What is needed
deSilva
Posts: 2,967
DeSilva contributes to this forum for half a year now, and he gets a little bit tired. There has been the chance to learn (I did not know much of the Propeller when I started here, and my English has improved as well...), and some very entertaining discussions. But one cannot explain 99 times how COGNEW works and why you need a resistor, and that there are obvious limits to hi-res graphics and that the IDE will not warn you when you try to launch a method in anothr object by COGNEW....
Except your name is Mike...
On the other hand I do not have the capacity to prepare all the "Tutorials" I intended to... There is also some stupid work I have to earn my living with.
However it has become obvious to me that what is needed - needed for a year now! - is some structured information regarding the following topics:
(1) What is available at all. I do not mean a list only, but a strict review through Parallax Code, the Object Library, and some experimental things posted in this forum only. This must include a quality assessment, personal and unfair as it may be.
(2) For each "useful" item of that list a
* rational for its existence
* scope of its appliance
* user interface documentation
has to be prepared, preferably in a standardized form, but best of course by the authors themselves
(3) Useful but problematic items have to be recoded, also the user interface of many programs (most obviously: TV) has to be streamlined...
(4) A "User's Guide to the Wealth of the Propeller Software" has to be prepared, explaining how to use the Objects, with examples, also exercising the features of SPIN...
(5) A Tutorial "How to get started with the Propeller using the most popular Objects" would be a nice addition to the comprehensive "User's Guide"
I am fully aware that the educational information from Parallax just goes in this direction, and I am the one who has recommended reading AN001 most often. However I have got the impression they are not read with the enthusiasm they deserve.
Except your name is Mike...
On the other hand I do not have the capacity to prepare all the "Tutorials" I intended to... There is also some stupid work I have to earn my living with.
However it has become obvious to me that what is needed - needed for a year now! - is some structured information regarding the following topics:
(1) What is available at all. I do not mean a list only, but a strict review through Parallax Code, the Object Library, and some experimental things posted in this forum only. This must include a quality assessment, personal and unfair as it may be.
(2) For each "useful" item of that list a
* rational for its existence
* scope of its appliance
* user interface documentation
has to be prepared, preferably in a standardized form, but best of course by the authors themselves
(3) Useful but problematic items have to be recoded, also the user interface of many programs (most obviously: TV) has to be streamlined...
(4) A "User's Guide to the Wealth of the Propeller Software" has to be prepared, explaining how to use the Objects, with examples, also exercising the features of SPIN...
(5) A Tutorial "How to get started with the Propeller using the most popular Objects" would be a nice addition to the comprehensive "User's Guide"
I am fully aware that the educational information from Parallax just goes in this direction, and I am the one who has recommended reading AN001 most often. However I have got the impression they are not read with the enthusiasm they deserve.
Comments
This is a monumental task which cannot be accomplished by one person, but seriously needs
to be done. (Hey Parallax, want a distance employee for 10-20 hours a week? [noparse]:)[/noparse] Seriously,
I have the same problem, a real job that requires my attention, even self-employed.
If some sort of online database were created for each object, which could allow entries
for multiple users, perhaps we could shift to work to many instead of one or two of us.
I'm tempted to write something like this in perl myself. Then anyone with knowledge
and a few minutes. could add entries for object methods they are familar with.
I'm not sure it's fair to rate an object for it's value. In writing PropDOS I happened over
several very minor pieces of spincode which wouldn't seem useful on their own, but worked
wonderfully in the program.
Question is, how do we structure this project so that many can share the load?
OBC
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Just getting started with Propeller?
Propeller Cookbook
PropDOS
It's easy to take a 'something is better than nothing, here it is, you go figure it out' approach, but that doesn't mean there isn't a need for good quality, useful, educational documentation and tutorials. It can however be a daunting and mammoth task. Too much for just one person even with the best intentions.
Wiki, a set of rules and someone to create the initial structure and keep it as it should be ?
> for multiple users, perhaps we could shift to work to many instead of one or two of us.
In my eyes, the only thing Parallax could do, it to write AppNotes and AppNotes and AppNotes. Not just one, but a bunch.
I don't think that Microchip's line of µCs is superior to anybody's else. But what is superior (compared to Atmel, for example) are their AppNotes. Just pick what you need, read the interface and c&p the code to the place you need it in. Great! Saved me a lot of time.
OTOH, as Parallax is more targeted to the hobbyist (no pun intened) the targeted audience has more problems searching for information then posting a question.
deSilva's manual is great (*THANKS*) but it's simply not enough. I'm not a newbie in ASM, but some things simply need explanation. And that should be Parallax's task.
