Ken, just give them away for free and charge $150 for shipping and handling, so the product value is zero, VAT wise.
Mike
I didn't think of that. It's a great idea but it's still not ethical.
Ken Gracey
Well, yes. But they are marked as Engineering Samples and made to be that. I do not intend to push you into un-ethical sins, in fact one of the things I really love about Parallax is the "Mom and Pop" approach, even if it is not Mom and Pop but Brother/Brother.
I had the joy to visit Parallax once (as far as I know the last expo) and was completely surprised and taken by the overall feeling of friendliness, clean and nice work environment, even in places where - usually - companies do NOT care about. Like good light in the warehouse.
For some years in my life I was driving trucks, and - honestly - you can see quite horrible places to work when you deliver/pick up all across Europe and later the US.
Parallax is doing quite well on that scale, in fact I was leaving there with the feeling I really would like to work there, but - hmm - I guess I am not really qualified for any position. No mainframe in sight, no need for COBOL in general.
Luckily I was able to leave Europe for the US of A and I do not regret it at all, but the VAT in Europe is 21%, putting that on top of $150 + shipping seems to be to much for some people who really should be able get a sample and contribute.
One could argue that it is un-ethical to exclude Finns/Scandinavians/Italians and (arguable) Germans to participate. (I am German, I am allowed to say that)
Since you rightfully explained that a distribution via DigiKey might need more preparation, you should consider giving early adaptors a better chance.
Something like one delivery as sample to someone who would send them out like @Publison will do for the P2D2.
Anyways, I am quite happy of having both revisions and hope to find some time soon to adapt the ringbuffer to rev B too. Everything else seems to work fine on both revisions right now.
Mike, I understand your points and thank you for the compliments towards Parallax! Your ideas are good and have merit. Here's a bit more of my thinking.
Perhaps the use of the word "ethics" isn't the right word because I really don't care if the EU collects their VAT. What I do care about is getting Parallax wrapped up in a mess that I have no time to fix, like negotiating whether or not VAT will be paid on specific shipments (just the other day, Chip mentioned the desire to send a P2 Evaluation Board to So America but we'd be paying customs fees for the customer). Usually, these workarounds become a problem for us on small or big scale.
There's also the time-prioritization responsibility. For example, if I can give Publison a box of chips to ship or use the time to set up Digi-Key. I should probably do the latter since we'll need Digi-Key on board with P2 for the future anyway. Using Publison is a great idea, but I'd want to get all of the data entered into our system so we know where they shipped. It's a small thing to do but it all takes time.
I'm trying to keep things simple, which is also sustainable and hopefully productive.
I'm really short on time these days, and this drives priorities like never before. It's not my desired arrangement. Seemingly simple solutions because really difficult for me to implement.
For new stufs or small batches, it is not reasonable to get them out of USA.
We last need 50 gps modulles, I try to get the SIM33EAU from Parallax.
It was double the price of the Adafruit ultimate gps V3 to get them in Belgium
I can go on holiday, and try to get stuff delivery at hotel.
Ken, no need to do special favor for me.
I guess there are lots of European customers around with the same frustration.
Parallax is aware of the situation, and I feel you try the best to get it right.
Use you time to make P2 great like P1.
Perhaps make some education class in Europe. It is a potential great market.
If it was for my boss, it don't matter . We can refund the tax part, with lot of paperworks.
But for hobby one piece, +50% is a bumper!
Can't believe nobody is picking up on this opportunity....outside of Parallax.
No law against selling for less than the purchase price. And no law against being "reimbursed" separately by PayPal for going to the trouble of finding and using a low-cost shipping method. They do exist.
Ken, just give them away for free and charge $150 for shipping and handling, so the product value is zero, VAT wise.
Mike
That won't work for most (all EU ?) countries, as fees apply to total value, including shipping.
VAT is the main cost, which is 100% re-claimable when the recipient is a tax registered entity. (Sure, private individuals cannot reclaim, and are charged the local VAT rate when the shipment total is over a certain value- often 150 EUR).
Duty is the next cost, and varies from 0 to 17%. Many electronic goods are duty free, but this is one area where "country interpretation" can vary a lot.
Fees.... Whenever the import agent has to deal with customs procedures, the fees are added. UPS & FedEx are typically 2.5% of customs total, plus a fixed $15-$20 handling fee. The local post office here charges about $35 fee plus the % of customs total. There's a lot of pigs in the trough to protect the single market and perpetuate inefficiency.
It still seems to me that Digi-Key (or RS Components?) might be the best way to get these products to our EU customers.
Ken Gracey
Sure. Digi-Key & Mouser both deliver "tax free" and shipping free to Europe on a 2-3 day service, when the customer spends over 50 EUR. ("tax free"- The shipper covers the tax and duties costs, and handles the import paperwork, so the goods arrive seamlessly from the customer POV).
