Had to share this - the designer sent it over tonight as a logo comp. I don't know about the cigar, but everything else about it is pretty damn cool. Gangster-y in a way that's not too campy.
Yeah. I'm concerned about sales. I'm betting that there is a market of people who currently don't buy stuff at sparkfun, but would like to get involved. If I'm wrong, I'll have some resistors for sale - CHEAP!
Project of the month club sounds great! All of the projects you'd buy would be complete with the parts you need & instructions on how to do it. I had an idea for a cereal of the month club, but that was universally panned.
Projects don't HAVE to be ucontroller based. But I suspect that most of the projects would be - a limited inventory would make it harder to do creative things without a ucontroller.
Few questions;
What about licensing? Would you not share a project if you had to share it under GPL?
Any other places that sell cool projects (other than ladyada & parallax's robots?)
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I'm· interested or at least currious about your proposal. However, you list this offer under the Propeller forum not under the Sandbox forum which gives the illusion that your idea is only available for Propellor based projects and not necessarily BS2 or SX micro-controller based. I would not have found this thread if it wasn't open when I had come in at his moment. I have done many projects for both BS2 and SX but find the propellor a bit to much to deal with using SPIN and Assembler·as my comfort zone remains with a BASIC style language like SX/B or PBASIC.
Is your proposal only limited to Propellor based projects? If you do a search in the completed projects, SX and Basic Stamp forums you will see a fair amount of neat projects and ideas I have completed (mainly LED matrix based and some others off the beat) as that is where my experience and interest lies knowing there is a lack of these types of projects found on the internet that are not PIC or AVR based.
@Nick
No criticism; just curiousity: What part of your target demographic identifies with "gangsta" ?
It would be easy to copy your business into any "motif" once the first variant is done.
@T&E Engineer
There is·no reason to restrict projects to Propeller or even Parallax products beyond comfort
zone or just being a dedicated customer. I have at least two projects that will use SX28/48.
@All
I'm a little miffed by the notion that anyone here thinks Nick is up to no good. This has not
been panned as a get rich quick scheme, a work at home scam, or an "investment".·Vetting
is a reasonable thing to do, and the forum is fair for that; we all have experiences that are
worth consideration.
This is a potential sales channel. If it's the first and only sales channel, fine. If it's one of
many to come, even better. It takes a little stretch to get out of the box. If you're happy
with your box, there's nothing wrong with that. Chris mentioned writing DIY magazine articles;
that's free advertising. Without a sales channel, there is little benefit of·publicity beyond ego
and the·value that comes with successfully publishing an article.
It is clear·exclusivity is not a concern. Also, few hobby projects·are big and unique enough
to warrant intellectual property or patent protection. Productizing projects is not a bad thing,
it just takes a little more work than normal.
If Nick pursues this to it's conclusion or "launch", there will be big risks for him to acquire and
maintain inventory. The profit motivation is big enough though if marketing draws customers.
Obviously there has been some market research otherwise some of the statistics would have
not come out. Market research doesn't mean a "sucker hunt". Business by nature requires
finding people willing to pay a price for goods or services that fill their needs.
Having a stream of income by any means is difficult; this an opportunity to sell knowledge
rather than sweat. If nothing else, putting a project into shape will enhance your marketable skills.
Ha! Yeah, it has. Good call. It's also not just a Propeller Projects. Basic Stamp - SURE! SX too. I'll carry whatever it is that will support the most projects.
I was kind of hoping for more 'Al pacino' Gangster - less Gangsta'. But yeah, most of the work will not be the logo or website (website's actually pretty easy). The only way to offend me is to NOT tell me I did something wrong.
I actually thought is was funny that I'm running a scam to collect emails. Reminds me of a Howard Aiken quote - “Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.” Maybe not that bad [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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To all the negatives out there: Admit it, what can you lose? even the free email can parse out the SPAM, you don't have to give your credit card number to submit a project, and it doesn't cost you anything. Even if he is running a scam (which I don't think is true), the most that you lose is a few bytes in your inbox. Plus, you end up with a well documented project that you can give to your friends and coworkers, even if the site never makes it. So give it a try...