Nick
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Never use force, just go for a bigger hammer!
The DIY Digital-Readout for mills, lathes etc.:
YADRO
The Propeller Wiki exists, and there already exists lists for games and graphics drivers.
http://propeller.wikispaces.com/Games
http://propeller.wikispaces.com/graphics+drivers
If someone wants to do general list of objects linked to an individual page about each one, then you will be more than welcome!
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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK
but I'd be willing to help. Can Wiki be configured to allow for a master index that would link to
pages that folks to easily add to? I'm picturing a linked alphabetical list of the objects, then the
object page would have a direct link to the listing in the Obex and a description of what it does.
Then folks could submit the usage methods below. If I wrote this, I might have used something
like a "COMMENTS" field to an article for simplicity. With exception to a few people, I suspect
that most of us have only really used a few functions of various objects and could write about
the parts we understand.
Bottom line with this, we need to keep the format very, very simple, as hippy said, most of
us are looking forward to "exciting projects" -- but many hands make light work.
OBC
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Just getting started with Propeller?
Propeller Cookbook
PropDOS
The wiki will let anyone create new pages, or edit any of the existing pages. You get a nice simple to use WYSIWYG editor, and can set up tables and links to other wiki pages or external files.
Best thing to do is just to dive in and learn by doing. Find a page with something you can improve on and hit edit and go. You don't even need to sign up if you don't want to. (Though I like it when people do so we can see who's made what edits.)
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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK
I'll construct the format..
OBC
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Just getting started with Propeller?
Propeller Cookbook
PropDOS
What about changing it so Hydra development/comments are on a branch off a general propeller home page?
Time for group brain-dump. (Some some like myself, this may only take a few seconds. [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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Just getting started with Propeller?
Propeller Cookbook
PropDOS
It only leans towards the Hydra because that's the first board I had, so I biased it that way in originally generating some content. But it is intended to be open for absolutely any Propeller related content for any board. I've removed the comment at the top that suggested it was specifically for Hydra. Further down there is an (incomplete) list of boards, from which the Hydra content can be accessed.
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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK
The only problem I have there is with its layout; a lot of screen real estate lost on the left for an index and on the right for advertising links ( about 45% lost on 800x600 ). I found it 'uncomfortable' and never contributed - Click on the "Help" link at the top and it's just so much nicer having a reasonable width for text.
On the flip side, making a contribution is pretty dead simple.
BTW: DeSilva, thanks! I personally have learned a ton, following your posts. Appreciated huge.
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
There are plenty of posts about simple tasks, just because they include a propeller does not mean they are more complicated (like a matrix keyboard). (I tend to avoid those). There are other about an idea, those are much more interesting. And those about a concrete problem related to the propeller (and do not include how the instructions work).
The big point is that most people avoid reading TFM. They are too thick, or too short in schemes, or .. or .. or. They do not read. Is easier to ask. Even if Parallax recommends loads of downloadables with all sort of info... people will avoid reading them. Sad but true. People can find loads of useful info, just reading what was already written without need to ask again (like the prop2 related threads!).
I tell you a case: In the floor where I work there are two groups of labs, the one I belong says clearly Organische Chemie (Organic Chemistry), the other one says : Chemie f
It probably is and I'm perhaps fickle that way; if it doesn't 'rock my boat', I'm happy to let it be, but it takes rocking my boat to get me actively engaged. With limited resources those which appeal most ultimately get my main attention.
I'm best at filling in the gaps, making contributions as and when I can, so if there were a structure in place ( chapters, titles, sub-sections and so forth ) I'd find it easier to work with. I'm spread too thin to be creative other than where I already am.
It's the perennial problem of any major documentation project needing multiple skills, organizers, editors and expert monkeys ( and I mean that with absolutely no offence ) who can just come along and bash in their words of wisdom in the right place without worrying about anything else, done and dusted for their part. In management speak I guess it boils down to maximising each individual's potential without encumbering them with things they know nothing and care nothing of.
In the past, I have used DokuWiki as a hobbyist and in a work environment. I would be more than willing to administrate, maintain, assist and contribute to this wiki. Also, DokuWiki contains a "playground" section so that users can experiment with it before editing any of the pages. Back in July 2007, I started an SX/C wiki in hopes of doing the same documenting and sharing of projects geared towards the SX C compiler. Unfortunately, my mom had fallen ill around that time, and I was not able to work on the SX/C wiki. Now, I am back, and I would like to revamp the project for the Propeller since there is great interest in a wiki to track the various documentation, source code, and projects.
