Something that I think that tends not to be done often with the propeller is to really think through the problem before starting to code. I know I often don't this but if you have a good flowchart before you start and posted it with your code that caused problems it would simplify things a lot.
One of the most useful things about this forum is the Cancel button. There are times when I find myself either thinking about "being short" with a questioner or about to post a reply that's less than generous. I usually manage to notice and click the Cancel button and leave it for someone else with more patience that day (or maybe no one at all if everyone else reads the question and questioner the same way).
stevenmess2004 said...
The problem is knowing how much to give someone.
It really depends on the situation. If I can make a technician look like a hero to his boss, I'll do it, even if it means designing a circuit for him or writing his code. In my business, that's the kind of support that pays off in the long run. But if it's a student with a homework assignment, the objective is to foster understanding by getting the student to do the work. He may not get his assignment turned in on time, but if he gains a scintilla of extra knowledge from having done the work himself, that's what really matters. This kind of assistance requires significantly more skill and patience, though, and I usually defer such inquiries to those more adept at tutoring, as my patience can run thin rather quickly.
There's a Perl forum, PerlMonks.org, that I used to frequent when I was learning Perl. Its denizens are extremely sensitive to student issues and will post HOMEWORK ALERT warnings for threads that look like pleas for homework assistance. (You can almost set your calendar by when they occur.) By and large, the level of help then gets tailored to fostering understanding, rather than just getting the job done.
One aspect of the forums that does disturb me is an apparent disdain for good spelling and grammar among the younger set. I know, I know: this forum isn't about that. But I grieve for the apparent loss of linguistic skills and cringe at the growing mindset that it doesn't matter. Has texting so infused our culture that the art of communicating has been reduced to 1337speak? Cogent expression is an important skill. If we're really here to help people, perhaps it's time to be more proactive about fostering respect for the language arts. I only wish I knew how to do so without raising hackles and creating barriers.
Maybe something in the first post could indicate what the question was for. i.e. homework, hobby, work. But I think that for honest people this won't be a problem. I also think that it isn't a real problem here yet. The propeller isn't widely enough known yet. After all it is only two years old.
I get your point about the English but it is hard for some as English is not their first language. I know my spelling and grammar is not as good as it could be although I do try a little. Thankfully safari has inbuilt spell checking
You do raise a vaild point about English as a second language. That's something we all need to be sensitive to, to avoid alienating those who are trying their best to communicate in a language they're not familiar with. Heaven knows, any attempt I could make to formulate an intelligent question in German or Spanish would be laughable at best. My main concern lies with those for whom a facility with English should be second nature. I wish there were a way to instill some grammatical wisdom to those supplicants, along with the technical assistance they come here in search of.
Edsgar Dijkstra who was the kindest man, but also one of the most elitist, once said: "I do not hire persons that have not mastered their mother's language. How could they accomplish anything acceptable in such a strange matter as a programming language when they have not even succeeded there."
Note he did not request a perfect knowlegde of Dutch
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said...
One aspect of the forums that does disturb me is an apparent disdain for good spelling and grammar among the younger set. I know, I know: this forum isn't about that. But I grieve for the apparent loss of linguistic skills and cringe at the growing mindset that it doesn't matter. Has texting so infused our culture that the art of communicating has been reduced to 1337speak? Cogent expression is an important skill. If we're really here to help people, perhaps it's time to be more proactive about fostering respect for the language arts. I only wish I knew how to do so without raising hackles and creating barriers.
I have a forum on my website, and one of the rules there is that 1337speak is grounds for instant banning.
(Not that it matters much, not even tumbleweeds seems to find the way there these days.)
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I think it is a real problem when "read the manual" is considered rude. We have all read the manual and should continue to do so until we really get it. If someone is trying to write spin and has not read the section on spin programming I would consider it stupid not to suggest to them they start there.
As long as you don't say **** off and read the manual.
Actually some questions about the manual would be helpful to Parallax, "I was reading page XXX of the manual but I don't understand the concept of ......."