I'm in the muck, doing the website & pulling together inventories from other completed projects. Coming up for air & flipped thru Ladyada's forum. I wouldn't say she's a competitor, but it's helpful to start with her experiences.
The question of whether the dog will eat the dog food - she did an audio kit project. Not sure what the price is (as you can't order or preorder, but must put yourself on a list), but she sold 750 kits. She says that's "not bad".
scratch that - I just saw that the kit was $350. Question for the parallax folks (which you are very free to decline to answer) - what's your volume on the small robot kits (say the penguin)? Dozens, Hundreds? A thousand?
Anyway - a screenshot of the site is attached.
Another question. As a designer, would you rather be featured by your full name, or a login name?
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Nick McClick said...
Another question. As a designer, would you rather be featured by your full name, or a login name?
Looks great so far [noparse]:)[/noparse]·I would prefer an alias honestly and some kind of a forum for project support. That way my·email and identity etc... would remain anonymous unless I cared to publish it. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to find out more on any contributor with a certain amount of determination though.
Yeah. I'm thinking of a forum for project support. I can see how designers would prefer a bit of anonymity. You might sell a little more, with a real name, though.
Just to belabor the point - 750 kits @ $350ea - is $260,000 in sales. The kit is a monster (with a huge PCB & a ton of components), but it's still a good margin. I think audio projects will demand a premium. I don't think robot projects will do as well. The best projects will likely be the ones that people can 'show-off'. I thought the openstomp guitar pedal would be a niche product, but I suspect I'll be proven very wrong [noparse]:)[/noparse].
There should also be a market for 'tweener' projects. SRLM pointed out a product category that either has a '(expletive)ty consumer' tier or a 'ultra high-end' tier, and nowhere in-between. I bet there are a number of other product categories waiting for a third choice.
Anywhoo - back to work.
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Specifically, I mentioned that there was a large difference in that there are cheap products and expensive products, no moderate products. Take laser range finders, for example. Stanley Tools sells a laser range finder for cheap, but a thread dedicated to figuring it out died away (From lack of success, presumably). Another thread about a long range laser system seems to be heading the same way, but one can hope. Anyway, the next step is a commercial setup that sells for $500 ( http://www.opti-logic.com/industrial_rangefinders.htm ), then $1300 ( http://www.robotshop.ca/ProductList.aspx?cc=highendscanners ). What I hope that gadget gangster can do is to give me something for about $100. This trend of low and high end products with no middle ground can also be seen in tracked vehicles, helicopters/planes, and radio communication.
Sorry - the expletive was mine - just paraphrasing. Radio is a great example - I've been a ham for a while, & whenever I look at radios, it's either the cheapo handheld (which isn't really that cheap), or the super expensive home receiver. I've noted this many times, but I can't remember most of the instances.
re: Parallax kits; Parallax probably doesn't want to be in the kit business. It's a significant inventory commitment & not as profitable as selling trays of IC's. It's also a lot easier to have solid repeat business with high volume shipments, which is probably where they'd rather move their business.
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I just sent off a Project Desc and BOM(Nick, you actually got it twice, I submitted the first w/o looking at the massive amount of spelling mistakes I had made[noparse][[/noparse]ie, ignore the first]) to the site and it seemed pretty painless though I would love a "You just submitted a project" email to confirm the project went through(Maybe a future update to the site? Idk what you are writing the site in but I could whip up a PHP solution in 10 seconds so it seems like a fairly simple "upgrade") I like the idea of the site but I have one small problem with the setup. I don't see how in the world you can hope to use a "generic" PCB. I just looked up SpinStudio and it seems interesting but I still don't see how you can expect people to do their projects all of the same board(correct me if I'm confused). I have to admit, stocking 100's(1000's?) of Custom PCB boards might(would) be a problem but there has to be some way. My suggestion(which I'm sure you have already though of) is to sell one of those mega solderless breadboards. All the kits on the site would have to conform to that breadboard(which wouldn't be very hard). The end resulting project might not "look pretty" but it would work. If the customer/DIYer built the project and then liked it they could order the CUSTOM pcb boards from you then and you could simple order them from batchpcb. The turn around time isn't very good but in the mean time the customer already has a working prototype and is eagerly building the next kit on the breadboard while he/she waits for the pcb's for the previously finished project. This way you don't have to stock PCB's but the user can still get them, the designers arn't forced to conform to some strange PCB, and the user can, if they choose, "upgrade" their fit to a more "professional" version when ever they want to..