CardboardGuru, I sincerely hope that I do not offend you by offering to host/recreate the wiki due to the time and effort that you have already put into yours. This is merely a suggestion in hopes of allowing all the users to be able to access and edit the wiki with ease, speed, and accuracy.
Comments, qualms, and criticisms are welcomed along with a YAY or NAY as to if all of you would like me to setup up a new wiki.
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"I learn when I succeed, but I learn more when I fail."
Alan Balich
SX/C Wiki - sxcwiki.alanbalich.com
Post Edited (alinious) : 12/10/2007 2:31:39 AM GMT
I wonder sometimes why you jump in to field some of the more simple queries posted in this forum. These sort of queries could be left to
others, they may not provide the best technical answer, but it might encourage others to jump in and make a contribution. I know its
hard to sit on the side when inadequate and sometimes mis-leading information is exchanged, but more often than not a whole group
of people end up learning something.
IMHO
Ron
1) my memory -- what does the bookmark represent/contain?
2) whether I bothered to rename the default bookmark to something 'meaningfull'
3) whether I bothered to bookmark something important at all.
DeSilva has outlined his set of topics, for instance, so for him the next thing is to identify the forum threads that answer each of them. This is where the google search is very handy.
I imagine most 'experts' here have a couple dozen links already. We could compile them, I suppose, but who wants to do that?* Best of all, Graham has done most of that already.
With a bit of effort, deSilva could have a ready link to replace his increasingly common grump 'been said before'. That last isn't really worth posting, is it?
*answer: *a would-be tutorial author desiring fame and fortune. Any literate volunteers? I want nice prose with a sense of play and fun, and top notch quality commentary.
I've read it and guess what, some of it still doesn't make sense. I will be sure to ask in my own seperate thread about how COGNEW works when and if I need that information.
I'm not trying to be a troublemaker or a jerk, but if your here to help others......then help......if you don't want to respond to a COGNEW inquiry, gracefully click out of the thread and go read another.
From what I understand, this chip is what not even a year old? Not everyone is a programming god, some are hardware gods, and guess what, without the proper hardware, programming accounts for zero of the project application. Since most common embedded systems use C, VB, C++, C#, some even java......for what......that last 10 years or more depending on the language. I still don't quite get how things work on this chip......so what I'm supposed to not ask because it been explained 99 times?
How bout the prop 2 thread, someone is crazy enough to sit down and read 675 replies.......um ......not here.......got things to do, customers to handle.
I think you have a great idea by formalizing an FAQ type of infomation bank, or go to area. The way it sounds is that your completely discouraging anyone who is looking for information on getting up and running and saying "hey go look it up". From my understanding that isn't what this forum is about.
In my background in hardware design of embedded systems, almost everything is coded in C or C++.......never even heard of spin until 3 days ago.
Anyway, don't take any of this as personal, but from a noob on the outside looking in.
Look what happened the other day: Someone asked for a multiplication routine: There is this "propeller guts" manual with basic math routines. I found that manual reading old posts. I did not see it in the list of dowloadables. But it should be there. What happened to it ?, I do not know. I just copy-pasted the routine from there
There are half a dozen threads over the prop2. I read the first one when it was some 18 pages, yes I did. The summaries, well I do not remember who did them, are very useful. SOme newer threads repeat part of the info. btw, some people still say it will have 256 kB HUB SRAM, Parallax said it will have 128 kByte. Reading is not bad.
VB as an embedded language ?, well something is rotten, what a poor choice.
Like yourself, I have only had prop for 4 weeks or so. Thanks to the manual and contributers to this forum, I was able to port most of the stuff from PIC and BS2 to Spin and Prop ASM before I even got my hands on the Prop. There were a few surprises with spin, but it was not too painful. Although I am new to Prop, I go back to the BCPL days so it was not too difficult for me. I do not feel that I can make much of a technical contribution to the forum, having had the unit for such a short time, but the forum is a great source of information. People spend a lot of time helping others, in fact this forum is one of the BIG reason for choosing PROP.
Ron
I am happy that the need for structuring information has been acknowledged to such an extent!
However my original purpose was much less ambitious: I just asked for a better system of organizing OBJECTS!
There is the Propeller Hardware, there is SPIN, there is assembly code, there are boards...
But there is also this - how did I call it? - "wealth" of objects. A newbie has no chance - definitely no chance at all! - to find out what he can use (or what he shouldn't). There is the "library" bundled with the Propeller Tool which is well meant but a little bit dusted now and I know people who had not even found the folder Examples/Library. The ObjectExchange is also well stuffed, even categorized, but to be useful to you you have TO READ THROUGH THE CODE OF EACH SINGLE OBJECT.