RS Components provide next-day delivery across Europe, and being an EU based company there's no import costs for customers. I think they charge for shipping, but that's rarely a big deal and next-day delivery is worth something, I think.
Can't believe nobody is picking up on this opportunity....outside of Parallax.
No law against selling for less than the purchase price. And no law against being "reimbursed" separately by PayPal for going to the trouble of finding and using a low-cost shipping method. They do exist.
They do, but they fudge the rules somewhere, as the ultimate sale onto the end-user (non-taxable entity) within Europe would still attract the sales tax (VAT) if the rules were being followed as they are intended. Or the income would be taxable for someone operating a business under the VAT threshold. (Furthermore, that case of the seller being under the threshold would not be good for business customers, as they'd need to account for VAT under the reverse-charge mechanism. It's a mess, and someone will/should pay!)
Isn't this all a temporary issue anyway ?
Considering that Digi-key, Mouser, RS (and maybe others) already stock a good range of Parallax products, and also provide the service of shipping to Europe without the additional tax burden, then it seems there's nothing here that time won't solve.
It's only in this case, that the brand new products (or prototype products) haven't got to the distributors yet.
They certainly will get there soon enough, and then (I hope?) this question is resolved ?
... Or is there the case that EU customers would still prefer to purchase directly from Parallax, even if there is a local distro ?? Would Parallax creating an EU entity to handle EU sales make any sense whatsoever? Sure it's doable, and it's not overly difficult to set things up, but isn't that just adding "operational overhead" to a process that the distro's already handle?
(Caveat- I fully understand I'm not including the original point here, that @LTech wanted to buy some new products that are not yet in distro, and that he wanted to support Parallax with some P2 investment now. I don't mean to offend your position, and I really understand your desire to get the product NOW! I think a general trade agreement between US and EU might really help in the future, but it's just a tricky thing to solve today).
It's not just a Parallax issue; I recently looked at ordering $50 worth of LS7366 devices from Anaheim Automation...the shipping alone came to $94 and I would then be charged a further 20% on the total of $144.
I have, for many years been purchasing motion controllers and PLCs from Galil Motion Control (1.3 miles from Parallax). Each order was $2,500. I had friends make the purchase and ship to me as "computer parts" with a low declared value.
I have now built my own equivalent for <$200.
This is what the unpopular POTUS is trying to even-up, I guess.
VAT is not such a big deal for VAT registered companies because they claim it all back.
And here we go again "Starting today we're all-in to run the biggest promotion ever: 20% off all 350+ products in our store"
Still 30% more to get in Europe, compare to local distribution and no 20% off.
Comments
Well, yes. But they are marked as Engineering Samples and made to be that. I do not intend to push you into un-ethical sins, in fact one of the things I really love about Parallax is the "Mom and Pop" approach, even if it is not Mom and Pop but Brother/Brother.
I had the joy to visit Parallax once (as far as I know the last expo) and was completely surprised and taken by the overall feeling of friendliness, clean and nice work environment, even in places where - usually - companies do NOT care about. Like good light in the warehouse.
For some years in my life I was driving trucks, and - honestly - you can see quite horrible places to work when you deliver/pick up all across Europe and later the US.
Parallax is doing quite well on that scale, in fact I was leaving there with the feeling I really would like to work there, but - hmm - I guess I am not really qualified for any position. No mainframe in sight, no need for COBOL in general.
Luckily I was able to leave Europe for the US of A and I do not regret it at all, but the VAT in Europe is 21%, putting that on top of $150 + shipping seems to be to much for some people who really should be able get a sample and contribute.
One could argue that it is un-ethical to exclude Finns/Scandinavians/Italians and (arguable) Germans to participate. (I am German, I am allowed to say that)
Since you rightfully explained that a distribution via DigiKey might need more preparation, you should consider giving early adaptors a better chance.
Something like one delivery as sample to someone who would send them out like @Publison will do for the P2D2.
Anyways, I am quite happy of having both revisions and hope to find some time soon to adapt the ringbuffer to rev B too. Everything else seems to work fine on both revisions right now.
Enjoy!
Mike
Perhaps the use of the word "ethics" isn't the right word because I really don't care if the EU collects their VAT. What I do care about is getting Parallax wrapped up in a mess that I have no time to fix, like negotiating whether or not VAT will be paid on specific shipments (just the other day, Chip mentioned the desire to send a P2 Evaluation Board to So America but we'd be paying customs fees for the customer). Usually, these workarounds become a problem for us on small or big scale.
There's also the time-prioritization responsibility. For example, if I can give Publison a box of chips to ship or use the time to set up Digi-Key. I should probably do the latter since we'll need Digi-Key on board with P2 for the future anyway. Using Publison is a great idea, but I'd want to get all of the data entered into our system so we know where they shipped. It's a small thing to do but it all takes time.