Just by 3.5467 cents
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Current Projects:
Robot Control Via Skype API - Dev Stage(50% Complete) - Total(25%)
Robot Localization Via Xbee's - Research Stage
IR Tracking with Propeller - Research Stage
This is flimsiest part of my plan. I can't support custom PCB's. Custom PCB's have a fixed cost, where I'd have to guess volume of certain projects, and would be outa luck if I guessed wrong. I would like to have hundreds of projects on the site, so PCB inventory would be a nightmare. One-off custom PCB's would push up the cost for the hobbyist or take forever to ship. An excited hobbyist may wait a day or two for shipping, but not several weeks.
I'm not an engineer, so I don't know the answer to this - SpinStudio was my first guess as a possible solution (and it's already done, making it easy to use). Another answer is breadboards - but it's a really unprofessional presentation that's also non-permanent and rather large. I've also used prototyping boards from Fry's, with the circuit writer pen, but I've had reliability problems.
What part of your project would be impossible with SpinStudio (or painful for the hobbyist?)
Another, completely different idea, is wirewrap. Honestly, I've never done a wirewrap, so I don't know how feasible this is. I like wirewrap as I can include the equipment, free, in each shipment.
So, here are my questions;
Is a modular system like SpinStudio too restrictive for your design?
Is there ANY other way to make custom PCB's on-demand, at low cost, quickly enough to fulfill 100 orders a day?
Do I just not know how to use the circuit writer pen, or is it unreliable?
Is wirewrap just crazy talk?
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Seems the PCB supply should be the designer's problem on consignment.
3.5467 ?? What's the inflation index ?
Added: Wire-wrap is an option, but you also have to specify the sockets or special header pins that would need to be soldered unless you can find a generic wire-wrap board. Looking at big $$$ it seems. We used to build flight simulators in Sunnyvale with such technology in the 80's ... just the electronics cost $100M easy then.
It seems·a·goal of DIY should be "Low cost with little pain."
Wire wrap is a no go beyond small projects. Sockets are expensive and its time consuming as hell unless you do it professionally.
Bread boarding is for prototyping not making permament projects.
PCB's are the way to go for projects. 2 sided boards are dirt cheap. Its a deal killer though if your business model based on JIT and zero inventory like Nicks.
And the $350 for Nick's kit. Its too much unless it adds a lot of real value and not hype. I can get a Xilinx FPGA kit and a Micron 32 development kit for less and have money left over for other goodies.
2¢ in 1983 is worth about 3.5¢ in 2008's money... Apparently, the idiom started in the 17th century, so adjusting for inflation, it should be "my 35¢". That's based on CPI, though - Where's the parallax economist forum? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I'd still have to stock PCB's. Designers would assume the risk, but they'll be very shy to assume any risk. Plus, I know my sales will be pretty weak for the first few months. How happy will your average designer be spending a few hundred on PCB's and not getting a return for a while? Or maybe getting stuck with unsold PCB's? Or running out of PCB's, only to order 1,000 more that don't get sold and wipe out any money they might have made with the project?
I know that using a modular system like SpinStudio would decrease the # of projects. But can't many projects be adapted for a modular system like SpinStudio? I'm open to adding new modules to the system (Stocking 15-20 boards is fine).
You can also change the way the board is put together - change the value of the resistors on the IO board (or just short them), change the connector on the joystick board, etc. & what can't be done with the protoboard? With the current SpinStudio, you could drop in 4 protoboards. The protoboard looks a lot like a solder-able breadboard (without capacitance / inductance issues). Current SpinStudio Modules are; joystick, NIC, SD card, XBee, Mouse / Keyboard, Audio / video, VGA, General IO, and LCD. BTW, spinStudio is at ucontroller.com.
I'm not being rhetorical - would a SpinStudio style modular system be too limiting? What additional modules would help? An X10 module? A keypad module? Midi connector module?
