Building a basic stamp tool for dad...

jblaven

Hey Guys,
·
My dad has a problem I would like to solve using BASIC Stamps and accessories.
·
Story:
·
He has cattle on a farm that is about 7 miles from his house.· He has a brother that lives across the street and also farms.· His brother·probably drives·by the gate 3-4 times a day.· Dad also checks on them once a day.· He would have to enter the gate and drive across the pasture to check the water level.· It would be nice to monitor it from·the street or his·brother's house.· Last week his brother called Dad to let him know that the cattle were acting strange (and that they probably were not getting water).· Dad rushes out to check the water level in the tank and it is all gone.· The problem is there is no way for him to know when the water runs out.
·
How I would like to solve it:

• Use a BS2 at both boxes
• Use a PING to sense the water level
• Use a temp sensor to indicate if the water is frozen
• Use a 912MHz Transceiver to send level to 2nd box at the street (or brother's house if it will reach)
• Use a 912MHz Transceiver to receive water level and temp
• Use LEDs to display "green" or "red" to·indicate an unacceptable water level or if frozen

Things to overcome:

• No external power source at the location of the PING sensor.
• No external power source at the street for the 2nd "box"

Question:

• Is solar the best choice for a "turn on and forget" system?
• ...if so, should it charge a large battery or a capacitor?
• How much power will these components pull?

Thanks for any direction you can give.

Joe

Kevin Wood

You should probably start with Tracy Allen's website:

www.emesystems.com

He builds BasicStamp-based environmental monitoring systems, and he's active on these forums. There is a lot of info there that you can use to develop your ideas.

Also look at the "What's a Microcontroller" and "Applied Sensors" texts that you can download from the parallax website.

As for radio communications, take a look at something like the Xbee modules. They are designed for building sensor networks, and will give you a lot of flexibility.

jblaven

Thanks Kevin,

I have a Bobot as well as the "What's a Microcontroller" package.· I do need to check out the Xbee stuff.

Thanks,

Joe

Franklin

I would go solar with a battery and I would use a float on a line connected to a micro switch for the low water indicator. It all looks do-able. You don't say how far the tank is from the road but xbee high power units should work over moderate distances. Good luck and have fun.

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- Stephen

D Faust

To think out loud: wouldn't you need a pretty rugged system to handle a water tank for cattle?· It seems to me that the water might splash and hit the ping (thus frying it) or they might rip the float out of the tank.· I think that you would need the tank to feed to a tube (that is concealed) and have the measuring device there.· Hope this helps.
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Device here.
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EDIT: I couldn't change the background color but I think yuo can read it now.

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--DFaust

Post Edited (D Faust) : 11/20/2007 8:19:25 PM GMT

steve_b

Interesting font DFaust! (highlight it all to get the text)

A float wouldn't work so well in the winter. And getting heaters would put a crunch on a power budget.
A ping might echo around in a metal tank.
A conductive strip running down the side of the tank might work. Also, a rod with water proofed temp sensors at different heights would work as well (am putting together one of these to find the 'inversion layer' in a frozen lake -- to know what level to put the bait at for ice-fishing!).
An IR range detector might work....unsure!

If the tank is visible from the road you might just put a flashing light on it.

Solar with a battery is good! Build a battery box with some insulation for winter....although you don't want it to heat up too much in the summer either!

You could put a receiver unit in the truck (if he's driving by all the time) or one in the house (range dependant) and that saves on those power sources.

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<FONT>Steve



What's the best thing to do in a lightning storm? "take a one iron out the bag and hold it straight up above your head, even God cant hit a one iron!"
Lee Travino after the second time being hit by lightning!

D Faust

Whoops, the font is really just white (I have the ruby seting on for forum layout, I think I'll change it so you guys can see what I write.

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--DFaust

Dgswaner

you mentioned,

# Use a 912MHz Transceiver to send level to 2nd box at the street (or brother's house if it will reach)
# Use a 912MHz Transceiver to receive water level and temp

I'm not sure if your saying you need 2 transceivers, one for each. but you only need one transmitter and one receiver. this should be cheaper than a tranciever on each end.

