@ Ken : Just taking the TX/RX/RST/0V to four pins for a PropPlug would suit me, I have a PropPlug.
For the first-time user being encouraged into the Propeller camp I'd say USB ( esp as the PropPlug is 60% mark-up in the UK, was 25% more expensive than a ProtoBoard ). For another product I'm close to which has only serial programming there's complaint about not having USB / having to use USB to serial, and I expect that will only get worse with time.
Ideally, both 4-pin molex and USB products. I think there's two separate markets ( unless you can make the USB overhead so low it doesn't matter ).
Ken Gracey (Parallax) said...
Would you want such a super mini carrier (w/ Prop, EEPROM, crystal, I/O access) to include a USB programming port, or would a DB-9 be acceptable?
It·could be a·format like the·original Prop Stick, but with a 4-pin header (or just holes to mount one) for programming with the Prop Clip/Plug (without onboard FTDI).· That would be perfect for most of the App's I have.
I put DB-9 connectors on my Proto boards since I got a lot of free samples (MAX2323) and it works great...
I'm also playing with a lot of old computer hardware that does not have USB so DB-9 actually works better for me...
However keep in mind that a lot of new computers does not even come with a DB-9 serial connector anymore...
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
How much more would it be to add Chips two transistor interface to the board? If I recall, this is only a few extra bits, and works beautifully with a DB9 connection.
PS - I like the idea of a bare minimum board myself. The Proto board is tiny, but a smaller option (with just enough to run a prop) would be nice!
The USB circuit is expensive and all it does in my view is substitute a 20c DB-9 for a $3 small connector. This has driven up the cost of our boards significantly over recent years. The only problem with a PropPlug is that it adds yet another tool need for the newbie. Wouldn't it be nice just to plug in a battery and get started, not to worry about connectors, adapters and related junk that clogs a nice, simple system? For this reason I really prefer DB-9s, though even the 4-pin connector for PropPlug is nice if you can buy it once and use it to program many "miniProps" or whatever you want to call them.
I'd like something like the BS2 carrier board, but with the Prop circuitry.
No matter what we want to do, the programming interface always gets the most discussion at Parallax. What a headache. Just bring back the good ol' serial port.
Keep as many parts off of it as possible to keep the price low.·
Programming should initially be done with the prop plug or whatever. Once I have programmed them with a ‘boot loader’, there is no need for a Prop Programmer ,· then the applications are loaded from a SD card.
The ‘little’ cores I cut out of Proto Boards work great for Model Rocket Payloads, they fit perfectly in an Estes BT-55 body tube. When I’m not building payloads then these little ‘core modules’ are installed on a larger .1” spacing·perf board for other projects.
Just the 4 pin header as in the protoboard. The usb propplug (though a touch overpriced) is a one off cost. Better yet, use the same damn
usb to serial cable as everyone else seem to (the one made by FTDI) and put a pin header to match on the board. You can get those
from $20 or less from lots of places, so real cost must be reasonable for all those people to make some profit. And because it is so
widely used most anyone working with microcontrollers already has one of those.
Regarding the Arduino/Prop board cost comparisons, there's really not much that can be done except that you must pay for the performance and support you get with a Propeller. An Atmel chip cost a couple of bucks at most, and a Prop is a magnitude higher due to lower volume, the fact we're fabless, and because we've not yet got the volume to lower our costs. In fact, you can still thank the past success of the BASIC Stamp for being able to buy any of our Prop boards at the cost you can purchase them at today.
Please carry on the banter regarding price, features and anything else you want to talk about, and know that we're doing what we can for you guys. There's a lot at play here as you can imagine. Your squawking is appreciated. Ultimately we're fighting a very poor exchange rate with the RMB, increasing costs in China and the USA, and a choking VAT in Europe. I think the Euro customers are correct - a poor exchange rate often means the distributor nets the difference and no savings is passed to our customers. By the look of things on the surface, the USD/Euro exchange is putting our country on sale these days.
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
Yes Ken! ·
That in a Propeller Flavor would be excellent. Small size is important too. Would like to have access to all pins even if you have to double row the sides. And boy if you could hit that price!
I'm out running service calls for two hours and this conversation starts! AWESOME!
A parallax cut-down board would be very cool indeed! Four pins for a prop-plug
would be perfect for my use, but doesn't handle the issue well for evaluation
users. Couldn't a happy medium be found with a simple MAX3232 circuit with
a 9pin header that would interface to the existing 4pin connection?
