Tim: That's really cool. I think I've seen a video of one of those before (the big loops under the arms look familiar). I'm thinking I might have to build two of these - One to play with autonomous flight (self levelling, compass & GPS, camera, etc) and another one to be the Wolf Spyder project that I originally started this for. Both are compelling to me, and while they're quite similar, I never really intended the Spyder to be 'self piloting', but it's a cool challenge. I haven't decided yet.
Off topic, I write a video processing app for a friend of mine who runs a night club. (http://midivid.jasondorie.com) I really liked your DMX living room lights. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Cluso - Yeah, I've pretty seriously considered using EDFs for this thing, and still might try it. They're less efficient than props, but will produce much more speed when I'm in forward flight, and have the added bonus of the protective casing around the props. I'm not sure how responsive they'll be, but I've been itching to try it. Just the thought of that high pitched jet-like whine makes me smile. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Jason
Post Edited (JasonDorie) : 10/27/2008 8:28:57 PM GMT
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offence at my writing style
My final design will include 'mobile' props (like an Osprey), and in that case it's trivial to use vectoring for yaw control. If I made one with EDFs it wouldn't behave any differently, though it'd probably always have a slight amount of yaw dialled in to compensate for the higher rotational torque.
Hey Jason I ordered all the parts and built my subframe, Thaks for the info by the way, one more thing. What do you use for a remote control unit I have a few Futaba's for some monster trucks nothing serious the whole kit cost me under 150 bucks ·· Could use any info on which one you recommend. I also bought that 6 channel Ar controller basically I ordered everything we discussed I am also not clear on wether I need to order any extra stuff to mount the propellors
I ended up buying a few differant sizes becuase I went with bigger motors but nothing in the doc says anyhting about mounting the propellors??
Thanks man I will post it when I am done. ·
Sorry I didn't see this before - To mount the propellers to the motors you usually need a prop adaptor, but it depends on the motor (some come with them) so it's hard to say for sure.·· For the receiver, I just used whatever was around - The code I use doesn't require a specific receiver, as long as it has normal servo outputs you're good.· Keep the antenna wire away from the motors.· [noparse]:)[/noparse]
mikediv said...
Hey Jason I ordered all the parts and built my subframe, Thaks for the info by the way, one more thing. What do you use for a remote control unit I have a few Futaba's for some monster trucks nothing serious the whole kit cost me under 150 bucks
Do NOT use a ground radio for any type of aircraft, it is against FCC rules.
Also, if someone with a ground based vehicle see's you in the air and figures,
"heck he has an aircraft, I'm safe to switch on without checking"...well, let's say
everyone could be ducking for cover if he's on the same channel as you.
Very impressive! I saw some multi thousand dollar carbon fiber quad propeller thing and thought it would be really nice to have, even to make money with(building inspections). But yours, built for a few hundred dollars! Very nice.
How high have you flown it?
I haven't flown it terribly high yet (maybe 15 to 20 feet) but I don't have a yaw gyro on it yet, and have almost no indication of where the front is, so I'm not as confident with it as I should be. I've gathered all the parts I need to make version 3 of the hardware, so I should have a new version soonish.
I just saw you video - I followed the link from the Parallax page. Very nice work. I had a couple of quick questions...
MOTORS - are you using motors designed for electric RC planes (i.e brushless) or are you using cheaper motors that can be controlled with and H-bridge type motor controller.
REMOTE - I see that you are using a radio to control the Spyder. Is this necessary - meaning could you program the device to take-off, fly a set pattern and then land?
The motors are indeed brushless motors bought from a hobby store that supplies them for model airplane use, and the motor controllers are as well - they're interfaced using a modified version of the Servo_32 object that outputs 8 channels at ~200Hz (instead of 32 channels at 50Hz).
The Spyder does require a radio transmitter/receiver to fly it. In its current form, the Spyder is not self-stable. I fly model helicopters and set up the Spyder to control the same way, so I probably make it look easier to fly than it actually is. With clever programming and some good accelerometers it should be possible to make it self-levelling, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'd like to achieve that to see if I can do it, but my goal in building the Spyder was to make something that flew like my helis, not something that flew itself.