The Stamp can "sleep" for a specified time where it will go into a low power mode. where you know that the tank isn't going to instantly drain. I would have it check the level then sleep for 5 minutes or what ever time you feel best.

you should be able build the transmitting side of it, measure the power consumption over a giver period, then decide on the battery size? big enough for at least over night, plus cloudy days. then size a battery accordingly.

just brain storming here... lets say the tank went dry at 3:00 a.m. even if you dad did know it was empty would he fill it before morning? if not does it need to test the water levels at night? not running at night would save 8 +/- hours of usage, epically if no one would worry about it until morning, but then again those farmers do work early!

from what I understand your uncle lives across the street from the proposed receiver location. if so how about instead of using LED's for indicating an issue. provided they have internet, you could use a PINK. this way your dad or anyone for that matter could log on to it and see the exact level. could see the exact temperature, and force a water level check.

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A complex design is the sign of an inferior designer. - Jamie Hyneman, Myth Buster

stephenwagner

Here is a neat trick to construct a water height gauge.

Once you have the hardware, you can fine tune the thresholds with software.

From Nuts & Volts:

http://www.parallax.com/Portals/0/Downloads/docs/cols/nv/vol1/col/nv27.pdf

This will not work when frozen.



SJW

GICU812

I would go low tech for such a rugged use,

Just use two wires at the minimum water level, when the water is over them, they will short and close the circuit, but when they are out of the water, the circuit will be open.

And seeing as you know the water level wont drop suddenly, I would only have it poll once every couple of hours.·Run the wires to a sealed underground box with your battery,·then run 2 wires and the antenna wire·out and up to a pole with a solar pannel and antenna. All your electronics are protected not only from cattle, but from the cold.

You could even run a ground wire and several sense wires, so you could have like 4 diffrent level sensors, which would also provide redundancy so one failed wire wouldnt trigger an alarm, or·worse not trigger a needed alarm.

stephenwagner

Parallax has also published documents on·how to straighten a log curve from a thermistor using a·stamp 1
and how to operate a stamp 1·from a supper cap. and a solar cell.

Read appliction No. 7 and 17 from the below Parallax document.

http://www.parallax.com/Portals/0/Downloads/appnt/stamps/bs1Appnotes.pdf

I hope this helps

SJW

Brian218

I'm not sure if these ideas·would work for your situation with the power requirement and your local winter weather, but You might also think about using an air pump, or other mechanical device, to agitate the water whenever the temp falls below·32F/0C. I'm thinking of something similar to an aquarium air pump with a perforated hose mounted under water at·the tank's bottom. The·bubbling should prevent the water from freezing.

If you have a water pump with a hose that can·reach from·a near by water source to the·cattles' drinking trough, you could also interface it with the controller so it would automatically fill the trough, when ever it falls below a certain level.

Any heavy duty lead acid batteries charged·with a solar charger should handle all your power requirements.

Just a few ideas
BT

jblaven

I found this solar cell at the Edmunds site...· I didn't find a cell that matched the part numbers given in Parallax article.· Any thoughts?

http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3039813

Thanks,

Joe

cutsrock

I used a game feeder battery and solar panel to power a remote video camera and transmitter. I got the units a Cabela's. Here is a link.

http://www.cabelas.com/hprod-1/0027632.shtml

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EPIC FAILURE -·When everyday run-of-the-mill failure just isn't good enough.

Brian218

It looks workable with that solar cell if you choose the right battery.

Even though it has multiple voltage outputs, it states it will charge 9v and AA batteries; no mention is made of others it could charge (rechargeable batteries aren't really my forte, so I'm not sure if it is practical to charge other batteries with it)

If you haven't already done so, do an internet search on battery charger circuit schematics and then choose a battery with recharging characteristics that the solar cell will support.

Here's a link for a fairly simple solar powered NiCad charger...I don't know if this would be practical to charge the cells while·they're in the controller circuit.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/solar1g.htm

sam_sam_sam

Joe

Here a very nice solar panel Harbor Freight .com·· http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41144

This about 200 milamp output

If you have a Harbor Freight Store where you live they go on sale for $39.00

I have·two of the solar panels and work very well you need two panels for this two work

I have use it to charge my cell phone like you would in the car



Brian218

·http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/solar1g.htm

Thank You for your post and this web link

This will help me use·this·solar panel for a project that i have in mind


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··Thanks for any··that you may have and all of your time finding them

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Sam

Post Edited (sam_sam_sam) : 11/24/2007 1:29:45 PM GMT

jblaven

Thanks for all the ideas on the solar panels.·

Now I am getting ready to pull the trigger on the XBee RF Modules...· I am looking at the XBee Series 2 since I can·send·the data from an "End Device" to a "Router" and then to the "Coordinator".· As I understand it, this is how you send the data from a remote end device to the coordinator if the end device is "out of range" of the coordinator.· The router is the go between.· Do I understand this right?

