SMT Assembly Services
James Long
Posts: 1,181
I had talked to a few members of the forum in the past about starting a SMT assembly service company.
This has progressed to the point of buying the equipment. My brother and I have decided to push on and buy the equipment needed to assemble low volume board amounts.
We have setup a website (but it is not complete yet.)
We are wondering if any members of this forum would be interested in having their SMT parts mounted on their boards.
Our prices will be pretty cheap for this service, and this discussion has been taken up on Spark Funs forums.
If you are interested, could you drop us a note on this thread.
We hope our service will be accepted well...and will start having a number of customers.
If you are real interested I can provide a few people the address of the website.
We are not publicly advertising the site, because if it's unfinished nature.
Thanks for your interest.
James L
Post Edited (James Long) : 11/5/2007 2:17:37 AM GMT
This has progressed to the point of buying the equipment. My brother and I have decided to push on and buy the equipment needed to assemble low volume board amounts.
We have setup a website (but it is not complete yet.)
We are wondering if any members of this forum would be interested in having their SMT parts mounted on their boards.
Our prices will be pretty cheap for this service, and this discussion has been taken up on Spark Funs forums.
If you are interested, could you drop us a note on this thread.
We hope our service will be accepted well...and will start having a number of customers.
If you are real interested I can provide a few people the address of the website.
We are not publicly advertising the site, because if it's unfinished nature.
Thanks for your interest.
James L
Post Edited (James Long) : 11/5/2007 2:17:37 AM GMT
Comments
...but let's take something I've finished - the motors for my vertical blinds -- they're big.· I look at an SX-Key and just sigh.· The blind's electronics fits in a RadioShack box #1805.·Supposin' I wanted to make a dozen of 'em.· or a hundred.· Yes indeed I would re-design for SMT and use·other than the DIP SX-28 chip.·· (Oh, Boy ! - I could use the SX-48 which isn't made in DIP).· and I would have it done professionally.· <-- that's you people.· I could switch to a worm-drive instead of the threaded rod.· Yes, you open up more possibilities for me.
...but this is a hobbyist's site - from beginner to quite advanced.· I entered Parallax from good ol' MS-DOS through the assembly programming door - thrilled that I could now make objects, rather than just·other files and papers that came out of a printer.··Therefore all of my·physical experience is here: five years with the SX-chips.· In order to take you up on your "make-my-board" / "do-my-SMT-soldering" offer,·I would need help making appropriate schematics.· ? Do L293 chips come in SMT also ? - how about Hex-inverters ?· Yes, I could look up·on the data sheets but am not inclined to do that yet - because the board design is such a hurdle...
... ? just how do I route all of those little tiny wires ? - Could you help us hobbyists with that hurdle ?
tommy
Post Edited (tommy) : 11/5/2007 12:33:34 AM GMT
http://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?t=7271
Might as well keep it in one spot and keep it current...
kenjj
Like Ken JJ stated it would be better to keep all the discussions in one place.
But as a quick answer......The board design would be an extra service.......as the main focus is just assembly. But we will offer that service as well.
Your case is a prime example for why we are starting this service. There are people who are just not interested in mounting SMT parts. We will try to provide the service in a price range that is suitable for people who are interested in using SMT and not doing it themselves.
Just as a side note, most chips have a SMT counter part, if not the same chip in SMT. Most of the board size is saved with passives (capacitors, resistors, etc.)
James L
Post Edited (James Long) : 11/5/2007 2:23:06 AM GMT
I would like for everyone who is interested to register as a user and play around in the protected area. Don't worry .....if you want to make a pretend order....that is ok for now. I'll kill all the orders before our business comes online for production.
If you have any questions...let me know.
I know there are some things missing, Like a page to tell the user what the order is going to cost before submitting it. I'm working on that part.
I'm also working on the registration page layout (and some of the fuctions.....but it does work) as well.......but you'll have to bear with me.......there is only so much time in the day.
James L
http://www.lilbro.mosquito.net.nz/index.html
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
I hope I can repay some of the help you have provided me in the past. I like the fact that you would (and could) use the service.
