Who owns the codes here?

mosquito56

·· I was just reading a post concerning mp3. With all the problems in the past concerning propriatary formats, I was wondering who and for what someone can use the code found here.
·· Is it GNU unless otherwise specified? Can I use it as long as I give the original owner his props? I don't change the headers for this exact reason. I don't even change the filenames unless I do major mods to it and the original writer would scream in terror if he saw it.
·Who owns it and can I use it commercially in a product?

Your patience is appreciated as I am technologically challanged

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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.

·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!

Paul Baker

I can't remember which liscencing scheme it most closely resembles, but code on the object exchange (and forums unless otherwise stated) is considered "public domain". Meaning anyone can use it in whatever way they see fit, including commercial products. The only exception to this is if someone posts a link to thier own website which contains the code, or explicitly state which liscence scheme they intend the code to be under when released on the forums, then you must follow whichever liscensing scheme they release thier code under.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/28/2007 9:53:09 PM GMT

mosquito56

Great, glad to hear it.

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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.

·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!

CardboardGuru

Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
I can't remember which liscencing scheme it most closely resembles, but code on the foums and the object exchange is considered "public domain".

The Parallax code might be, but you can't make that assumption for anything else that's posted here.

I certainly retain copyright on the source files that I attach, it says as much in the comments at the top of them. I'm quite happy for people to have them for their own use and interest, but they are not free for use as part of commercial packages without my permission.

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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
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Paul Baker

Code posted to the Object Exchange is explicitly public domain, this is why you won't see code posted by certain people there. You are correct that the forums is a different beast, and why I changed some of the wording in my original post. Copyright is a different issue than liscensing, and the two should be talked about seperately since a person can maintain copyright on code in the public domain. For those people who post code to thier projects on the forums they should state both in the post and the code which liscensing agreement they want thier code to be used under, and a statement of copyright should be used in the program header.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

mosquito56

Now you've got me. Do I need a liscense to use the code?

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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.

·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!

Paul Baker

Depends on where you get it, obex.parallax.com use however you wish. On the forums ask the author.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

mosquito56

Thanx

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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.


Technologically challenged individual, Please have pity.

Rayman

I don't (or didn't) think just posting code in this forum made it public domain. I don't remember reading any disclosure rules when I joined the forum. Did I miss something?

Paul Baker

It's a grey area, Raymond with no hard and fast rules. In general posting code in a public forum is public disclosure, copyright is maintained by the author, but without the author stating which liscensing scheme they have released thier code under, it is an unknown situation legally. We are not going to enforce any type of liscensing scheme of forum posts, it is the responsibility of the author to state thier intent. For those people wishing to use posted code which hasn't stated thier PL scheme, they are best served by asking the author's permission.

Released Parallax code will always be public domain, we believe that openess fosters better understanding and learning, but we also recognize the needs of our customers to protect thier efforts so they can share thier efforts with the community without fear of having someone rip off thier hard work. The Object exchange is different because we want a uniform understanding of anyone wishing to use code posted there without fear of getting lawyers involved.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/28/2007 11:07:55 PM GMT

Rayman

I didn't mean "disclosure" (bad word choice). But, my very limited understanding of the Millenium Copyright Law was that any code is copyrighted by the author even if it doesn't include a copyright statement. I don't see how you can forfeit your rights by publishing a code in a forum...

Paul Baker

Like I said before liscensing and copyright are two distinct issues, they are not synonymous. For those with concerns of how thier published code is used, they should state thier PL scheme explicitly.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Paul,

Any idea why code that's, say, GPL'd or LGPL'd isn't allowed in the Object Exchange? As much as I'd love to contribute, I'm reluctant to make my code public domain. Plus, with a license like the GPL, Parallax's goals of openness are more likely to be realized, since that openness is enforced and perpetuated via the license. With public domain, it's a lot easier for someone to use code without proper attribution of credit or, even worse, to claim credit for it and, worst of all, to claim exclusive rights to it. At least with the GPL, there's a documented "paper trail".

Thanks,
Phil

Rayman

Here's a slashdot article from last month on this topic:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/28/1823205

Rayman

Paul,

Why is posting a code on my website any different than posting it here?

Mike Green

Rayman,
The "owner" of the website gets to set the rules just as the publisher of a journal sets the rules for the handling of submissions.
It's better (and more enforcible) if the rules are clearly stated and posted so they are readily available (and can be acknowledged
in writing).
Mike

CardboardGuru

It seems to me that copyright and licencing issues are complex legal matters. There are plenty of lawyers that just specialise in it. So we're unlikely to come to any hard and fast conclusions here. And it's not really fair to push Paul to provide all the answers - I don't imagine he's a lawyer.

It seems to me that the best advice both legally and for the goodwill of the community is:

• Use parallax code as you please. They've given permission.
• Use any other code available here for personal use.
• But consult with the author of the code if you want to distribute it or any derivative of it outside of these forums.

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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK

Paul Baker

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said...
Paul,

Any idea why code that's, say, GPL'd or LGPL'd isn't allowed in the Object Exchange? As much as I'd love to contribute, I'm reluctant to make my code public domain. Plus, with a license like the GPL, Parallax's goals of openness are more likely to be realized, since that openness is enforced and perpetuated via the license. With public domain, it's a lot easier for someone to use code without proper attribution of credit or, even worse, to claim credit for it and, worst of all, to claim exclusive rights to it. At least with the GPL, there's a documented "paper trail".