As far as the level of grammar etc goes, if someone has not mastered grammar or spelling I don't have too much of a problem with that however if it looks like they didn't even scan what they wrote yet are expecting someone else to spend hours looking at their code that can be annoying. (however I once PMed a guy on another forum about this and he turned out to be dyslexic )
Non-native speakers should relax and just have a go.
In the case of English speakers with bad grammar and non-native speakers of English the best and most polite way to correct is to use what they said in your reply but with the grammar corrected.
"What is the most good propeller bord?"
"The best propeller board is..."
Graham
edit: Grammar corrected, after "helpful" PM [noparse];)[/noparse]
Post Edited (Graham Stabler) : 3/9/2008 1:07:16 PM GMT
And my own earlier point about non-native English speakers was not really about grammar, but that such people often have no clue about how Americans use slang. Even when these people have good grammar, they still don't always know that their wording isn't conveying the polite manners they thought they were using. If readers remain always open to this possibility, they won't be so sensitive to perceived rudeness that was not really there, and realize it was an accident.
Maybe a debugging FAQ should be started on the wiki. If that was available
and easily accessible, you could reference it and/or update it rather than ranting.
A FAQ post is on the stickies, but that is not very dynamic.
Parallax should add a Wiki Sticky. Would adding a Wiki Sticky be a Sticky Wicket?
Graham Stabler said...
As far as the level of grammar etc goes, if someone has not mastered grammar or spelling I don't have too much of a problem with that however if it looks like they didn't even scan what they wrote yet are expecting someone else to spend hours looking at their code that can be annoying. (however I once PMed a guy on another forum about this and he turned out to be dyslexic )
Actually, being dyslexic isn't an excuse.
(Spellcheckers exist... )
My sister is mildly dyslexic, but with her problems relating to numbers(it's probably called something else, then?).
Guess what her job is?
She's a fully qualified ACCOUNTANT!
One of the employees at·my office has a disorder which makes him walk unsteadily, speak slurry and generally act as if he was drunk.(I think he's a teetotaler.)
He works as a lawyer, and a dang good one, too.
The way I see it, there are those who use their disability as a crutch, leaning on it and using it as an excuse their whole life, and there are those who take it as a challenge.
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jazzed said...
Maybe a debugging FAQ should be started on the wiki.
That's another point only lightly touched on so far - This is a Propeller Forum not a support group for people learning how to design, program or debug.
Where advice helps it is usually given and particularly where things may be different with respect to the Propeller than other processors, but for generic issues, "RTM from somewhere else" can be the best advice.
As already mentioned, for those who don't want to commit to hand-holding and/or mentoring, give the most useful advice one can ( that may sometimes be none at all ) and leave it for others to take on what they are prepared to.
Gadgetman, he was also in his early teens. My grammar and spelling were also pretty terrible then and although spell checkers exist you have to know which word to pick and also be somewhere near in the first place. Although a disability can become a crutch it can also undermine self confidence and belief.
I have a friend with dyslexia, he is just about to write up his PhD in solid stage physics but that didn't stop him claiming he couldn't use his phone to send text messages. He wasn't being lazy but trying to send a text message touched still raw nerves about his own self worth. Eventually he was coaxed into using it mainly because of a new girlfriend!! I think even most sucessful people have areas they fear to tread in, like the "non-mathematical" people or the "not very practical".
deSilva said...
My thread was not really about simple or stupid beginner's questions or the different levels of rudeness in American English
Then perhaps it should have included that issue too then, because if you've never noticed that simple rudeness HAS been a problem on this forum from time to time, I'm sure many others have noticed it. And if it's a problem for people trying to get prop support, it's a problem for Parallax and all of us.
In fact, I can answer the question in the title of this thread with one word.... Politely.
@deSilva: It's sometimes difficult to distinquish between a "highjacking" and a "segue". To the extent that my concerns about grammar and spelling represent a highjacking, I apologize for the apparent diversion.
Nonetheless, a question's form and content do go hand-in-hand, as do a program's. There may even be a correlation between algorithms that are expressed poorly in Spin and the authors' questions about them that are expressed poorly in English. In general, I believe that organized thought leads to clear expression, regardless of the medium or whether the language is natural or artificial.