There are a number of other quad-copter projects out there, including Paparazzi (http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Main_Page), MikroCopter (http://www.mikrokopter.de), and others. Those are significantly more stable, but also more expensive. Most use a combination of GPS, altimeter, accelerometers, gyros, and thermal horizon sensors to get enough data for stable flight. I've seen video of a couple of those where the pilot sets down the remote, walks over and shoves it, and the copter recovers like nothing happened.
I have read through your forum and I must say it is an amazing project, even prior to seeing your project featured I had been planning on working on a simular project anyhow, so when I saw your project I was incredibly pleased. I must ask though, how did you prevent it from spinning? With the gyro I am able to KNOW when it is spinning, but I don't quite understand your system that prevents your from spinning. Would you mind clarifying please?
The complicated answer is that the props are counter-rotating in horizontal or vertical pairs, but rotate in the same direction as their diagonal counterpart. The front right and rear left props spin one way, and the front left and rear right spin the other way. If I speed up a diagonal pair of props, they don't tilt the machine, but they'll torque it in the direction opposite the direction they're spinning. Slowing down the other pair of props keeps the amount of lift the same, and also increases the torque effect.
Oh okay i understand how this works then, I was just always under the impression that propellers were built to only work in one direction of rotation. I assume I was incorrect then?
NoobMuncher - I buy the props in matched pairs where one made to rotate clockwise, and the counter-clockwise. It limits the selection somewhat, since it's harder to find props that are available as both 'normal' and 'counter-rotating'.
That's the key though - if the four props spun the same direction, their torque would sum, not cancel, and the thing would start to spin the moment it left the ground, like a helicopter without a tail rotor.
Any help with this would be appreciated, up until this post I had never really heard of this type of propeller, even though I understand the physics behind it.
Jason: Are you still here?
If so, could you answer a few questions please...
What motors are you using?
Are you using ESC or are you driving MOSFETs and if so, what is your configuration.
I have a TowerPro 2908GS-18T motor with 30A ESC that I was going to use for a flying wing. Do you think these would be suitable or do you have a better recommendation?
I was thinking it would be nicer to control the motor directly (via Mosfets) than to use an ESC, although this is more complex. Your thoughts?
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Woow Jeff, thats awesome but quite expensive and unfortunately only commercial FW without free source
let's put together our brains and start to build one like that with autopilot etc. and of course with free source.
Since this is a thread for completed projects we will need to open a new one, where we can continue to develop the 8cogHexaProp
Comments
Off topic, I write a video processing app for a friend of mine who runs a night club. (http://midivid.jasondorie.com) I really liked your DMX living room lights. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Cluso - Yeah, I've pretty seriously considered using EDFs for this thing, and still might try it. They're less efficient than props, but will produce much more speed when I'm in forward flight, and have the added bonus of the protective casing around the props. I'm not sure how responsive they'll be, but I've been itching to try it. Just the thought of that high pitched jet-like whine makes me smile. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Jason
Post Edited (JasonDorie) : 10/27/2008 8:28:57 PM GMT
I've drooled over that thought to, but then I couldn't find anywhere that had CW & CCW fans :-( If you know of any...
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.com
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offence at my writing style
My final design will include 'mobile' props (like an Osprey), and in that case it's trivial to use vectoring for yaw control. If I made one with EDFs it wouldn't behave any differently, though it'd probably always have a slight amount of yaw dialled in to compensate for the higher rotational torque.
Jason
·· Could use any info on which one you recommend. I also bought that 6 channel Ar controller basically I ordered everything we discussed I am also not clear on wether I need to order any extra stuff to mount the propellors
I ended up buying a few differant sizes becuase I went with bigger motors but nothing in the doc says anyhting about mounting the propellors??
Thanks man I will post it when I am done.