@ walt
I kinda thought wirewrap was a pipedream. I'll technically hold inventory, but it needs to be JIT-esque so designers can put up a project and have it for sale the same day.
You might have mis-understood the $350 Kit - Ladyada sold 750 of them at that price (wasn't my kit). I agree, the kit isn't worth it - but 750 folks don't share our opinion! And there are many more folks who are sitting on the waiting list.
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A designer would be more willing to·assume risk·(and should know what works anyway)
if some PCB margin could be allowed in addition to your current proposal.
There's a ton of board houses out there.·Below is a guideline from one shop.
You could have a disclaimer on backorders for new kits.
Thought I'd offer my 2 cents at this point. I'd been watching this thread with interest since it's inception.
I've had a design for a larger ProtoCard that I haven't implemented yet. It is similar to the current ProtoCard, but it has a larger prototyping area, and it plugs into 2 sockets on the mainboard, giving you access to 16 of the Propeller's IO pins(plus I2c lines and power connections). Perhaps this will give you the area needed to complete larger projects.
The main advantage to doing a project this way is. The ProtoCard can be unplugged and swapped with other plug in modules, but yet in the future if you want to go back to the project, plug it right back in. That's the main SpinStudio feature, a constantly reconfigurable development board.
If there's need for and demand for a more application specific board, contact me and I'd be happy to start carrying a quantity of them for a reasonable price.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
I've been looking more "thoroughly" at the spin studio boards and I'm starting to warm up to them. I think most projects could be adapted to the spin boards but some are just going to be impossible. Also, I don't think the spin boards are ever going to give you 'professionalism" I would expect with some projects. SpinStudio seems more suited for "project development" and at this moment I don't think this proposed site/idea is really guaged toward project development. I really don't see the problem with my proposed idea: All projects would be designed with a solderless breadboard in mind. The projects would try to contain everything, CPU(propeller), memory(EEPROM), Power, and what ever else all on one breadboard. The kit would be sold to the customer with the understanding that the kit's finished product is "temporary." The user receives the kit and all it's components. either reads the manual or watches a "how to" video(if available) and builds the kit on their breadboard. If they are happy with the kit they go back online and purchase 1(or however many they want) PCB's off of BatchPCB for around $15($10 setup, ~$5ea) and in about 20 days they finsih the kit. Sure, 20 days is hella long.. but in the mean time they are free to order other "temporary" kits off of the site. The idea is that the user can CHOOSE which kits they really want to finish. Other, more novelty kits, can just be left on the breadboard.
The SparkNotes of the Above:
Nick's site doesn't have to stock PCB's because they are ordered only after the customer builds the kit and then chooses to make the kit more "professional.' PCB's are ordered individually and in small numbers using BatchPCB's fairly cheap service. That way nobody is stuck with 100's of unsold boards.
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Current Projects:
Robot Control Via Skype API - Dev Stage(50% Complete) - Total(25%)
Robot Localization Via Xbee's - Research Stage
IR Tracking with Propeller - Research Stage
Have you considered a rectangular "app-mod" or "Prop-mod?" approach with the
Propeller Protoboard (or other custom design that could be easily mounted in an off
the shelf enclosure) ?·· Think about a Propeller sandwich ... hmm lunch time.
Basically one can design adapters with a square mounting similar to the propeller outline
for stacking and have 0.1 headers and sockets for mating (allow placement for cooling).
Standoff's can be added on corners. That big honkin' electrolytic might pose a problem.
A fully integrated solution with good mechanical integrity can be provided and common
spin studio components like TV DAC could be added with little effort. Of course something
similar can be done with your base-board, but the connectors would interfere with addons
like RS232 port or other peripheral devices that could otherwise be mounted there for
single-sided adapter designs. Any adapter could be designed with components on one
or both sides.
This way one could buy the Protoboard or equivalent and "Prop-mod" board for projects.
The designer could then focus on the application rather than Propeller layout. Of course
pads could be added for a second Propeller or whatever in the square center if necessary.
Looks like DiablodeMorte's just beat me to the punch on packaging considerations.
Personally, I prefer the solderless breadboard like the one that comes with the propeller kit. For my projects, I want to be able to quickly make changes, and, more importantly, be able to reuse parts later in a new design. I don't really need a permanent setup for anything, even robots, but if I do, then I can just use a board like you get at radio shack. Perhaps, Nick, you can offer the design of the board from a custom producer and give the user a link to upgrade, if they choose.
The least common denominator it seems is the schematic, assembly hints, and component kit. Other options like PCB, Breadboard, Protoboard, Spin-Studio, Enclosure, or whatever could be sold separately. Some of the projects I've planned need good packaging, but others will not.
I tend to agree - the most professional presentation is a custom PCB. How about this;
All Projects listed have to be producible with the materials on the site (1 inventory item would be a protoboard-eque piece, basically a solder down breadboard)
Designers can also offer a custom PCB with the project. They could drop-ship the PCB to me. I don't mind warehousing the inventory.
The hobbyist could then shop for a project, your project would have a custom PCB option, and they could decide to pay extra for the custom PCB version
This way;
Hobbyists don't have to wait for custom PCB's.
Designers are free to make their project super-nice, but aren't required to. But anything that can be breadboarded can be put on the protoboard. (and somethings that can't be breadboarded can go on a protoboard).
The presentation of the kit still stays fairly nice.
I would request you drop ship me more than a single board, however. 5 or 10 would be fine - that way, I'll let you know if stock is low so you can order more (If you want).
@jazzed - The current spin boards splay out, fine for prototyping & tinkering, but a little flimsy & hard to put in an enclosure. My first thought was to use flexible connectors (ala floppy cables). I like the idea of using an enclosure backplane - that's rigid!
A daisy chain style sandwich would be awesome! That would be very rigid, but still pretty easy to assemble.
I'm pretty sure I'll publish the design schematics / BOM / code on the site, so you can breadboard it for free. But folks who order a project are going to want something more permanent and nicer than a breadboard.
I never did get feedback on that. As a designer, would you like to have the choice to share your project under a closed-source license? At least, would an open-source only policy keep you from publishing your project?
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I like the compromise of Parallax with their BOE. It has the most common components permanently attached, and with the breadboard there you can easily change what you need to. Perhaps you could stock the BOE (for BS2 based projects).
I just noticed the second form on the site: the "Want to See a Project?" form. How do you intend to "find someone who's interested in putting it together?" Are you going to mass email(Me no likely) or issue an annoincement on the website? I like the announcement idea [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Current Projects:
Robot Control Via Skype API - Dev Stage(50% Complete) - Total(25%)
Robot Localization Via Xbee's - Research Stage
IR Tracking with Propeller - Research Stage
I'll just put up a list of suggested projects on the site. This comes from my experience looking for a good learning project on the Propeller & not being able to think of anything that looked fun.
NO SPAM [noparse]:)[/noparse] The only email I plan on sending to people who've entered a project (both of them) is a 'Site's open' email.
What about disbursements? Originally I was thinking paypal, but they charge 5%, which seems ridiculous. What about an old fashioned check?
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Okay - so I got my SpinStudio kit in the mail today - put it together tonight. It's a really nice package. I have to take back my comment on a flimsy connector - the modules lock on quite strongly.
Build time was 15 minutes - the screenprint is ridiculously clear. The servo / General IO board took another 5 minutes.
The default setup has the boards running out, but you can run two boards 'in'. (see attached photo). The board isn't wired that way, though. The protoboard has 17 rows & 5V & 3.3V rails. The biggie electrolytic isn't that big, either.
You probably couldn't fit this in the tip of a rocket, but you could add headers to the protoboard & run a cable up.
Took a few pictures - attached. Nice kit, Brian!
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Nick said...
Okay - so I got my SpinStudio kit in the mail today - put it together tonight. It's a really nice package. I have to take back my comment on a flimsy connector - the modules lock on quite strongly.
Comments
Yeah. I'm concerned about sales. I'm betting that there is a market of people who currently don't buy stuff at sparkfun, but would like to get involved. If I'm wrong, I'll have some resistors for sale - CHEAP!
Project of the month club sounds great! All of the projects you'd buy would be complete with the parts you need & instructions on how to do it. I had an idea for a cereal of the month club, but that was universally panned.