There are three main topics recurring endlessly
- What serial interface, and how?
- What video driver, and how?
- How to interface an ADC?
One could have been a main topic but is not, funnily...
- Floating Point arithmetic and mathematical algorithms
There is also this nasty incompatibility with the Hydra system wrt PS/2...
It is not always obvious how to change I/O pins.
- Very few know how to use one of the masterpieces of the library: GRAPHICS.
- Martin has prepared the most illustrative BS2 functions. Without explanations they will not make easy sense at all for someone not aware of the BasisStamp features ...
- Mike's FemtoBasic contains terribly useful things
- DeSilva should post more code, that is true...
These are my main concerns.
Post Edited (deSilva) : 12/10/2007 10:30:17 AM GMT
And where there are two or more objects for the same sort of thing, which to use and how to choose between them ? What does each do, how easy are they to integrate, how general purpose are they, how easy are they to change ? All things which as you say can usually only be determined by looking at each individually, and that requires a considerable degree of knowledge and understanding which a newbie will not have.
For TV drivers; exactly what capabilities do they have, what memory footprint ? How to select between NTSC and PAL, interlaced and non-interlaced ? Lack of conditional compilation and no means of configuration through calling parameters often means altering things deep in the driver and people need help in doing that.
Is anything on the Object Exchange not rated with 5 stars ?
Hi Hippy,
Thanks for your thoughts. Do you ever make use of Wikipedia? I do, all the time. It's a rare day when I don't look something up. And more often than not, Wikipedia has either the answer I needed, or a good link to something more in depth. And every once in a while I'll spot something that's missing or incorrect, and make an edit.
Wikipedia has no formal hierarchical structure. Every page in on the same level, and gives information on it's subject, and links to other such pages where they are relevant.
That's what the Propeller Wiki needs to be like. However the problem is that it hasn't yet reached the tipping point that Wikipedia hit a few years ago. The point at which it was likely that a topic you were interested in is covered. So for now the pages that it does contain need pointing to from somewhere on the opening page.
The goal of the Propeller Wiki is a great one. Imagine the utility of a Wikipedia like site covering everything you ever wanted to know about the Propeller. But that vision is going to take a little bit of work from a lot of people.
We're all spread quite thin. We've all got more projects that we're interested in doing than time to do them. And I too have been spending all my spare time on my current project "Defender" rather then anything else. But I'll try and spend a bit more time on the Propeller Wiki to push it forward towards that tipping point.
What would be really useful is if people that have completed projects, be it a software object, a propeller board, a tutorial, a useful document, a game, whatever, were to create a page about it on the Wiki. Maybe just a quick description and a link, or perhaps a copy of the relevant parts of the readme file that comes with the project. Whatever. Don't worry about the structure of the wiki at all - that will come as pages begin to crosslink with each other.
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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK
Hi Alnious,
Of course I'm not offended! I have no particular attachment to Wikispaces, the host where the wiki currently is, I just searched for a public wiki solution at the time, and they were the best of the two that were most obvious. The adverts don't bother me at all, they seem a fair exchange for the provision of a free service.
The value of a wiki is it's content, and that's the stuff that really takes time, not the infrastructure. So whilst you could provide an alternative site, and without the adverts, I'm not sure that gets us any further forward. It's more content that's needed.
However, if you want to put some effort into producing an infrastructure without the adverts, and better layout (the Wikispaces one is far from ideal), then go for it. Sounds like a good project. All the current content of the Propeller Wiki is creative commons, so just copy it as you need. As and when it's got to a stage where it's an improvement on the existing set up, we can change the front page of the existing site to a forwarding message.
One thing to think about is a memorable URL. propeller.wikispaces.com is reasonably memorable. Can you do something as memorable or perhaps better?
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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK
Simple.
You guys are wonderful.
Getting everyone to work together seems improbable.
I've noticed that several of the heavy contributors also do major postings in their own languages in other forums... so the effort is clearly there. And the frustration is understandable.
I'm not worried about the newbies... there is plenty of structured material and there are multiple paths that one can follow, depending upon the level of an individual's expertise and experience. The core material is constantly being improved. The entrances to the Propeller world have been thoughtfully and almost completely implemented. I completely agree with DeSilva on the Object usage issue. It should be possible for a newbie with very little effort to integrate a complete system around standard objects, with almost no programming skills. That day will come and the sooner the better.
In my opinion, the single most useful suggestion that would help everyone was initially put forward by Graham Stabler.
For his own purposes, Graham came up with a diagram of pin usage. The concept can be generalized to Cog usage.