I'm hoping to have a large amount of people who want to build projects in low volume to sell for a small business....or just to give to friends.
I have been working to this end for a long time (almost all year) so I hope to get a large crowd of users.
James L
I thought of offering to "hand solder" SMT parts for something like $0.30 per lead. It would be expensive, but there would be no setup or per board charges either. But I don't know if there would be enough hobbiest that would be willing to pay that much...
I often get boards from ExpressPCB and don't have any gerber files. What would you require to be able to populate them ?
Bean
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.iElectronicDesigns.com
·
If your boards have fiducial marks, we can program the placement manually.· If it doesn't we could still program the placement manually, but wouldn't be as accurate in placement. If you do not use any BGA type chips it would probably be fine.
The largest challenge with a ExpressPCB user will be the polarity of their chips. (Cap's, diodes, etc.) We will need to make sure we understand which side is positive.
Hope this gives you another option for your assembly,
James L
Thanks. I'm sure there are alot of others that use ExpressPCB.
I've been told that you can purchase Gerber files from them for $60 after you have your board made. (I know of one person that did buy them, so it's not a rumor). That might be an option for you if they have alot of componets.
Would the placement location programming be included in the setup fee ? Or would there be an additional fee for doing that ?
If I would make a DXF of the ExpressPCB board what layers would you need to have to avoid having to setup manually ?
Bean
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.iElectronicDesigns.com
·
There will always be a manual setup. Because the machine doesn't know where the specific parts required for the board are located. It changes each time the machine is loaded with new parts, unless the machine has run that particular board before. Then the machine will tell the operator where to put each specific part reel, tray or tube. So the part placement is included with the setup fee.
There will not be an additional fee for doing manual programming. Some people would say that is not fair, but it's a freebie for the ones using services like ExpressPCB. But the people who are griping also have to remember, even if they supply a pik file, it will have to be checked....and that will take almost·the same amount of time. (But it will be very accurate, if correct)
A·Job with a large number of components will offset the setup time. The more components ......the more the price cost anyway. So there is no need to charge extra for the setup.
We·wouldn't suggest buying the gerber files for that price. Unless you are placing BGA parts, then the accuracy is needed to insure the chips are placed as accurate as possible. The only other time you may need the gerbers, is if you have solder paste stenciled. But you can also use a DXF for the stencil layout.
The problem with buying the gerbers, is if your layout changes any, the previous gerbers are really no good.
We·would like to see some of the people using services like ExpressPCB change over to Eagle, or some of the other softwares. It really opens up a lot of different options for PCB manufacturing. But·we are·not going to push anyone, people have to be confortable with what they are using.
James L
·
I have changed the wording to reflect this. I'm sure there were some people confused about the log in proceedure.
This makes remembering your username very easy. But if you want to receive email from us.....you need to insure it is correct.
We are still working on the pages.....but some of the items left to be ironed out may not be working when we go online in January.
Thanks for everyone stopping by, I hope people will do more sample orders to check to see if there are any problems with the site so far. I have done some checking, but it is easy to miss something when you are working on so many things at once.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
http://pminmo.com/ss3977/ss3977.htm
Hobby boards are great for self used projects, but if you want to sell those to others, the board really needs to be stepped up a notch to a more professional look.
We are trying to provide services to the hobby guys out in the cyberspace that want to build those for other hobbyist. Will the cost of the boards be higher?......most definitely, but people buy based on appearance as much as they do function.
We are also working on a referral system for people to refer others to the site. If the·referred customer orders, the referring person·receives a monetary return or a discount on their next order.
We will need a large number of new customers next year.....so we need some way to get the word out.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
I have two surface mount pick and place machines (as well as thru hole stuffers), so I'm somewhat experienced at what you're attempting. I'm really curious how you intend to handle short runs with a multiplicity of short strips of resistors and capacitors; we have found this to be a nightmare. Traditional reel handlers require lead-in tape or simply wasting 50 to 100 components just to get the transparent covers onto the take-up. And that does not mix well when all you needed was one or a few resistors of a particular value on each of 5 boards.
