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Exorbitant export P2 cost on EU — Parallax Forums

Exorbitant export P2 cost on EU

If I want to buy a P2, I only can get them @Parallax

In Europe for a P2 ESb and the IO set 250$, we have to pay 100$ on custom, handling and taxes extra.

If we can get them from Digikey or other local distribution we can avoid it like standard Parallax stuf.
But they don't have it.

Somebody a solution ?

Thank-you
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Comments

  • Yeah, Brexit :lol:

    Seriously though, I have had friends in the US make purchases on my behalf and mail to me as a "gift" and declared a lower value.
  • Ltech wrote: »
    If I want to buy a P2, I only can get them @Parallax

    In Europe for a P2 ESb and the IO set 250$, we have to pay 100$ on custom, handling and taxes extra.

    If we can get them from Digikey or other local distribution we can avoid it like standard Parallax stuf.
    But they don't have it.

    Somebody a solution ?

    Thank-you

    That will change once P2 enters production, and the distributors are able to stock the product line. (Yeah- you knew that, I know).

    The main part of the import fee is usually the VAT, right? We pay 27% here, so I'm with you... it bites!
    Usually when I order stuff from outside Europe, I do that via a tax registered business, so over time I can claim back that 27%. Still got to pay the 5-10% fees though. Seems there's lots of costs and shipment delays introduced with handling the paperwork to charge and then refund tax for European businesses. The goods-delay and additional paperwork taking up my time being the things that cause me most pain, as I'm not generating income to pay more taxes!. A future trade agreement with the USA could bring some long overdue improvements, but sadly that's not really the "solution" you were hoping for today.
  • What happens with partially assembled stuff? Eg manually soldering through hole components to smda assemblies.

    Is there any special treatment for such things where the final assembly takes place inside EU?
  • VonSzarvasVonSzarvas Posts: 3,273
    edited 2019-11-21 11:03
    There might be, but I suspect that would only be relevant at scale. For one-off items the paperwork to obtain exemption would cost far more (in every way) than the value of a few Propeller boards.

    Edit: There must be a process around the taxes though, as both Digi and Mouser "cover the tax and shipping" when ordering goods over 50 Euro. Perhaps they have subsidiaries registered in Europe, which have been granted the import exemption; or maybe they just middle-man the transaction and handle re-claiming of the tax. I've not checked the invoices that closely... maybe they include a Europe registered tax code.
  • It sounds like one solution might be to get some of these products on the Mouser/Digikey sites like the other Parallax products

    I have to admit I have no idea what the incremental effort is involved to list new products. But clearly the EU market matters
  • Yes, the P2ES+AccessorySet+EMIC2 arrived yesterday evening (Italy).

    Over a $324.97 of subtotal order with $47.80 of shipping, for a total of $372.77, the customs was 95.69€ (including a €7.00 of post-office handling ?!? that I don't know what it is because I thought the shipping was already paid at order checkout)
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,066
    And i thought it was bad in Oz!
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 13,800
    I think Parallax could maybe legitimately label these as "commercial samples" (?)

    If so, maybe that would avoid customs?
  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,738
    I feel it's not customs, but VAT
  • It's VAT collected by customs when the goods enter the country. The post office now automaticaly collects it for customs and that's why the handling fee is added.

    In sweden you even pay VAT on the shipping cost, guess that's the same in the rest of the EU.
  • Today P2 revB is declared production P2.
    So I decide to get/charity the evaluation board.

    I make the shopping basket.
    The shipping is around 130$ .... so in Europe we have to pay 230$ extra for a basket of 250$

    I decide not to buy the P2 eval board that way!
    I want to give charity to Parallax but not on this cost.

    Time for different shopping path .

  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,133
    Ltech wrote: »
    Today P2 revB is declared production P2.
    So I decide to get/charity the evaluation board.

    I make the shopping basket.
    The shipping is around 130$ .... so in Europe we have to pay 230$ extra for a basket of 250$

    I decide not to buy the P2 eval board that way!
    I want to give charity to Parallax but not on this cost.

    Time for different shopping path .

    I will ask Ken what we need to do to get it into Digi-Key. I agree that so much money for customs and shipping is a non-starter.
  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,738
    edited 2019-11-22 09:06
    I just ordered my next propeller chips from Mouser and was surprized with 402 hits searchign "Parallax". That I didn't know. Just looked at Digikey, even more hits, but P1 not stocked.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,066
    Type in P8X32A in digikeys search box and up comes 3 microcontrollers, click that and you’ll find the 3 footprints in stock.
  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,738
    only looked for Q44 package and those have 3 weeks lead time.. Anyway, I go with mouser...
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    mouser has good prices for quantities 100 = $5.38 each.

    Bean
  • Perhaps Parallax can officially bill eg $10.00 for the eval board but send it after a paypal donation of the remaining $140.00 indicating the order number and made from the same customer.

