance jump then I have to agree with Phil and would look at the SX processors themselves (using SX/B or assembly) or perhaps the Propeller. It all depends on what you intend to use the processor for. Sometimes the Propeller is a no-brainer and for others the SX chips have advantages over the Propeller and make more sense to use.
Robert
thanks for your valuable tips, and thanks sincerely for everyone's great suggestions. The information
and suggestions will guide this project along, suggesting many venues and options. Mike, this is only a
personal project of mine, for learning and academic reasons. I was not recommending others try this at
home! Top priority is always to see that no Basic Stamps are harmed in the process. I will attempt to
explain what I'm doing with the Hot Rod Stamp project.
The concept is simple. It took 6 years to find the car that fit my requirements. The day I saw it, it was
mine, and I bought it. The car was NOT the fastest and did not have all the latest wiz-bang bells and
whistles features. But it served my purpose, above and beyond everything I ever imagined. If I decided
to hot rod it, then why not? Many auto mechanics enjoy tinkering with their cars and it provides endless
hours of great satisfaction and enjoyable enlightening learning experiences.
The basic stamps are like my car. The ones I chose for the project are not the fastest. They may not
have all the latest wiz-bang features, but for my hobby purpose, they are beyond everything. They serve
all my needs, give me endless hours of enjoyable hobby tinkering, provide great satisfaction when
projects and studies are successfully completed, and result in an endless mind boggling cache of
experience, education, challenges, and exercise to relax the mind. I said it once, and I'll say it again - the
man that invented the Basic Stamp is one of the "greatest genius" of our time!
I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but this is NOT sacred ground. Others have been here before you! Take a look at some discontinued products from Scott Edwards at SEETRON, from his earlier days in business:
http://www.seetron.com/obs.htm
Admittedly this was a BS-1 Hot Rod, but a Stamp Hot Rod none the less.
Regards,
Bruce Bates
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
When all else fails, try inserting a new battery.
humanoido
I didn't see any related topics on parallel processer's,In the links You provided!! Are You sure the links are right?..Maybe My Browser settings are'nt showing Me the whole Page.????..I understand that this site is in the Beta test mode...I hope!!!...........
__________________________________$WMc%__________________
and that's what I listed. Exactly what information are you
interested in? The thread is about Parallax processors,
not parallel processors. I suggest you start a new post
thread with your topic, or pm me if you want to provide
more information and discussion.
Post Edited (humanoido) : 11/9/2008 5:29:02 AM GMT
$WMc% said...
Have You thought about Parallel processer's ???. __Its just a thought__, But I have been thinking of away to use a BS2P for a (host controller) to control ( 8 )or more BS2's ..This would run along the lines that the Propeller uses. By "lines" I mean ( COG's ) or #of BS2's to control, asinging a BS2 to run for example a (keypad), another BS2 for a LCD , etc. I feel each BS2 could run a lot more than what I've listed,...
humanoido said...
Actually I have already done that, and I'm writing up the article to appear in one of the upcoming issues of Penguin Tech Magazine, which will be posted in the robot section of this forum when complete. Each BS2 (or other stamp variant) can run on a single wire (or optics) and that leaves 15 ports open. Most sensors, keyboard, display, RAM expansion, data logger, etc. are serial one wire devices, therefore yes a lot more can run off each microcontroller. Of course the circuits need to pay attention to other variables such as current draw, etc. What you may wish to do is begin thinking about useful, original, and creative apps for such a system, and plan various combinations of sensors and peripherals.
Post
___were is the parallel processer????________$WMc%____________confused by Your reply????_____
Post Edited ($WMc%) : 11/9/2008 7:56:32 AM GMT
more hardware, and now the article is being written and the movie
is being scripted. It's not posted and not linked now, though maybe
you can check back in the near future when PT#4 appears. I have
no schedule when this may happen - we don't have Daylight Savings
Time here. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
humanoido
I thank You for Your repliy,And the clearity on the Mag, Artc."Parallel Processer's"....I can't Wait to see it!!!!!.....I'm still working on the Math/Bus speed,As I would like to have VGA/NSTC ,Key pad,.Mouse,etc...If and when I can get the math to work out write,,I'll start on the HardWare...I would really like to see what You have done w/ the BS2 and Parallel Processer'ing???? This "Parallel Processin"·is'nt as easy as it sounds
________________Runnin the Numbers????____________$WMc%___________________
Post Edited ($WMc%) : 11/10/2008 12:02:53 AM GMT
Thank you for your reply.