Now, getting back to your original post: If it appears that the programmer has hopelessly "wandered down the garden path", the kindest answer is, "Start over." Trying to fix an ill-conceived program wastes your time and the programmer's time and doesn't contribute anything useful to the forum. But if you have the patience (not to imply that impatience is a shortcoming) to understand what the person is trying to accomplish and to lead him to a solution one tiny step at a time, everyone benefits. I would also suggest this approach in cases where a poster is trying to shoehorn canned software into his own app. If it fits, fine; if not, just don't use it. Canned software that's a poor fit is no different from a program containing deep-seated bugs, and "fixing" it doesn't make it better.
I've been in the military for almost 18 years now. The part of the military I enjoy the most is the teamwork and camaraderie. Parallax has been successful in building a little of this atmoshpere into this web site. I have gotten some great help that's quickly put me back on track when I've been stuck. There's times when you can read the manual and just not get things to make sense.
There's also times when it's just enjoyable to converse, listen to and get ideas from people with like interests. By all means, if I ask for advice or feedback and the reader is annoyed or un-interested, I hope the reader will simply move to the next post. I've never understood the percieved obligation to answer or aggrivation towards those asking simple questions.
deSilva, has given me some great help on a couple of occasions and I have never taken offense to a little healthy sarcasm.
It seems to me there are a couple of broad categories for the posts on the Propeller forum. Posts concerning the more esoteric side i.e. writing compilers is obscure languages, porting software to different OS's ect. On the other end there are a lot of folks just looking to compare and seek advice on practical applications. Makes me wonder if the forum would benefit from breaking the general Propeller thread into a couple sub categories?
joeld said...
Makes me wonder if the forum would benefit from breaking the general Propeller thread into a couple sub categories?
In an ideal world I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But even with the forums' current gross partitioning, posts inevitably end up in the wrong place. Things that should be in the "Sandbox", get posted to the BASIC Stamp forum. I've even seen Stamp questions in "Support for Using this Forum". When a person is desperate for help, subtle distinctions about where to post are going to get lost in the anxiety.
BTW, I'm glad your experience with the forums has been positive overall. Yes, deSilva is a Force of Nature here, whose wry humor we all enjoy!
This thread is being moved from the Propeller Forum to the Sandbox forum.
The main reason for this is that I don’t want to see some of the more negative comments prevent would-be Propeller users from posting questions for fear their question will bring them any negative feedback. I read posts from such members as Unsoundcode, Quattro and Chuck McManus and you guys are on the mark. There is no room on a support site like this to single out individuals who are not only lacking in Propeller knowledge that many of us have, but may be lacking in forum savvy/netiquette.
Everyone has to start somewhere. It is up to those who want to answer to try and provide a clear answer. If the person asking the question still doesn’t get it, we try again or try and refer them to an alternate source of information. It is always your own choice to answer or not. Nobody is forcing anyone to help on these forums. My own opinion is that these forums survive because there are so many individuals willing to share their time and knowledge patiently and who give countless hours of their time without any monetary gain. The satisfaction of having helped someone and possibly gaining a new friend are enough for these people.
We·try to provide adequate forum guidelines and continue to link forum members there when they violate them but the bottom line is (as Phil said), some people in their desire to get an answer don’t even post in the right forum. It is my job to put messages in the correct places and delete duplicate threads. Letting the forum member know is knowledge and will hopefully help them in the future. All we can do is help them with what we can offer. Those who don’t want to help newcomers really should just not do so. To that end I will leave this thread intact, however it is going into the sandbox.
I also want to take a moment to thank personally, on behalf of Parallax, all of you who contribute to the support and content of this forum.· You know who you are, as do the countless forum members you have helped.
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Post Edited (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 3/10/2008 2:42:42 PM GMT
Hopefully you've even opened the door for me to start posting my own questions on the Propeller forum. That's right - I've only done minor experimentation with the Prop so far but I've finally got a project and some time to learn. Just because I'm an insider doesn't mean I'm going to ask Paul, Chip, you and Andy every time I have a question. I'll do my best and hope to utilize the forums like many of our other customers.