·
Sorry I didn't see this before - To mount the propellers to the motors you usually need a prop adaptor, but it depends on the motor (some come with them) so it's hard to say for sure.·· For the receiver, I just used whatever was around - The code I use doesn't require a specific receiver, as long as it has normal servo outputs you're good.· Keep the antenna wire away from the motors.· [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I've started modelling the final structure, and now have to work out how to build the thing, and mount the directional propellers:· http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2508658&l=4599c13ce7&id=671403972
Jason
Do NOT use a ground radio for any type of aircraft, it is against FCC rules.
Also, if someone with a ground based vehicle see's you in the air and figures,
"heck he has an aircraft, I'm safe to switch on without checking"...well, let's say
everyone could be ducking for cover if he's on the same channel as you.
Jason, nice job!
How high have you flown it?
Thanks,
Doug
Jason
I just saw you video - I followed the link from the Parallax page. Very nice work. I had a couple of quick questions...
MOTORS - are you using motors designed for electric RC planes (i.e brushless) or are you using cheaper motors that can be controlled with and H-bridge type motor controller.
REMOTE - I see that you are using a radio to control the Spyder. Is this necessary - meaning could you program the device to take-off, fly a set pattern and then land?
Dan (aka navillus5)
The motors are indeed brushless motors bought from a hobby store that supplies them for model airplane use, and the motor controllers are as well - they're interfaced using a modified version of the Servo_32 object that outputs 8 channels at ~200Hz (instead of 32 channels at 50Hz).
The Spyder does require a radio transmitter/receiver to fly it. In its current form, the Spyder is not self-stable. I fly model helicopters and set up the Spyder to control the same way, so I probably make it look easier to fly than it actually is. With clever programming and some good accelerometers it should be possible to make it self-levelling, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'd like to achieve that to see if I can do it, but my goal in building the Spyder was to make something that flew like my helis, not something that flew itself.
There are a number of other quad-copter projects out there, including Paparazzi (http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Main_Page), MikroCopter (http://www.mikrokopter.de), and others. Those are significantly more stable, but also more expensive. Most use a combination of GPS, altimeter, accelerometers, gyros, and thermal horizon sensors to get enough data for stable flight. I've seen video of a couple of those where the pilot sets down the remote, walks over and shoves it, and the copter recovers like nothing happened.
Jason
I have read through your forum and I must say it is an amazing project, even prior to seeing your project featured I had been planning on working on a simular project anyhow, so when I saw your project I was incredibly pleased. I must ask though, how did you prevent it from spinning? With the gyro I am able to KNOW when it is spinning, but I don't quite understand your system that prevents your from spinning. Would you mind clarifying please?
Thank you!
The complicated answer is that the props are counter-rotating in horizontal or vertical pairs, but rotate in the same direction as their diagonal counterpart. The front right and rear left props spin one way, and the front left and rear right spin the other way. If I speed up a diagonal pair of props, they don't tilt the machine, but they'll torque it in the direction opposite the direction they're spinning. Slowing down the other pair of props keeps the amount of lift the same, and also increases the torque effect.
Jason
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Parallax posesses power beyond belief.
Believe in it.
Visit me at
http://jrelectromech.services.officelive.com/default.aspx
·
That's the key though - if the four props spun the same direction, their torque would sum, not cancel, and the thing would start to spin the moment it left the ground, like a helicopter without a tail rotor.
Jason
Thank you!
http://www.wimp.com/thehexacopter/
If so, could you answer a few questions please...
What motors are you using?
Are you using ESC or are you driving MOSFETs and if so, what is your configuration.
I have a TowerPro 2908GS-18T motor with 30A ESC that I was going to use for a flying wing. Do you think these would be suitable or do you have a better recommendation?
I was thinking it would be nicer to control the motor directly (via Mosfets) than to use an ESC, although this is more complex. Your thoughts?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
let's put together our brains and start to build one like that with autopilot etc. and of course with free source.
Since this is a thread for completed projects we will need to open a new one, where we can continue to develop the 8cogHexaProp
Anybody seriously interested?
A QuadCopter or HexaCopter using Propeller(s) and Gyros, Accelerometers, Compass, Pressure & GPS
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=890157
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz