Making PCB's

Philldapill

I need to make a few prototype PCB's that will eventually be sent off to Futurlec.com to be fabricated in larger quantities. I don't really feel like paying their setup fees, then on top of it, have to wait 2-3 weeks to get them. For now, I just want to be able to make a couple to make sure my prototype works the way it should. This is going to be a stepper motor controller using the Prop as the data/driver brain. Any suggestions on where to get materials, and general know how on making PCB's?

dfletch

Hey lucky you, this just came up in IRC and I still have the tab open

www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm#1

Toner transfer method. Very cool DIY stuff.

Cheers,

--fletch

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Join us in the Un-Official Propeller IRC channel: irc.freenode.net #propeller
Newbies, oldies, programmers, math professors, and everyone in-between welcome!
Propeller IRC howto
spinc - open source Spin compiler

Timothy D. Swieter

Why not use a place like PCBCart to order PCBs and prototypes? If you have a high confidence in your design then making PCBs is the best route to go. For me, I like saving time abd mnoney by making sure I check, double check and have someone else check the design before I order PCBs, even for prototyping. I don't like to mess with chemicals and making my own boards. Errors in the design and funciton can be introduced if you don't watch what you are doing.

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Timothy D. Swieter

www.brilldea.com·- check out the uOLED-IOC, an I/O expansion for the uOLED-96-PROP
www.tdswieter.com

---

One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode

DavidM

Hi,

Don't use FUTURLEC, !!!! They can hardly deliver simple components ( and sometimes the wrong ones) on a timely manner,

So I doubt they could do PCB's with any great urgency! :-(

INSTEAD..

I am about to place an order with OURPCB.COM

There pricing is excellent ( better than FUTURLEC ! ) and they respond within 24 hours ,

Just submit a quote online, send your gerber in a zipped folder and see what comes back!

check out the prices here!!!

http://www.ourpcb.com/price.php

regards

Dave M

Rayman

I've used: PCB123.com

It comes with free layout software and they deliver quickly and at reasonable cost...

mynet43

I've used several proto board houses recently.

The most recent one is APCircuits. They do good work very quickly and very inexpensive. The only downside is that they only use FedEx shipping which costs about $25 (from Canada).

Be sure to specify whether you want hole sizes specified to drill values or finished sizes.

I recently got three different boards done by them at the same time with a total cost less than $100 total including shipping.

I use DipTrace software, which has a very good free version and includes everything you need, including Gerber file output.

Jim

Philldapill

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I've never had a problem with futurlec and have ordered from them about 10 times. PCB123 seems outrageously expensive, even in quantities of 100. However, futurlec doesn't give ANY sort of price break so...
I looked at OURPCB.com and wow. 3 10 square inch boards for $54? yikes. I think the 10 - 40 inch boards seems very reasonable, and hey, better than futurlec's pricing. It looks like the more board you order, the cheaper it is, exponentially. I REALLY like that.

David M, I have to say, at first I thought you were someone FROM ourPCB. After looking at their site's pricing and other things, I totally understand where you're coming from.

bambino

Has anyone tried PCB express! What was your experience with them?

DavidM

HI Philldapill,

I just re-read my post , and yes I sound a bit like a sales rep !

I should be careful though, I am about to place an order with them, I hope it goes to plan, But so far with their quotes, they have been very helpful, they even gave me a choice of a cheaper carrier service as I was concerned about the delivery costs.

They also suggested a better price in producing multiple ( different designs) PCB's in the one order.

It would be nice to know of anyone else's experience with OURPCB.


Thanks
Dave M

Philldapill

Hey, David, let me know how the shipping costs are. That is a bit of a concern with me. I see it's coming from China, and sometimes they use UPS which is about $100 or more, OR, they'll use some carrier like futurlec does and it's dirt cheap. Either way, let me konw how much, who it is, and how much you ordered so I can doa little budgeting of my own. Thanks!

Philldapill

BTW, what software do you guys use? I'm trying EAGLE, but the freeware version is kind of limiting. I need a 4" x 5" board, minimum.

DavidM

Hi Philldapill

I use a MAC so I use EAGLE for SCHEMATIC, but I then use a program called "OSMOND PCB" for the MAC. its FREE for up to 700 holes.

I just cannot get use to the way EAGLE works, the parts editing and PCB layout is so NON - STANDARD in the way GUI work on any platform!
I have gotten use to the schematic capture in eagle, but I just can't get to like the PCB layout parts.

as for OSMOND PCB, its library suck big time, but its very easy to use
I know this is a two step process , but there is not much choice to PCB design software for the mac.



Regards

Dave M

mirror

I've tried lots of budget/free schematic and PCB editors over the last couple of years. The best for ease of use versus features that I found is Rimu Schematic and PCB.

www.hutson.co.nz/

It's not free, but it's worth the small price.

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Philldapill

David, What about your shipping charges and what not?

DavidM

Hi Philldapill,

I was originally quoted for 20 off pcbs ( 200mm X 256mm ) USD$86.00 via fedex,

they then offered USD$68.00 via "EMS" carriers,


I think that its the WEIGHT of the PCB's that will effect the delivery costs the most.

For other quotes I was charged USD$51.00 via fedex ( for 10off x 8" X 10" PCBS)

But as a total cost is still works out cheaper that anywhere else!

But as I said I have not tried them yet, I am just getting some quotes done and I am still finalizing some of my PCB designs I require at the moment.

Another thing, is they accept credit cards so this makes it easier for payment, I have used wire transfers with china and its a pain in the rear! it also adds to the cost as well.

Regards
Dave M

VIRAND

@bambino
PCBexpress is OK if you want three 2x3 inch boards for $51.

For anyone who'd like to try the toner method ... I've had some success with transparencies,
but after ironing, the boards often need to be touched up with a sharpie.
BUT
Today I tried the Staples photo basic gloss #471865 that the link recommended and every which way it jams in a
HP LaserJet 5p. FYI just so perhaps someone else doesn't waste money on it.
SO, with luck and an extra laser printer, by trial and error you might find something that works well for you.

bambino

Thanks VIRAND, Either way I go I'll have to learn new software. I took autocad r14 in college, but It's unlikely that anyone is going to die soon and leave a copy of it to me in there will. I've looked at eagle and kiCad, but It wasn't very friendly. PCB 123 has one that I can grasp, but can only use it with there manufactuer.

I agree with you on the etching, I love it. And my last business venture brought my client to love it too, but not for production. It truly kept R&D down to a minimum.

Philldapill

Well, I've been using EAGLE for about 48 hours now, and it definately has a steep learning curve. I'm getting the hang of it now and I think this is going to work out well. So far, I recommend it. Fairly inexpensive too.

Harley

My two cents.

Advanced Circuits, http://www.4pcb.com, has a 'free-for-the-download' schematic capture and pcb layout package.

I have a copy but have not yet had a chance to do much more than just browse through it. I don't know if one has to use their pcb fab services, although from what I've seen, it does allow one to order on-line right from the program.

I've used them before for boards. Have only used their 'special $33/board' for prototypes. Yes, they are heavy and shipping usually amounts to around $10. Good quality, for the ones I've used; only two-sided, solder masked and silk screened so far. Located in CO, USA.

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Harley Shanko

Philldapill

Wow, OURPCB even has a guy on MSN Messenger that I just chat with. He said shipping for 30 boards, 4" x 5" would be $51 shipping, and $156 for the boards themselves. $207 for 30 boards is not bad at all. This is for standard Spec; 1 oz copper, Green Solder mask, white silkscreen, 1.6mm thick - professional looking boards. Anyway, FYI for anyone looking for cheap boards in decent quantity. Futurlec apparently can't compete with this.

Thanks again everyone for your input!

Beanie2k

At our company we use ExpressPCB (different company from PCBExpress) and have had good luck with them. They provide free schematic and layout software, which although definitely no-frills, is easy to learn and good enough for simple to medium complexity designs. Their prices are fairly reasonable for prototype designs, and they now offer 4-layer boards. The one drawback is that their software files are in a proprietary format.

bambino

Thanks Beani2K, I haven't checked into that one. 4 boards fixed price of 179, not too bad!

Ken Peterson

We've used expresspcb.com for a couple of orders and I think they did a good job. The design software is very good and easy to use and learn.· $51 is not a bad investment either.· Too bad you can't get three different boards for that price.

Sparkfun.com has a side business called batchpcb.com.· They will do a two-sided board from your gerber files for $10 + $2.50 per square inch.· No minimum order.· They say they're not very fast because they gather jobs in batches and ship them to a larger fab house (hence the name "batch pcb").· I have not used them before.

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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?

mynet43

I've used BatchPCB before. They do a fine job at a very low cost if you're not in a hurry. As I recall, it takes about 3 weeks because of the way they batch the jobs, ship them overseas and back, etc. I was happy with their work.

As far as layout software, I've tried many of them. I like some of the ones that are specific to the board houses but they lock you in to using their services, which aren't always the best way to go.

I used Eagle for a while but I really don't like it. It's hard to learn and not very intuitive. I'm sure some of you guys like it but it was a constant struggle for me.

I finally ran across DipTrace. It's very easy to learn, totally intuitive and comes with schematic capture, board layout, pattern editor and component editor, so it's easy to make your own components. It has a free version that I used for a long time, it has all the features and is only limited by the number of pads. I liked it so much I upgraded to the next level. It also has auto-routing and auto-layout of components, which I haven't use. It outputs standard Gerber files that I've used with several different board houses with no problems. They also have good support and make regular upgrades when needed.

I have patterns for the two surface mount Propeller chips, which I've tested. I'd be happy to answer any questions about using the software.

Jim

Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)

Jim said...
I finally ran across DipTrace.

I like Diptrace as well. It also includes Spice Support and Import Schematics and PCBs from Eagle.

==============================================================================================================
DipTrace Non-Profit License

Novarm offers a special license for hobbyists who need more power than provided by Freeware or Home Edition, but don't want to spend the price of Standard Edition. This special license is granted on a non-profit base, which means that it must not be used in any commercial purposes (you must not earn money from using it). The non-profit license is a single user license that enables all features of DipTrace Standard Edition (1000 pins, 4 signal layers) and costs only $ 125.

Please contact us for details and ordering.
===============================================================================================================

@ Jim, if you upload your propeller design files I'll try them out.

www.diptrace.com/index.php

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Aka: CosmicBob

Ale

DavidM:

Eagle has a very peculiar way as you said. I learnt it from the ground up, all what I knew before was pretty useless with eagle (not the logic behind a board !, that is always useful). But after some months (plenty, I'd say) I handle it perfectly. It is just a steep (gigantic) learning curve. But well, after 1 year I was able to do pretty good boards. Believe me, it took me one year. It is an excellent software, once you learnt it. It is not one of those that make you suffer (like... window$) every time you use it.

bambino

myNet43,
My computer is loaded with every PCB software downloadable from this thread right now. I got a say the expressPCB is very easy, but I don't want to be tied to one manufacturer.
I've got about an hour with the DipTrace software, and it seems like I might get used to it. Finding my components and getting the PCB layout to show traces from my schematic is my first hurdles.
Do you mind sharing the propeller TQFP component. I think that would be a good start. I saw a few 44pin qfp's, but couldn't find any info on their pitch. and I've built no faith in my use of its grid yet to make my own.

Rayman

I just took a look and it seems that PCB123 and PCBExpress are the same company...

Ken Peterson

For anyone who may be confused: ExpressPCB and PCBExpress are two different companies.

ExpressPCB has very easy to use software but as mentioned already in this thread you are tied to a proprietary format. I also tried PCB123 software and I personally thought it was junk. I was not able to use it without it repeatedly crashing and it was difficult to get it to do what you want.

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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?

mynet43

@ bambino,

You asked for the DipTrace library files for the Propeller chips.

I've included three files:
Surface Mt.eli -- contains the 'component' layout for both the M44 and Q44 surface mount chips.
Surface Mt.lib -- contains the 'pattern' layout for the M44 chip.
p8x32a-q44.lib -- contains the 'pattern' layout for the Q44 chip.

The components in the .eli file should be linked to the patterns in the .lib files.

I've found it pretty easy to make new components.

I've used both of these in boards and have had no problems.

Let me know if you I can help.

Jim

bambino

Thanks, That hit the spot. I'll try them out tonight. Duty Calls!