Or maybe the dip holes for the MAX3232 with holes for the DB9 connection.
This would give the "happy medium" for a budget prop mini board.
Agree with mike, something like the Arduino mini but with double rows for the extra pins. You probably want to supply the board without the extra rows populated with pins so it fits in a breadboard. Then if you need the extra pins you can add headers.
I prefer also the prop plug connector. You could do something similar to
One advantage that an onboard USB interface confers is a ready source of power with little added bulk. With a DB9-style interface, a separate power supply has to be provided, either as a wall wart, or by the user from his bench supply. I'm not sure exactly how this compares cost-wise: Mini-USB connector and FTDI-chip on a small board vs. DB9 and power connector on a large board plus wall transformer. But it's something to consider. Also, absent the DB9 and power connector (assuming a miniature SMD 10MHz crystal), all the parts can be surface-mounted, precluding any hand- or wave-soldering steps.
Also, how unreasonable would it be for the Propeller, with an EEPROM-based bootloader, to handle low-level USB stuff on its own? The USB interface can operate down to 10kbaud (used for mice and keyboards, e.g.).
The absolute dirt-cheapest, if not entirely practical, programming interface may well be the PC's headphone output port. One channel could provide power, with the other providing a simplex serial port to be used in conjunction with an EEPROM-based bootloader. The latter would require only a few passive components to implement. Connection to the PC would be via a 1/8" stereo phone jack.
Ken Gracey (Parallax) said...
The USB circuit is expensive and all it does in my view is substitute a 20c DB-9 for a $3 small connector ... Just bring back the good ol' serial port.
I 100% agree with you. I personally prefer serial to USB but it seems we're in the minority.
In DB-9 plus MAX232 or transistor circuit versus USB-connector plus FTDI chip I'd opt for the former.
It is possible to implement a DB-9 circuit with the ability to plug in a PropPlug if desired. That gives the 'works out the box' use for those with serial capable PC's or who have USB-to-Serial cables plus USB via PropPlug programming if they don't or they choose that. Perhaps that's the best compromise ?
If the USB protoboard is ever spun I would recommend bringing out the flow control signals to test points so that they can be easily wired up to the propeller. I was thinking about a project where I could replace a TotalPhase Aardvark I2C/SPI adaptor with a USB protoboard, but would need the flow control for my application. (The propeller should be able to do a better job with less idle time between I2C/SPI bytes, plus Windows software could treat I2C/SPI just like a COM port for my application.) Has anyone tried to solder to the FTDI package?
@ Hippy: DB-9 + 4-pin for PropPlug is possible. It costs real estate and increases the size of the PCB of course.
The way we use these FTDI chips I'd say they're the real winner with our designs! Too bad there's no way to use a USB mini-B without the drivers and hardware that go along with it. I guess that's what a serial port is.
Phil, totally unique ideas. Such a board still needs power if the USB is disconnected, though, so it doesn't allow us to forgo a power supply all together.
I think the best thing is just to expose the 4 pins (or something similar) and allow the user to decide what the interface will be. A propplug or FTDI cable for USB (although it would be nice if the pinouts were compatible with each other) and an "RS232 prop plug," as was mentioned before, for serial ports. The chip-i/o-level pins pretty much allow people to do whatever they want without the additional cost on each board for the interface (like a bluetooth, XBee, or IRDA based programming interface). And, it allows the boards to become as small as possible
A form factor like the new pro mini Arduinos from Sparkfun would be useful.
Personally, I really like the FTDI cables with the built-in USB interface. You can get 5v and 3.3v versions.
you'd have to make a small adapter, but you'd only have to make it once! at $14....
Was onboard USB support considered for Prop II? I know that's off topic in this thread, but it'd sure help keep the cost of Protoboards down for the Prop II when it becomes available.
btw.... per OBC's suggestion.. MAX3232 in DIP form, it seems they are being phased out. I designed a SpinStudio Serial adapter based on this chip, now my main supplier (Mouser) seems to not carry it anymore. They say it's "Obsolete"
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
parts-man73 said...
Ybtw.... per OBC's suggestion.. MAX3232 in DIP form, it seems they are being phased out. I designed a SpinStudio Serial adapter based on this chip, now my main supplier (Mouser) seems to not carry it anymore. They say it's "Obsolete"
It looks like Digikey still has some (or at least a variant) but they aren't cheap.