Projects don't HAVE to be ucontroller based. But I suspect that most of the projects would be - a limited inventory would make it harder to do creative things without a ucontroller.
Few questions;
What about licensing? Would you not share a project if you had to share it under GPL?
Any other places that sell cool projects (other than ladyada & parallax's robots?)
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
Is your proposal only limited to Propellor based projects? If you do a search in the completed projects, SX and Basic Stamp forums you will see a fair amount of neat projects and ideas I have completed (mainly LED matrix based and some others off the beat) as that is where my experience and interest lies knowing there is a lack of these types of projects found on the internet that are not PIC or AVR based.
Let me know...
Thanks.
No criticism; just curiousity: What part of your target demographic identifies with "gangsta" ?
It would be easy to copy your business into any "motif" once the first variant is done.
@T&E Engineer
There is·no reason to restrict projects to Propeller or even Parallax products beyond comfort
zone or just being a dedicated customer. I have at least two projects that will use SX28/48.
@All
I'm a little miffed by the notion that anyone here thinks Nick is up to no good. This has not
been panned as a get rich quick scheme, a work at home scam, or an "investment".·Vetting
is a reasonable thing to do, and the forum is fair for that; we all have experiences that are
worth consideration.
This is a potential sales channel. If it's the first and only sales channel, fine. If it's one of
many to come, even better. It takes a little stretch to get out of the box. If you're happy
with your box, there's nothing wrong with that. Chris mentioned writing DIY magazine articles;
that's free advertising. Without a sales channel, there is little benefit of·publicity beyond ego
and the·value that comes with successfully publishing an article.
It is clear·exclusivity is not a concern. Also, few hobby projects·are big and unique enough
to warrant intellectual property or patent protection. Productizing projects is not a bad thing,
it just takes a little more work than normal.
If Nick pursues this to it's conclusion or "launch", there will be big risks for him to acquire and
maintain inventory. The profit motivation is big enough though if marketing draws customers.
Obviously there has been some market research otherwise some of the statistics would have
not come out. Market research doesn't mean a "sucker hunt". Business by nature requires
finding people willing to pay a price for goods or services that fill their needs.
Having a stream of income by any means is difficult; this an opportunity to sell knowledge
rather than sweat. If nothing else, putting a project into shape will enhance your marketable skills.
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Post Edited (jazzed) : 8/1/2008 2:46:42 PM GMT
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
I was kind of hoping for more 'Al pacino' Gangster - less Gangsta'. But yeah, most of the work will not be the logo or website (website's actually pretty easy). The only way to offend me is to NOT tell me I did something wrong.
I actually thought is was funny that I'm running a scam to collect emails. Reminds me of a Howard Aiken quote - “Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.” Maybe not that bad [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
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The question of whether the dog will eat the dog food - she did an audio kit project. Not sure what the price is (as you can't order or preorder, but must put yourself on a list), but she sold 750 kits. She says that's "not bad".
scratch that - I just saw that the kit was $350. Question for the parallax folks (which you are very free to decline to answer) - what's your volume on the small robot kits (say the penguin)? Dozens, Hundreds? A thousand?
Anyway - a screenshot of the site is attached.
Another question. As a designer, would you rather be featured by your full name, or a login name?
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
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Just to belabor the point - 750 kits @ $350ea - is $260,000 in sales. The kit is a monster (with a huge PCB & a ton of components), but it's still a good margin. I think audio projects will demand a premium. I don't think robot projects will do as well. The best projects will likely be the ones that people can 'show-off'. I thought the openstomp guitar pedal would be a niche product, but I suspect I'll be proven very wrong [noparse]:)[/noparse].
There should also be a market for 'tweener' projects. SRLM pointed out a product category that either has a '(expletive)ty consumer' tier or a 'ultra high-end' tier, and nowhere in-between. I bet there are a number of other product categories waiting for a third choice.
Anywhoo - back to work.
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
·
No expletives, either...
re: Parallax kits; Parallax probably doesn't want to be in the kit business. It's a significant inventory commitment & not as profitable as selling trays of IC's. It's also a lot easier to have solid repeat business with high volume shipments, which is probably where they'd rather move their business.
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
Just by 3.5467 cents
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Current Projects:
Robot Control Via Skype API - Dev Stage(50% Complete) - Total(25%)
Robot Localization Via Xbee's - Research Stage
IR Tracking with Propeller - Research Stage
I'm not an engineer, so I don't know the answer to this - SpinStudio was my first guess as a possible solution (and it's already done, making it easy to use). Another answer is breadboards - but it's a really unprofessional presentation that's also non-permanent and rather large. I've also used prototyping boards from Fry's, with the circuit writer pen, but I've had reliability problems.
What part of your project would be impossible with SpinStudio (or painful for the hobbyist?)
Another, completely different idea, is wirewrap. Honestly, I've never done a wirewrap, so I don't know how feasible this is. I like wirewrap as I can include the equipment, free, in each shipment.
So, here are my questions;
Is a modular system like SpinStudio too restrictive for your design?
Is there ANY other way to make custom PCB's on-demand, at low cost, quickly enough to fulfill 100 orders a day?
Do I just not know how to use the circuit writer pen, or is it unreliable?
Is wirewrap just crazy talk?
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
3.5467 ?? What's the inflation index ?
Added: Wire-wrap is an option, but you also have to specify the sockets or special header pins that would need to be soldered unless you can find a generic wire-wrap board. Looking at big $$$ it seems. We used to build flight simulators in Sunnyvale with such technology in the 80's ... just the electronics cost $100M easy then.
It seems·a·goal of DIY should be "Low cost with little pain."
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Post Edited (jazzed) : 8/4/2008 6:05:25 PM GMT
Bread boarding is for prototyping not making permament projects.
PCB's are the way to go for projects. 2 sided boards are dirt cheap. Its a deal killer though if your business model based on JIT and zero inventory like Nicks.
And the $350 for Nick's kit. Its too much unless it adds a lot of real value and not hype. I can get a Xilinx FPGA kit and a Micron 32 development kit for less and have money left over for other goodies.
I'd still have to stock PCB's. Designers would assume the risk, but they'll be very shy to assume any risk. Plus, I know my sales will be pretty weak for the first few months. How happy will your average designer be spending a few hundred on PCB's and not getting a return for a while? Or maybe getting stuck with unsold PCB's? Or running out of PCB's, only to order 1,000 more that don't get sold and wipe out any money they might have made with the project?
I know that using a modular system like SpinStudio would decrease the # of projects. But can't many projects be adapted for a modular system like SpinStudio? I'm open to adding new modules to the system (Stocking 15-20 boards is fine).
You can also change the way the board is put together - change the value of the resistors on the IO board (or just short them), change the connector on the joystick board, etc. & what can't be done with the protoboard? With the current SpinStudio, you could drop in 4 protoboards. The protoboard looks a lot like a solder-able breadboard (without capacitance / inductance issues). Current SpinStudio Modules are; joystick, NIC, SD card, XBee, Mouse / Keyboard, Audio / video, VGA, General IO, and LCD. BTW, spinStudio is at ucontroller.com.
I'm not being rhetorical - would a SpinStudio style modular system be too limiting? What additional modules would help? An X10 module? A keypad module? Midi connector module?
@ walt
I kinda thought wirewrap was a pipedream. I'll technically hold inventory, but it needs to be JIT-esque so designers can put up a project and have it for sale the same day.
You might have mis-understood the $350 Kit - Ladyada sold 750 of them at that price (wasn't my kit). I agree, the kit isn't worth it - but 750 folks don't share our opinion! And there are many more folks who are sitting on the waiting list.
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
if some PCB margin could be allowed in addition to your current proposal.
There's a ton of board houses out there.·Below is a guideline from one shop.
You could have a disclaimer on backorders for new kits.
I'm sure there are other deals to be had. This table does not consider many aspects of PCB cost.
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I've had a design for a larger ProtoCard that I haven't implemented yet. It is similar to the current ProtoCard, but it has a larger prototyping area, and it plugs into 2 sockets on the mainboard, giving you access to 16 of the Propeller's IO pins(plus I2c lines and power connections). Perhaps this will give you the area needed to complete larger projects.