Thanks,
Phil

Hi Phil, you were the one I was alluding to for someone which won't post thier code to Obex. We have a blanket public domain on Obex because we want a no-nonsense, completely understood by the lay person, means for using the code. As helpful to many people as GPL is, it is way too onerous of a liscensing scheme when viewed from the commercial perspective (anything derived from GPL must itself be GPL). There simply isn't a liscensing scheme which can be all things to all people, so we've choosen the lowest common denominator: public domain. The last thing we want for the obex is to have a patchwork of PLs that a potential user has to sift through in figuring out which objects they can and can't use in thier project depending on what thier intended use is.


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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Rayman

I like the Object Exchange.· I've benefited a great deal from things there.· But, I (and I don't have the best memory) seem to recall seeing some code there with a copyright statement.· Shouldn't any code there be stripped of copyrights?

Paul Baker

No Rayman, you are still equating copyright and liscensing, these are two different concepts, it is entirely possible to own the copyright on public domain software. All of Parallax's released code is copyrighted by Parallax and we maintain the copyright on it, we as the copyright holders provide unlimited use of the code in original and modfied form, but we at no point have relinquished our copyright on it.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/29/2007 1:35:23 AM GMT

Rayman

My only problem with any of this is the people who take code and claim it to be their own without any reference to the author. That, and people who sell things they find posted without obtaining a license. I'm sure it's to Parallax's benefit to think that anything posted here is free for all, but I don't think that's the case. I suppose one good thing with this chip is that with (I think Hippy's) some tools here it's easy to decompile and figure out where code came from. So, anybody thinking of selling something with stolen code ought to think twice. But, I'm really not aware of too many commercial products based on this chip. But, I think that may change, in time.

Paul Baker

The choice isn't that complicated. If you don't care what people do with your object and you want to share it with maximum benifit to all, then post it to the Obex. If however you want to maintain control over how it's used, you can post it to the forums and state which PL you are releasing it under. There are some commercial products based on the Propeller, but certainly we would like there to be more. It serves us no benifit to provide a multitude·of objects but then attach all sorts of strings on thier use, we want as many commercial entities to use our chip as possible. If they need to involve thier lawyers each and every project they create using the Propeller and Obex objects, they are less likely to use the chip. If you don't like the rules of the Obex, thats fine, just don't post to it.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/29/2007 1:53:13 AM GMT

Rayman

Sorry, I wasn't talking about Obex. I'm only concerned about the forum postings. I think the Obex rules are pretty clear.

Paul Baker

It is what the author says it is. Alot of this is sortof an overarching "hypothetical victim" arguement. Truth be told, it doesn't matter what PL your using, dishonest people behave dishonestly regardless of what you do to try to CYA. And whats the likelyhood of you catching them? Less than beng struck by lighting (unless it's a big guy like M$ since what they do gets more scutiny than most).

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

One of the things that pushed the personal computer forward in it's early stages is the openness and sharing of ideas and code between those who worked with it. (Reference: Homebrew computer club) The speed at which the Propeller is moving is because of the same emphasis on sharing information and code. The propeller community will continue to benefit from those who are able to openly contribute to the resource pool. Personally, I would be most concerned about a commercial venture using freely provided code for their own profit. GPL type license handles this decently.

OBC

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Mike Green

Paul,
I think Rayman echos some of my confusion. I understand the distinction between copyright and licensing and I think I understand Parallax's intention behind the Object Exchange. I would like to see a clear description of the rules of the Obex posted prominently for both contributors and users of contributed items. Part of my including a copyright notice in some of my contributed stuff was my feeling the lack of a clearly stated set of foundational rules or assumptions and I clearly noticed that others (like Chip and Rokicki) had copyright notices in their contributions.
Mike

Harrison.

I didn't realize the object exchange was for 'public domain' code only. It was never specifically stated, so I released my code under the GPL and posted it there. I think Parallax should come up with a written license that states the licensing restrictions since some interpretations of 'public domain' say that there can be no copyright attached. (www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Apublic+domain&btnG=Search)

I have re-released my enc28j60 spi driver object with just a plain copyright, without the GPL restrictions.

Harrison

Post Edited (Harrison.) : 12/29/2007 2:37:33 AM GMT

hippy

Harrison. said...
I have re-released my enc28j60 spi driver object with just a plain copyright, without the GPL restrictions.

Partly in jest, partly in all seriousness ....

Can you do that ? Isn't that a release of a derivative work with the GPL licensing removed which is contrary to the GPL you imposed upon the original ?

Paul Baker

OK public domain is the wrong phrase, consider the obex to be BSD liscensing. As stated before we cannot permit GPL code on the obex, how fair is it if a company is forced to release all of thier source code because they chose to use your I2C object, regardless of how inconsequential the object is to thier overall product?

Alternatively you could look at the obex as royality free liscensing, you retain the rights to it's use, you just choose not to enforce your rights (other than your right to remove the original source availibility).

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/29/2007 3:31:02 AM GMT

Mike Green

hippy,
The original author can always re-release a work with fewer restrictions.
You do have problems if you try to impose more restrictive conditions.

Paul Baker

After looking at obex, I think what I've said is essentially the same as "for use by everyone in the community" as stated on the front page. Legally all words are given thier broadest possible meaning, "for use" means for any purpose possibly conceivible both now and in the future, and this includes for commercial purposes. "everyone in the community" means anyone using the Propeller, including those who are making products for sale. I will put the question if we want to define that more explicity on the agenda for the next meeting.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.