I did a general search there and it looks like DIP versions that work in the 3v-3.3v range are few and far between - they are listed but as Non-Stock with minimum orders of 1000. It looks like there are still plenty of 5v chips out there. By the way, I've been very happy with chips from STMicroelectronics for these (but I don't remember a part number off hand).
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said...
The absolute dirt-cheapest, if not entirely practical, programming interface may well be the PC's headphone output port. One channel could provide power, with the other providing a simplex serial port to be used in conjunction with an EEPROM-based bootloader. The latter would require only a few passive components to implement. Connection to the PC would be via a 1/8" stereo phone jack.
Your gonna send power and data through a capacitor?
With a USB-powered design, a separate power supply could well be made optional. Something like this or this would work just fine, without having to provide a separate power input connector.
Ken Gracey (Parallax) said...
The way we use these FTDI chips I'd say they're the real winner with our designs! Too bad there's no way to use a USB mini-B without the drivers and hardware that go along with it. I guess that's what a serial port is.
Ken - All the more reason to write a USB bootloader for the next chip! You could do like Microchip do with the PICKit2 and make it a HID device for lack-of-drivers-ness - though I admit it's somewhat disconcerting to see my PIC programmer refereed to as a "Human Interface Device!"
The absolute dirt-cheapest, if not entirely practical, programming interface may well be the PC's headphone output port. One channel could provide power, with the other providing a simplex serial port to be used in conjunction with an EEPROM-based bootloader. The latter would require only a few passive components to implement. Connection to the PC would be via a 1/8" stereo phone jack.
...So a PICAxe-style Propeller programming interface?· Interesting thought.
trodoss said...
The absolute dirt-cheapest, if not entirely practical, programming interface may well be the PC's headphone output port. One channel could provide power, with the other providing a simplex serial port to be used in conjunction with an EEPROM-based bootloader. The latter would require only a few passive components to implement. Connection to the PC would be via a 1/8" stereo phone jack.
...So a PICAxe-style Propeller programming interface? Interesting thought.
No, this is slightly different; the PICAxe uses a RS232-to-headphone converter
interesting though, even though the PIC can communicate via USB, you still need to program them the same way you always have, with a $50+ device (which contain a PIC used to program the PIC if that makes sense), AVR programmers aren't cheap either... compared to those choices, the PropPlug seems cheap, and it's a one time investment if you opt for the Protoboard+PropPlug option.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
The PICKit is actually only $25; the thought I had, however, was for the next Prop to do USB on, say, pins B31 & B32, which would make the programmer the price of the conenctor
PS, Ken, any idea what kind of EEPROM will the Prop II use? Or don't we know?
Comments
Ken Gracey
For the first-time user being encouraged into the Propeller camp I'd say USB ( esp as the PropPlug is 60% mark-up in the UK, was 25% more expensive than a ProtoBoard ). For another product I'm close to which has only serial programming there's complaint about not having USB / having to use USB to serial, and I expect that will only get worse with time.
Ideally, both 4-pin molex and USB products. I think there's two separate markets ( unless you can make the USB overhead so low it doesn't matter ).
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardProMini
It·could be a·format like the·original Prop Stick, but with a 4-pin header (or just holes to mount one) for programming with the Prop Clip/Plug (without onboard FTDI).· That would be perfect for most of the App's I have.
Post Edited (trodoss) : 9/23/2008 3:43:09 PM GMT
I'm also playing with a lot of old computer hardware that does not have USB so DB-9 actually works better for me...
However keep in mind that a lot of new computers does not even come with a DB-9 serial connector anymore...
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
/Bamse
PS - I like the idea of a bare minimum board myself. The Proto board is tiny, but a smaller option (with just enough to run a prop) would be nice!
-Parsko
I'd like something like the BS2 carrier board, but with the Prop circuitry.
No matter what we want to do, the programming interface always gets the most discussion at Parallax. What a headache. Just bring back the good ol' serial port.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Programming should initially be done with the prop plug or whatever. Once I have programmed them with a ‘boot loader’, there is no need for a Prop Programmer ,· then the applications are loaded from a SD card.
The ‘little’ cores I cut out of Proto Boards work great for Model Rocket Payloads, they fit perfectly in an Estes BT-55 body tube. When I’m not building payloads then these little ‘core modules’ are installed on a larger .1” spacing·perf board for other projects.
Thanks for listening to us babble Ken!