The main advantage to doing a project this way is. The ProtoCard can be unplugged and swapped with other plug in modules, but yet in the future if you want to go back to the project, plug it right back in. That's the main SpinStudio feature, a constantly reconfigurable development board.
If there's need for and demand for a more application specific board, contact me and I'd be happy to start carrying a quantity of them for a reasonable price.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
The SparkNotes of the Above:
Nick's site doesn't have to stock PCB's because they are ordered only after the customer builds the kit and then chooses to make the kit more "professional.' PCB's are ordered individually and in small numbers using BatchPCB's fairly cheap service. That way nobody is stuck with 100's of unsold boards.
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Current Projects:
Robot Control Via Skype API - Dev Stage(50% Complete) - Total(25%)
Robot Localization Via Xbee's - Research Stage
IR Tracking with Propeller - Research Stage
Have you considered a rectangular "app-mod" or "Prop-mod?" approach with the
Propeller Protoboard (or other custom design that could be easily mounted in an off
the shelf enclosure) ?·· Think about a Propeller sandwich ... hmm lunch time.
Basically one can design adapters with a square mounting similar to the propeller outline
for stacking and have 0.1 headers and sockets for mating (allow placement for cooling).
Standoff's can be added on corners. That big honkin' electrolytic might pose a problem.
A fully integrated solution with good mechanical integrity can be provided and common
spin studio components like TV DAC could be added with little effort. Of course something
similar can be done with your base-board, but the connectors would interfere with addons
like RS232 port or other peripheral devices that could otherwise be mounted there for
single-sided adapter designs. Any adapter could be designed with components on one
or both sides.
This way one could buy the Protoboard or equivalent and "Prop-mod" board for projects.
The designer could then focus on the application rather than Propeller layout. Of course
pads could be added for a second Propeller or whatever in the square center if necessary.
Looks like DiablodeMorte's just beat me to the punch on packaging considerations.
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This way;
Hobbyists don't have to wait for custom PCB's.
Designers are free to make their project super-nice, but aren't required to. But anything that can be breadboarded can be put on the protoboard. (and somethings that can't be breadboarded can go on a protoboard).
The presentation of the kit still stays fairly nice.
I would request you drop ship me more than a single board, however. 5 or 10 would be fine - that way, I'll let you know if stock is low so you can order more (If you want).
@jazzed - The current spin boards splay out, fine for prototyping & tinkering, but a little flimsy & hard to put in an enclosure. My first thought was to use flexible connectors (ala floppy cables). I like the idea of using an enclosure backplane - that's rigid!
A daisy chain style sandwich would be awesome! That would be very rigid, but still pretty easy to assemble.
I'm pretty sure I'll publish the design schematics / BOM / code on the site, so you can breadboard it for free. But folks who order a project are going to want something more permanent and nicer than a breadboard.
I never did get feedback on that. As a designer, would you like to have the choice to share your project under a closed-source license? At least, would an open-source only policy keep you from publishing your project?
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
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Current Projects:
Robot Control Via Skype API - Dev Stage(50% Complete) - Total(25%)
Robot Localization Via Xbee's - Research Stage
IR Tracking with Propeller - Research Stage
NO SPAM [noparse]:)[/noparse] The only email I plan on sending to people who've entered a project (both of them) is a 'Site's open' email.
What about disbursements? Originally I was thinking paypal, but they charge 5%, which seems ridiculous. What about an old fashioned check?
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
Build time was 15 minutes - the screenprint is ridiculously clear. The servo / General IO board took another 5 minutes.
The default setup has the boards running out, but you can run two boards 'in'. (see attached photo). The board isn't wired that way, though. The protoboard has 17 rows & 5V & 3.3V rails. The biggie electrolytic isn't that big, either.
You probably couldn't fit this in the tip of a rocket, but you could add headers to the protoboard & run a cable up.
Took a few pictures - attached. Nice kit, Brian!
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Concentrate on understanding the problem, not applying the tool
another hint..... look at this thread http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=732162 there I show how to put spacers in the mounting holes, it's even sturdier when built like this.
I have done exactly that... used a 20 pin IDC connector on each end of a ribbon cable and put a male header on the Module you want to make "remote".
Thank you!
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board