    When I have received samples from Maxim, TI, ST, SiLabs ... the parts, in the transport document (bill of lading), was declared as samples with 0 value thus I haven't paid any custom or other fee nor the shipping. The parts was really gifted.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    Unfortunately it won't help buying through DigiKey. At least not for most countries. I've bought other items there in the past, and, in addition to high shipping costs, I had to pay the VAT-handling charges as well. It doesn't really matter where it comes from - Digi or Mouser or anywhere. DigiKey has a Norwegian catalogue, but they're not (unless it happened just now) VAT-registered here. Few international companies are (I can only recall Gear4music right now). And that means the quite substantial VAT-payment handling fee can't be avoided.
  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,738
    As an enduser (consumer) you always have to pay the VAT. Has a US customer just to pay the list price or are there locale and state taxes too? Someone has to pay taxes for taxreturns
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,133
    edited 2019-11-22 17:47
    ErNa wrote: »
    As an enduser (consumer) you always have to pay the VAT. Has a US customer just to pay the list price or are there locale and state taxes too? Someone has to pay taxes for taxreturns

    In the US, you just pay sales tax, which typically runs ~8%.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2019-11-22 17:48
    ErNa wrote: »
    As an enduser (consumer) you always have to pay the VAT. Has a US customer just to pay the list price or are there locale and state taxes too? Someone has to pay taxes for taxreturns

    In the US I do not have to pay state sales tax, (yet), because Parallax does not have a physical store in my state. On the other hand, any thing I buy from Amazon has a sales tax because their presence is everywhere.
  • Yes I want to pay my "normal" tax.
    I don't want to pay twice the price.

    From digikey i get propeller mini for 22 Euro, flip 30E = 33$.
    I pay the same price as from Parallax shop.
    If I buy more than 50 euro, shipping is free

    But no P2 or SIM33EAU GPS on Digikek or Antratek.be
  • Let's talk about the P2 availability in Europe a little more.

    It is our plan that Digi-Key would be the primary stocking distributor for the P2. I was holding off putting any chips and boards into their lineup until we knew the engineering samples were the production parts. And now, they are equivalent. From a distribution standpoint, it's quite easy to put some inventory into Digi-Key.

    The remaining concern with putting P2 into Digi-Key is customer expectations. Forum members know what they're getting in to when they buy a P2. But a Digi-Key browser or new engineer would expect a lot more support than we can currently offer. Programming is primarily in ASM with some BASIC, Spin1 and C with flexgui. There is no Spin2 or amazing code-and-go objects to speed application development, something we claim is a benefit of the P2. These are all reasons to hold off putting the P2 into Digi-Key distribution.

    I may meet with Digi-Key and see if they have a management approach that achieves the goal of (a) reaching the Euro customers, and (b) proper presentation format with an early release concept where expectations can be met.

    Do you see this as a solution? Another alternative is that we partner with one of our smaller EU distributors and make them the outlet for P2 parts and bring in Digi-Key later.

    Ken Gracey
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 13,800
    I still wonder if Parallax can send as samples like says here:
    https://ask.fedex.com/help/en-gb/something-went-wrong/Samples-Import
  • Rayman wrote: »
    I still wonder if Parallax can send as samples like says here:
    https://ask.fedex.com/help/en-gb/something-went-wrong/Samples-Import

    It's a welcome idea and a real possibility, but also impractical for a couple of reasons. One might point out "semiconductor companies are supposed to do this" but we are not funded, are fabless, do not have FAE/sales staff to validate the business potential of requests - and a very small player. In short, we can't give away products and stay in business. Chip designed the P2 in his garage, after all.

    Could we ship samples for free and handle charging on the side? No, it's an ethical issue. I've been around tariffs/VAT for 23 years at Parallax and there aren't comfortable ways around this issue [at least if we want to sleep at night]. Samples are free; that's why there's no VAT on them.

    Our EU customers have it easy compared to those in South America and India. Those customers have it much worse, I assure you. There's only a 50% chance we can successfully ship to Brazil or Argentina unless they accept DHL, and we better have a wealthy customer to pay the import duties.

    It still seems to me that Digi-Key (or RS Components?) might be the best way to get these products to our EU customers.

    Ken Gracey
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 13,800
    I'm not sure you can't charge $$ for the chips, they just can't have any value?

    I don't understand all the rules...
  • Ken, just give them away for free and charge $150 for shipping and handling, so the product value is zero, VAT wise.

    Mike
  • msrobots wrote: »
    Ken, just give them away for free and charge $150 for shipping and handling, so the product value is zero, VAT wise.

    Mike

    I didn't think of that. It's a great idea but it's still not ethical.

    Ken Gracey
  • Ken Gracey wrote: »
    msrobots wrote: »
    Ken, just give them away for free and charge $150 for shipping and handling, so the product value is zero, VAT wise.

    Mike

    I didn't think of that. It's a great idea but it's still not ethical.

    Ken Gracey
    It's nice to hear that there are people who still care about ethics these days.

  • msrobots wrote: »
    Ken, just give them away for free and charge $150 for shipping and handling, so the product value is zero, VAT wise.

    Mike

    Rosco_pc was saying they still charge VAT on shipping

    I'm pretty sure we've bought Altera chips from digikey that have been engineering samples, before. I could look into this if important
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