Mike Green said...
One of the most useful things about this forum is the Cancel button. There are times when I find myself either thinking about "being short" with a questioner or about to post a reply that's less than generous. I usually manage to notice and click the Cancel button and leave it for someone else with more patience that day (or maybe no one at all if everyone else reads the question and questioner the same way).
I probably do this once a week!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I do it more for the reason of "will I be adding anything and/or will this tick anyone off if I comment?"
As a mechanical eng. doing this stuff as a hobby, I try to learn before asking, but sometimes we can't do that. Just ask. Using the free market policy, if the question is that stupid, it will be answered (hopefully) with a helpful friendly way. If the problem persists (aka "he just won't listen"), eventually no one will help, and ignore the poster, right??? I hate to say that, but in cases where someone wants another to literally "do their homework", then he'll lose out by being lazy.
Some, OTOH, are simply stupid. Most of the time those are obvious, and the experts act accordingly.
And as for deSilva's english... Having lived in Holland for two years, I understand your dialect and humor. Often you are harsh, blunt, and rude. But, that is the northern European way-of-working. The rest of the world simply isn't aware of that. I'm constantly amused by your posts, but never offended. Fortunately, I know how ya'll are, keep in mind, newbies might not. And your spelling can be horrible sometimes, but I guess that's just Phil's pet peeve!
Did this post add anything, NOPE, but I spent so much time typing I couldn't go back (which can be another reason people post Smile).
Just to clarify my position on spelling and grammar: I never meant my comments (as I stated) to apply to those for whom English is not their native language; and I applaud any effort on their part to communicate. Moreover, my concern is not so much a peeve as it is a worry — especially for younger posters — that good communication skills are given short shrift, in either their schooling or their attitudes, but always to their ultimate disadvantage in life. My objective isn't to criticize but to find a way to intervene and help improve those skills, where called for, in addition to providing technical assistance. But being a grammar nazi is certainly not what I had in mind and would, no doubt, be the express lane to pariahhood!
Nonetheless, and for reasons beyond my comprehension, this seems to be a very touchy subject. If there's a consensus that it's entirely inappropriate to consider in a technical forum, I'll be quiet about it. But I do think a discussion about the best ways to help people is appropriate here or, better yet, in a private forum. (BTW, Chris, moving the discussion here was a good call. You might give the private forum idea some consideration, though.)
Now and again I hear about the private forum. For whom is the private forum intended? I know you guys used it when developing the Prop. How does one become "cool enough" to gain access to said forum? [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse] I think the answer might be "Parsko, you aint cool enough!" I know, I know...
There are multiple private forums, each with a special purpose, and which come and go as their needs arise and diminish. My thought was to create a new one so that issues like those brought up in this thread could be discussed frankly, without risking offense to the casual visitor. How membership might be determined is anyone's guess at this nascent stage.
My thoughts on English spelling correctness are simple. One can use a spell checker which supports English. The FREE program shown below supports UK English, Canadian English, and American English as well.
If you want a spell checker that works well with this forum, or on HTML web pages, and you use Internet Explorer, grab a copy of IESPELL, here: http://www.iespell.com/ .
There may be a FoxFire version as well. That showed up on a search for "IESPELL".
It takes a moment for it to load up, but after that it's lightening fast!
Regards,
Bruce Bates
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Programming can't be all that difficult, it's nothing but 1's and 0's
To get back to deSilva's original question a bit. Would it be reasonable to ask for pseudo code, flowchart or something? I know these are often not done (I don't do them as often as I should) but they would really help in understanding what people are trying to do. If they haven't done one than it may also make them do one and they may even learn something.
It would help with a lot of problems that seem to be centred around program flow issues (and things in wrong cogs etc.) and also problems with the actual syntax (which don't seem to happen as often but are either really easy or really hard to find).
Edit: Also, how should you address people? By their actual name (some people put their real name on the end of their thread) or their screen name (the name on their posts)
Post Edited (stevenmess2004) : 3/11/2008 7:16:37 AM GMT
Yes it is unreasonable to ask for a flow chart, let's not try and fix something that isn't broken. This forum is great let's not ruin it. if you don't understand what they are asking or what they are doing just don't answer, it's that simple.