I'm trying to keep things simple, which is also sustainable and hopefully productive.
I'm really short on time these days, and this drives priorities like never before. It's not my desired arrangement. Seemingly simple solutions because really difficult for me to implement.
Ken Gracey
For new stufs or small batches, it is not reasonable to get them out of USA.
We last need 50 gps modulles, I try to get the SIM33EAU from Parallax.
It was double the price of the Adafruit ultimate gps V3 to get them in Belgium
I can go on holiday, and try to get stuff delivery at hotel.
Ken, no need to do special favor for me.
I guess there are lots of European customers around with the same frustration.
Parallax is aware of the situation, and I feel you try the best to get it right.
Use you time to make P2 great like P1.
Perhaps make some education class in Europe. It is a potential great market.
If it was for my boss, it don't matter . We can refund the tax part, with lot of paperworks.
But for hobby one piece, +50% is a bumper!
No law against selling for less than the purchase price. And no law against being "reimbursed" separately by PayPal for going to the trouble of finding and using a low-cost shipping method. They do exist.
That won't work for most (all EU ?) countries, as fees apply to total value, including shipping.
VAT is the main cost, which is 100% re-claimable when the recipient is a tax registered entity. (Sure, private individuals cannot reclaim, and are charged the local VAT rate when the shipment total is over a certain value- often 150 EUR).
Duty is the next cost, and varies from 0 to 17%. Many electronic goods are duty free, but this is one area where "country interpretation" can vary a lot.
Fees.... Whenever the import agent has to deal with customs procedures, the fees are added. UPS & FedEx are typically 2.5% of customs total, plus a fixed $15-$20 handling fee. The local post office here charges about $35 fee plus the % of customs total. There's a lot of pigs in the trough to protect the single market and perpetuate inefficiency.
Sure. Digi-Key & Mouser both deliver "tax free" and shipping free to Europe on a 2-3 day service, when the customer spends over 50 EUR. ("tax free"- The shipper covers the tax and duties costs, and handles the import paperwork, so the goods arrive seamlessly from the customer POV).
RS Components provide next-day delivery across Europe, and being an EU based company there's no import costs for customers. I think they charge for shipping, but that's rarely a big deal and next-day delivery is worth something, I think.
They do, but they fudge the rules somewhere, as the ultimate sale onto the end-user (non-taxable entity) within Europe would still attract the sales tax (VAT) if the rules were being followed as they are intended. Or the income would be taxable for someone operating a business under the VAT threshold. (Furthermore, that case of the seller being under the threshold would not be good for business customers, as they'd need to account for VAT under the reverse-charge mechanism. It's a mess, and someone will/should pay!)
Isn't this all a temporary issue anyway ?
Considering that Digi-key, Mouser, RS (and maybe others) already stock a good range of Parallax products, and also provide the service of shipping to Europe without the additional tax burden, then it seems there's nothing here that time won't solve.
It's only in this case, that the brand new products (or prototype products) haven't got to the distributors yet.
They certainly will get there soon enough, and then (I hope?) this question is resolved ?
... Or is there the case that EU customers would still prefer to purchase directly from Parallax, even if there is a local distro ?? Would Parallax creating an EU entity to handle EU sales make any sense whatsoever? Sure it's doable, and it's not overly difficult to set things up, but isn't that just adding "operational overhead" to a process that the distro's already handle?
(Caveat- I fully understand I'm not including the original point here, that @LTech wanted to buy some new products that are not yet in distro, and that he wanted to support Parallax with some P2 investment now. I don't mean to offend your position, and I really understand your desire to get the product NOW! I think a general trade agreement between US and EU might really help in the future, but it's just a tricky thing to solve today).
I have, for many years been purchasing motion controllers and PLCs from Galil Motion Control (1.3 miles from Parallax). Each order was $2,500. I had friends make the purchase and ship to me as "computer parts" with a low declared value.
I have now built my own equivalent for <$200.
This is what the unpopular POTUS is trying to even-up, I guess.
VAT is not such a big deal for VAT registered companies because they claim it all back.
We all agree, and talk in the same direction.
And here we go again "Starting today we're all-in to run the biggest promotion ever: 20% off all 350+ products in our store"
Still 30% more to get in Europe, compare to local distribution and no 20% off.
Big Big Day today.
😊
Ordered trough DigiKey to Europe Belgium, takes 2 day!!!
P2 edge : 32,46 €
JonMcPhalen breadboard : 42,77 €
No taxes, no extra transport.
I love the concept of the edge ! The Breadboard is really great.
Thx for reminding me of Digikey! Hopefully we Europeans will be able to purchase lots of Parallax products through them!