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Mike
usb to serial cable as everyone else seem to (the one made by FTDI) and put a pin header to match on the board. You can get those
from $20 or less from lots of places, so real cost must be reasonable for all those people to make some profit. And because it is so
widely used most anyone working with microcontrollers already has one of those.
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---
Jo
Please carry on the banter regarding price, features and anything else you want to talk about, and know that we're doing what we can for you guys. There's a lot at play here as you can imagine. Your squawking is appreciated. Ultimately we're fighting a very poor exchange rate with the RMB, increasing costs in China and the USA, and a choking VAT in Europe. I think the Euro customers are correct - a poor exchange rate often means the distributor nets the difference and no savings is passed to our customers. By the look of things on the surface, the USD/Euro exchange is putting our country on sale these days.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
http://www.arduino.cc/
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
/Bamse
·
That in a Propeller Flavor would be excellent. Small size is important too. Would like to have access to all pins even if you have to double row the sides. And boy if you could hit that price!
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Mike
A parallax cut-down board would be very cool indeed! Four pins for a prop-plug
would be perfect for my use, but doesn't handle the issue well for evaluation
users. Couldn't a happy medium be found with a simple MAX3232 circuit with
a 9pin header that would interface to the existing 4pin connection?
Or maybe the dip holes for the MAX3232 with holes for the DB9 connection.
This would give the "happy medium" for a budget prop mini board.
I love where this is going...
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
I prefer also the prop plug connector. You could do something similar to
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=449
that plugs into the prop plug connector.
Also, how unreasonable would it be for the Propeller, with an EEPROM-based bootloader, to handle low-level USB stuff on its own? The USB interface can operate down to 10kbaud (used for mice and keyboards, e.g.).
The absolute dirt-cheapest, if not entirely practical, programming interface may well be the PC's headphone output port. One channel could provide power, with the other providing a simplex serial port to be used in conjunction with an EEPROM-based bootloader. The latter would require only a few passive components to implement. Connection to the PC would be via a 1/8" stereo phone jack.
-Phil
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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!
I 100% agree with you. I personally prefer serial to USB but it seems we're in the minority.
In DB-9 plus MAX232 or transistor circuit versus USB-connector plus FTDI chip I'd opt for the former.
It is possible to implement a DB-9 circuit with the ability to plug in a PropPlug if desired. That gives the 'works out the box' use for those with serial capable PC's or who have USB-to-Serial cables plus USB via PropPlug programming if they don't or they choose that. Perhaps that's the best compromise ?
The way we use these FTDI chips I'd say they're the real winner with our designs! Too bad there's no way to use a USB mini-B without the drivers and hardware that go along with it. I guess that's what a serial port is.
Phil, totally unique ideas. Such a board still needs power if the USB is disconnected, though, so it doesn't allow us to forgo a power supply all together.
Ken Gracey
A form factor like the new pro mini Arduinos from Sparkfun would be useful.
Personally, I really like the FTDI cables with the built-in USB interface. You can get 5v and 3.3v versions.
www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8772
you'd have to make a small adapter, but you'd only have to make it once! at $14....
Was onboard USB support considered for Prop II? I know that's off topic in this thread, but it'd sure help keep the cost of Protoboards down for the Prop II when it becomes available.
btw.... per OBC's suggestion.. MAX3232 in DIP form, it seems they are being phased out. I designed a SpinStudio Serial adapter based on this chip, now my main supplier (Mouser) seems to not carry it anymore. They say it's "Obsolete"
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
It looks like Digikey still has some (or at least a variant) but they aren't cheap.
I did a general search there and it looks like DIP versions that work in the 3v-3.3v range are few and far between - they are listed but as Non-Stock with minimum orders of 1000. It looks like there are still plenty of 5v chips out there. By the way, I've been very happy with chips from STMicroelectronics for these (but I don't remember a part number off hand).
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
Yes, but you are limited in the ammount of current you can source from a USB port. 200 mA I believe.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
Your gonna send power and data through a capacitor?
With a USB-powered design, a separate power supply could well be made optional. Something like this or this would work just fine, without having to provide a separate power input connector.
-Phil
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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!
Ken - All the more reason to write a USB bootloader for the next chip! You could do like Microchip do with the PICKit2 and make it a HID device for lack-of-drivers-ness - though I admit it's somewhat disconcerting to see my PIC programmer refereed to as a "Human Interface Device!"
No, this is slightly different; the PICAxe uses a RS232-to-headphone converter
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
PS, Ken, any idea what kind of EEPROM will the Prop II use? Or don't we know?