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"A complex design is the sign of an inferior designer." - Jamie Hyneman, Myth Buster
Actually, flowcharts can be very useful in diagnosing why a program doesn't work.
Particularly if it has the branching conditions written in...
It will also show that the person asking questions has a good idea what he's trying to achieve.(or not... )
If a user gives his name in his sig, or othervise in the post, then by all means use it. If not, the screen-name/nick is always OK. (If someone doesn't want it to be used, why pick it in the first place?)
Quotes should always be with the nick, though.
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Comments
Rgds,
John Twomey
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'Necessity is the mother of invention'
-Phil
There's a Perl forum, PerlMonks.org, that I used to frequent when I was learning Perl. Its denizens are extremely sensitive to student issues and will post HOMEWORK ALERT warnings for threads that look like pleas for homework assistance. (You can almost set your calendar by when they occur.) By and large, the level of help then gets tailored to fostering understanding, rather than just getting the job done.
One aspect of the forums that does disturb me is an apparent disdain for good spelling and grammar among the younger set. I know, I know: this forum isn't about that. But I grieve for the apparent loss of linguistic skills and cringe at the growing mindset that it doesn't matter. Has texting so infused our culture that the art of communicating has been reduced to 1337speak? Cogent expression is an important skill. If we're really here to help people, perhaps it's time to be more proactive about fostering respect for the language arts. I only wish I knew how to do so without raising hackles and creating barriers.
-Phil
I get your point about the English but it is hard for some as English is not their first language. I know my spelling and grammar is not as good as it could be although I do try a little. Thankfully safari has inbuilt spell checking
You do raise a vaild point about English as a second language. That's something we all need to be sensitive to, to avoid alienating those who are trying their best to communicate in a language they're not familiar with. Heaven knows, any attempt I could make to formulate an intelligent question in German or Spanish would be laughable at best. My main concern lies with those for whom a facility with English should be second nature. I wish there were a way to instill some grammatical wisdom to those supplicants, along with the technical assistance they come here in search of.
-Phil
Note he did not request a perfect knowlegde of Dutch
(Not that it matters much, not even tumbleweeds seems to find the way there these days.)
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Don't visit my new website...
As long as you don't say **** off and read the manual.
Actually some questions about the manual would be helpful to Parallax, "I was reading page XXX of the manual but I don't understand the concept of ......."
As far as the level of grammar etc goes, if someone has not mastered grammar or spelling I don't have too much of a problem with that however if it looks like they didn't even scan what they wrote yet are expecting someone else to spend hours looking at their code that can be annoying. (however I once PMed a guy on another forum about this and he turned out to be dyslexic )
Non-native speakers should relax and just have a go.
In the case of English speakers with bad grammar and non-native speakers of English the best and most polite way to correct is to use what they said in your reply but with the grammar corrected.
"What is the most good propeller bord?"
"The best propeller board is..."
Graham
edit: Grammar corrected, after "helpful" PM [noparse];)[/noparse]
Post Edited (Graham Stabler) : 3/9/2008 1:07:16 PM GMT
and easily accessible, you could reference it and/or update it rather than ranting.
A FAQ post is on the stickies, but that is not very dynamic.
Parallax should add a Wiki Sticky. Would adding a Wiki Sticky be a Sticky Wicket?
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jazzed·... about·living in·http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley
Traffic is slow at times, but Parallax orders·always get here fast 8)
Timothy and Steven do a nice job ...
Post Edited (deSilva) : 3/9/2008 5:31:36 PM GMT
(Spellcheckers exist... )
My sister is mildly dyslexic, but with her problems relating to numbers(it's probably called something else, then?).
Guess what her job is?
She's a fully qualified ACCOUNTANT!
One of the employees at·my office has a disorder which makes him walk unsteadily, speak slurry and generally act as if he was drunk.(I think he's a teetotaler.)
He works as a lawyer, and a dang good one, too.