See page 17 of this PDF...
http://www.maxstream.net/products/xbee-series-2/product-manual_XBee_Series2_OEM_RF-Modules_ZigBee.pdf

Lastly, is a BS2 required or will a BS1 work with these XBee modules?· I saw that the Parallax 900MHz units require the BS2.·

Thanks,

Joe

Martin Hebel

The XBee has configurable baud rates and if the top speed of the BS1 is too slow, you can reduce the baud rate of the XBee to match.

You'll also need a board through which you can change the firmware and setting on the XBee's for their functions and baud rates. DigiKey sells the USB interface boards, linked from my page:

http://www.selmaware.com/appbee

-Martin

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SelmaWare Solutions - StampPlot GUI for controllers, XBee and Propeller Application Boards

Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Electronic Systems Technologies

jblaven

Martin Hebel said...
The XBee has configurable baud rates and if the top speed of the BS1 is too slow, you can reduce the baud rate of the XBee to match.

You'll also need a board through which you can change the firmware and setting on the XBee's for their functions and baud rates. DigiKey sells the USB interface boards, linked from my page:

http://www.selmaware.com/appbee

-Martin

Thanks Martin,

Does·the board from Digikey serve the same function as what you get in the XBee development kit package?

Joe

Martin Hebel

Yup, same board I believe. There two styles, one with I/O and one without.

-Martin

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SelmaWare Solutions - StampPlot GUI for controllers, XBee and Propeller Application Boards

Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Electronic Systems Technologies

skylight

Agree with the Aerator block/air pump idea although another easier way is to leave a plastic football (sorry, soccer ball ) in the tank this will leave a big unfrozen patch around it, works every winter with my pond.

Brian218

Here's something to think about...

You might want to wait on buying the solar cells until after you've got everything built and working. This way you will know what you need for the power circuitry.
The·info in italics, at the bottom, is from Parallax's Basic stamp information page.

The BS2 consumes 3 mA when running, and only 50 micro amps in sleep mode. Assuming the pull-up/down resistors and supporting circuit don't consume much power, you might find the battery can go a long time w/o being recharged. You can probably buy a battery and charger for a cheaper price than the solar cells alone. The only drawback is you will have to recharge it every now and then; you can always add the solar calls later...

Best of luck with your project.
BT

Also, I have a few links for a surplus electronics vendor that carries ·discounted electronics components, batteries, chargers, and even solar cells)
I'm not sure if posting them would be considered spam or not.
I'll post it if the mods say it's ok. If not, send me a PM...

At 5 volts DC the BASIC Stamp 1 module consumes 1mA in running mode and 2µA in sleep mode, not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2-IC consumes 3mA in running mode and 50µA in sleep mode, not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2E-IC consumes 25mA in running mode and 200µA in sleep mode, not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2SX-IC consumes 60mA in running mode and 500µA in sleep mode, not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2P24-IC consumes 40mA in running mode and 350µA in sleep mode not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2P40-IC consumes 40mA in running mode and 350µA in sleep mode not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2PE-IC consumes 15mA in running mode and 150µA in sleep mode, not including any circuitry on the I/O pins. The BS2PX24-IC consumes 55mA in running mode and 450µA in sleep mode, not including any circuitry on the I/O pins.

Post Edited (Brian218) : 11/25/2007 1:02:47 PM GMT

bobledoux

As GICU812 mentioned, you have a very harsh environment requiring long term monitoring. Build the most simple and reliable system you can develop.

Start by building a system that reports using lights. A flash per second means the system is functioning and water height and temperature are fine. A fast flash rate, or no flash indicates a problem with temperature or water level or power supply.

The temperature sensor only has to indicate freezing so it doesn't have to be calibrated for other temperatures. A capacitor discharge rate routine could be used to measure the resistance of a thermister. Add a pot so it can be recalibrated as needed.

Set a simple on/off water level gauge that measures "enough" or "getting to low".

Make the thing work with a battery. Test it for a week or two, especially in winter cold. Work out the bugs. Then add solar power. Then think about sensor upgrades.

Don't try to get fancy with a system that has to survive in a pasture or on grazing land. Make it simple, make it tough.

randyaz

why not fully automate it and have a solenoid valve on the water line. BS2 monitors the water level high/low levels in the tank to turn the water on and off. You would still have to work out the freezing problem...

jblaven

AD592 Temperature Probe

http://www.parallax.com/Store/Sensors/TemperatureHumidity/tabid/174/CategoryID/49/List/0/Level/a/ProductID/86/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName%2cProductName

Anyone know if this is waterproof?

Thanks,

Joe