I have noticed that everyone... except me... tends to follow Parallax's recommendations for documentation in objects. I think that we need some elaboration on the documentation standards for objects... a user shouldn't have to look into the code to try to figure out how many cogs an object might need and how often it might need those cogs or how it is using pins or how much memory is being consumed, that out to be in the "Read Me." If this information is put into the "Read Me" in a standardized fashion, simple inspection will answer a lot of important questions. Implementing software to atuomatically summarize all of the Object Info would be a no-brainer.
I also like Graham's approach to threads, but he is one guy and his list naturally reflects his own bias... and there are major topic areas not discussed.
I think some effort should go toward working with Graham to try to elaborate the structure of the good threads index... that would be less work and would be properly centralized around the forum, which is where most of the information is coming from anyway. Good Threads v.1.2?
Let's say that I am interested in looking at all of the ways that two Propellers might communicate and finding all of the contributed code... where do I go? If I ask the question on the forum, I will get whatever is at the top of people's brains. If I use the two different search engines that I have, I will end up missing most of what is there.
Then there is the issue of available Propeller related products... the process of taking other people's creations and integrating them in a new way can be very productive. I personally enjoy this kind of development far more than trying to re-invent the wheel every time I want to get into my car.
1. There is no central list of products and descriptions. Right now this isn't much of a problem, but I get the feeling that down the road it is going to be a real issue.
Now would be a good time to start a list or a good thread.
If done independently, this might be a good project for the Ohio User's group... you guys might be able to generate ad revenue down the road.
2. There is no forum for Propeller related 3d Party products. I recently ordered a bunch of stuff... and I have some comments on some of what I purchased. I know where to post my comments and questions about the Hydra... but I would very much like to comment and discuss some of the other products in a place dedicated to them.
ILMP
Very good points, I visit and contribute to a few major technical websites like National Instruments and some other not so technical, most of my internet time is on forum boards. I do realize that people should use the search feature of said sites, and as I said before, I'm not trying to stir the pot.
But the sometimes the questions becomes? > What am I searching for? I'm sure we have all been there!
And ultimately found nothing in the end. Just the way that the tone is presented is that repeat questions shouldn't be asked. ANY noob isn't going to know something has been discussed 100+ times, thats just the way it is.
I'm all for a structured "go to here" location, hell I'll be needed something like that this week when I get my parts here.....[noparse]:)[/noparse]
As for VB, a lot of people have VB as a GUI interface to the micro's i've seen. Is it smart.....hell no.....but used and done non the less.
So in the end guys, i'm here to learn use and return the favor once I'm up and comfortable..........hope this idea comes together.
Yes, I use Wikipedia reasonable often ( less so now ) and have even contributed. Its biggest problem I find is in finding things ! I only end up there if Google throws up a link. Not having a hierarchical structure ( or at least hierarchical index ) is IMO Wikipedia's biggest failing ( putting aside the politics of Wikipedia and associated nonsense ).
The other problem I have with it is editing, changes and reversion ( cannot escape the politics and nonsense here ). I got heartily sick of correcting incorrectness only to have that reverted back because someone thinks they have a better grasp of truth than what reality is, and I'm talking provable technical facts here not subjective issues. Wikipedia has IMO completely undermined itself.
I have since become of the opinion that Wiki's should primarily be "add only" and "edit ones own contributions only", but then there is a role for editing, and that then re-introduces the problem Wikipedia sufers from, although hopefully it would be much less problematical.
In case anyone thinks I'm against Wiki's in any way, I'm not. I think they are a wonderful idea and the best way to grow a work in progress into something extremely valuable and useful.
The Wiki's going to be great if it doesn't rely on just cardboardguru (though I do share hippy's concerns about multiple authors of an individual page).
As far as the object documentation is concerned, here's what I think:
ObEx has the ability for people to write a review of each object, so why don't we use that to give some high-level info' about the object? This would probably be best done by the object's author, and I'd suggest the following format:
Object filename Version Author contact details (e.g. forum username?) Documentation URL History Description / theory of operation Expected inputs Expected outputs Circuit diagram Cogs used Ports/Pins used RAM usage Program Variable Clock mode Clock freq XIN freq Method details Name Purpose Parameter description(s)** IMPORTANT ** I believe this should be the standard used within the object itself. It can then be cut-and-pasted from documentation view into the review part of ObEx so we wouldn't have to download the object before deciding if it's what we need.
Much of what I'm suggesting appears automatically in documentation view already.
It'd be even better if we could create this as a template within the IDE itself, so it appears every time we start a new project.
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Post Edited (simonl) : 12/11/2007 1:09:25 PM GMT