The way I see it, there are those who use their disability as a crutch, leaning on it and using it as an excuse their whole life, and there are those who take it as a challenge.
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Don't visit my new website...
That's another point only lightly touched on so far - This is a Propeller Forum not a support group for people learning how to design, program or debug.
Where advice helps it is usually given and particularly where things may be different with respect to the Propeller than other processors, but for generic issues, "RTM from somewhere else" can be the best advice.
As already mentioned, for those who don't want to commit to hand-holding and/or mentoring, give the most useful advice one can ( that may sometimes be none at all ) and leave it for others to take on what they are prepared to.
I have a friend with dyslexia, he is just about to write up his PhD in solid stage physics but that didn't stop him claiming he couldn't use his phone to send text messages. He wasn't being lazy but trying to send a text message touched still raw nerves about his own self worth. Eventually he was coaxed into using it mainly because of a new girlfriend!! I think even most sucessful people have areas they fear to tread in, like the "non-mathematical" people or the "not very practical".
Graham
Then perhaps it should have included that issue too then, because if you've never noticed that simple rudeness HAS been a problem on this forum from time to time, I'm sure many others have noticed it. And if it's a problem for people trying to get prop support, it's a problem for Parallax and all of us.
In fact, I can answer the question in the title of this thread with one word.... Politely.
Post Edited (Brian L) : 3/9/2008 8:31:35 PM GMT
Nonetheless, a question's form and content do go hand-in-hand, as do a program's. There may even be a correlation between algorithms that are expressed poorly in Spin and the authors' questions about them that are expressed poorly in English. In general, I believe that organized thought leads to clear expression, regardless of the medium or whether the language is natural or artificial.
Now, getting back to your original post: If it appears that the programmer has hopelessly "wandered down the garden path", the kindest answer is, "Start over." Trying to fix an ill-conceived program wastes your time and the programmer's time and doesn't contribute anything useful to the forum. But if you have the patience (not to imply that impatience is a shortcoming) to understand what the person is trying to accomplish and to lead him to a solution one tiny step at a time, everyone benefits. I would also suggest this approach in cases where a poster is trying to shoehorn canned software into his own app. If it fits, fine; if not, just don't use it. Canned software that's a poor fit is no different from a program containing deep-seated bugs, and "fixing" it doesn't make it better.
-Phil
There's also times when it's just enjoyable to converse, listen to and get ideas from people with like interests. By all means, if I ask for advice or feedback and the reader is annoyed or un-interested, I hope the reader will simply move to the next post. I've never understood the percieved obligation to answer or aggrivation towards those asking simple questions.
deSilva, has given me some great help on a couple of occasions and I have never taken offense to a little healthy sarcasm.
It seems to me there are a couple of broad categories for the posts on the Propeller forum. Posts concerning the more esoteric side i.e. writing compilers is obscure languages, porting software to different OS's ect. On the other end there are a lot of folks just looking to compare and seek advice on practical applications. Makes me wonder if the forum would benefit from breaking the general Propeller thread into a couple sub categories?
BTW, I'm glad your experience with the forums has been positive overall. Yes, deSilva is a Force of Nature here, whose wry humor we all enjoy!
-Phil
The main reason for this is that I don’t want to see some of the more negative comments prevent would-be Propeller users from posting questions for fear their question will bring them any negative feedback. I read posts from such members as Unsoundcode, Quattro and Chuck McManus and you guys are on the mark. There is no room on a support site like this to single out individuals who are not only lacking in Propeller knowledge that many of us have, but may be lacking in forum savvy/netiquette.
Everyone has to start somewhere. It is up to those who want to answer to try and provide a clear answer. If the person asking the question still doesn’t get it, we try again or try and refer them to an alternate source of information. It is always your own choice to answer or not. Nobody is forcing anyone to help on these forums. My own opinion is that these forums survive because there are so many individuals willing to share their time and knowledge patiently and who give countless hours of their time without any monetary gain. The satisfaction of having helped someone and possibly gaining a new friend are enough for these people.