Your point is a good one and goes well with this
thread. Parallel processing can indeed increase the
power of a single Stamp.
The idea of parallel processing is not a new one,
and its use can become complicated. All I did was
take the abundance of outstanding documentation
offered by Parallax, and use it as a starting point.
My goal is to make a complicated process very
simple at the hobby level.
Some tips for keeping it simple, you can use serial
one wire peripheral and sensor devices. Even with
some serial devices that require multiple ports, the
overall number of hardware lines can be reduced
with software.
The math and bus speed is really easy to work out
and I'll have some new code examples with the
article. As an example, I took a very fast BS2px
and mixed it on the same line with a medium speed
BS2.
humanoido
for working with sensors and I/O expansion. This article
will appear in Penguin Tech #4 along with the code.
You'll see it soon.
For one example, you hear a lot about interrupts and
the ability or lack thereof to do several things at one
time. In parallel processing, you actually do many
things simultaneously. I take this one step further,
and parallel not only the hardware, but the software
too, by running several programs at the same time
on alternate processors. I'm not sure what to call this
duality in parallel processing. Maybe Simultaneously
Paralleled Software and Hardware Processing SPSHP?
There should be a more easily remembered acronym,
right?
about the architecture of such a parallelism.. maybe there is need to establish a norma/interface or some algorithm to keep up the babysitting between the "cogs"- something like in
the common industrial PLCs in which when you plug some extra I/Os the system automatically sees them. I think from the point of the application developer he should see one·virtual system instead of·all, so it is the norma's work to distribute the processes. What do think? It has to been defined some infrastructure program that will be run during the bootup and will be remain resident, eh?
way for one Basic Stamp to detect another?
For example, two basic stamps are connected together
with one I/O pin, Vss and Vdd. Both stamps switch
on at the same time or only one switches on.
I think a small polling routine that would query each
stamp and timeout if there's no reply, would determine
which stamps are talking. But I'm not sure if this is
the best approach as it uses some precious time. Any
alternate ideas?
How about detecting the presence or absence of a
power level at each stamp? Not sure how to
do that with lots of stamps. Any ideas for a simple
circuit?
Once the algorithm is working, the babysitter code
could modify its programming based on the number
of stamps that are connected and switched on.
a circuit idea that detects the high/low
power state of each stamp, which can
be read as a single binary number. It
could be reduced to 4 ports to read
8 stamps, 16 stamps with 5 ports, and
32 stamps with 6 ports. It would require
an extra circuit board with one to several
ICs. Or the babysitter stamp could use up
all its ports, without the circuit.
Got an idea that's more simple?
If the developer needs more ports than the programming one, slave 0 should should be responsible for the communications like serial, bluetooth or ethernet and give him the needed ports reducing the total I/Os respesctively, so as to connect intelligent periferals, etc.
The master stamp will run the parallel algorithm to allocate/distribute the processes and·decide for·the actions after taking the processed results from each slave.
So in a way of messaging between master-slaves, the whole system should behave like one unit. wht do u think?
It's completed, and the youtube video is being made, showing
how it operates. I just completed a schematic showing the
basic unit. It will be shown with the article. But are these
Master-Slaves, Boss-Workers, or BabySitter-Daycare? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=765140
The youtube video is here.
it.youtube.com/watch?v=huukEEwy-3E
I'm improving the schematic and working on the proofing
edit for PT. Keep tuned to the forum for more.
The Supercomputer has 11 Basic Stamp computers - one
Master and 10 Workers. In theory and design, the interface
can handle unlimited additions of stamps, although in reality,
the power supply holds a current delivery limit.
Post Edited (humanoido) : 11/19/2008 9:11:29 AM GMT