We·try to provide adequate forum guidelines and continue to link forum members there when they violate them but the bottom line is (as Phil said), some people in their desire to get an answer don’t even post in the right forum. It is my job to put messages in the correct places and delete duplicate threads. Letting the forum member know is knowledge and will hopefully help them in the future. All we can do is help them with what we can offer. Those who don’t want to help newcomers really should just not do so. To that end I will leave this thread intact, however it is going into the sandbox.
I also want to take a moment to thank personally, on behalf of Parallax, all of you who contribute to the support and content of this forum.· You know who you are, as do the countless forum members you have helped.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
Post Edited (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 3/10/2008 2:42:42 PM GMT
Hopefully you've even opened the door for me to start posting my own questions on the Propeller forum. That's right - I've only done minor experimentation with the Prop so far but I've finally got a project and some time to learn. Just because I'm an insider doesn't mean I'm going to ask Paul, Chip, you and Andy every time I have a question. I'll do my best and hope to utilize the forums like many of our other customers.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I probably do this once a week!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I do it more for the reason of "will I be adding anything and/or will this tick anyone off if I comment?"
As a mechanical eng. doing this stuff as a hobby, I try to learn before asking, but sometimes we can't do that. Just ask. Using the free market policy, if the question is that stupid, it will be answered (hopefully) with a helpful friendly way. If the problem persists (aka "he just won't listen"), eventually no one will help, and ignore the poster, right??? I hate to say that, but in cases where someone wants another to literally "do their homework", then he'll lose out by being lazy.
Some, OTOH, are simply stupid. Most of the time those are obvious, and the experts act accordingly.
And as for deSilva's english... Having lived in Holland for two years, I understand your dialect and humor. Often you are harsh, blunt, and rude. But, that is the northern European way-of-working. The rest of the world simply isn't aware of that. I'm constantly amused by your posts, but never offended. Fortunately, I know how ya'll are, keep in mind, newbies might not. And your spelling can be horrible sometimes, but I guess that's just Phil's pet peeve!
Did this post add anything, NOPE, but I spent so much time typing I couldn't go back (which can be another reason people post Smile).
-Parsko
Nonetheless, and for reasons beyond my comprehension, this seems to be a very touchy subject. If there's a consensus that it's entirely inappropriate to consider in a technical forum, I'll be quiet about it. But I do think a discussion about the best ways to help people is appropriate here or, better yet, in a private forum. (BTW, Chris, moving the discussion here was a good call. You might give the private forum idea some consideration, though.)
-Phil
-parsko
There are multiple private forums, each with a special purpose, and which come and go as their needs arise and diminish. My thought was to create a new one so that issues like those brought up in this thread could be discussed frankly, without risking offense to the casual visitor. How membership might be determined is anyone's guess at this nascent stage.
-Phil
My thoughts on English spelling correctness are simple. One can use a spell checker which supports English. The FREE program shown below supports UK English, Canadian English, and American English as well.
If you want a spell checker that works well with this forum, or on HTML web pages, and you use Internet Explorer, grab a copy of IESPELL, here: http://www.iespell.com/ .
There may be a FoxFire version as well. That showed up on a search for "IESPELL".
It takes a moment for it to load up, but after that it's lightening fast!
Regards,
Bruce Bates
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Programming can't be all that difficult, it's nothing but 1's and 0's
It would help with a lot of problems that seem to be centred around program flow issues (and things in wrong cogs etc.) and also problems with the actual syntax (which don't seem to happen as often but are either really easy or really hard to find).
Edit: Also, how should you address people? By their actual name (some people put their real name on the end of their thread) or their screen name (the name on their posts)
Post Edited (stevenmess2004) : 3/11/2008 7:16:37 AM GMT
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"A complex design is the sign of an inferior designer." - Jamie Hyneman, Myth Buster
DGSwaner
Particularly if it has the branching conditions written in...
It will also show that the person asking questions has a good idea what he's trying to achieve.(or not... )
If a user gives his name in his sig, or othervise in the post, then by all means use it. If not, the screen-name/nick is always OK. (If someone doesn't want it to be used, why pick it in the first place?)
Quotes should always be with the nick, though.
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