We made an indexing table that could hold 20 or so short strips, but then the cover needed to be pre-removed. That causes the small 0402 components to pop out of their holes, and fly all over when the indexer moves rapidly. It turns out (our experience at least) that for short runs when component reels are not practical, it is faster to hand place the components with tweezers.
I'm curious how you will deal with this, and you might try things before you venture too far..... it might cost you a small fortune!
Just fome friendly advice.
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
We came up with a custom solution for the cut tape problem. It just took some ingenuity on our part. Unfortunately I can't share the information, because I was not the sole person responsible for the fix.
But I do thank you for the help. We would be in trouble if we had not thought of this before.
EDIT: I thought I would throw this in:· I did not say there wouldn't be work involved with small runs. We are charging for a service, and our part requires work. Some of the work is very redundant, tedious, and just plain boring. That is one reason our pricing is scaled for more boards to be cheaper (per board). We just feel there is a large number of people wanting to make items for hobby purposes (for sale or personal use) that need a good assembly service that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. We will make a reasonable profit, but probably won't get rich.
For all the people wondering, that is the reason for the board minimums, most people have no clue to the amount of work to setup and run 5 boards. There is a good amount of labor involved.
thanks for the advice,
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
Post Edited (James Long) : 2/2/2008 5:07:34 AM GMT
Glad to see you are getting this up and running. I spent an enormous amount of time getting an in house sytem together, but still want to get away from all manual labor.
Without rereading both sites to look for the info, could you please post any Eagle file or a dummy Eagle file showing the correct markings required for your needs.
Also, can you use the stencils like the ones I generate on mylar, or do you have some specific version? My current project is 6 different boards, and I can supply the stencil if you are a using similar system that will stretch the mylar.
Thanks
Post Edited (TChapman) : 12/1/2007 4:46:07 AM GMT
I will mark up an Eagle file and post it here and on the site.....it may be a while before I get it done.....we are currently jumping through the hoops around here.
As for a stencil, we usually order from Pololu to use plastic stencils that are laser cut. We devised a system to hold the stencil for solder pasting. So if you need·to have the board pasted with a stencil we have the means to use the ones you generate.
A stencil is not required as we use a solder paste dispenser on the pick and place itself. We paid $6000 extra to have a very accurate system.
We enjoy hearing about people who would use the service, it tells us we are not going in the wrong direction.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
Regarding short runs for prototypes, when there are no spools but only cut tape at say 100 per cut, are you able to place parts manually, or can the machine hold a short piece of tape, typically 8 inches long?
We have come up with a solution to let the machine place all the parts. We will only place parts by hand if we can not use our solution. We have not (to this point) had a situation that required hand placement of any parts.
This is also dependent of the new machinery. We have had time to study the new equipment, but are still in the process of receiving it.
Our solution should work just as well (actually better) on the new equipment as it does on our old machinery.
So as a short answer, a cut tape of 100 parts will be machine placed. We actually have machine placed a cut tape of 5 parts.
Hope this helps,
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
Can you handle IC in tubes ?
Bean
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.iElectronicDesigns.com
·
We will have the ability to handle reel (cut tape), tube, or waffle tray packaged parts.
All we ask, if a component is moisture sensitive it remain sealed in the moisture preventative packaging.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
I just noticed something you said.....yes I reread the thread sometimes to insure I didn't miss something, like I did in your post.
You say you have 6 different boards. Are you planning to run one of each?....or multiples of each?
We wouldn't be able to accomodate one of each, our process is aimed at 5 boards of the same flavor.
I'm willing to discuss the possibility, but would want to continue the discussion off group to retain your design integrity. Feel free to email me with the email button to the left (under my name).
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
We have had some issues with our lending.....it plagued us for some time.......just the price of having a business.
We believe we have it all worked out.....so things are now moving forward again.
Also, we have added the Paypal payment option. If you desire to pay with a credit card or with your paypal account the option will be there.
We are not requiring a paypal account to pay.
We will also accept check and money orders, although that will delay your items being shipped out.
At some point next year, we will offer customer accounts to people who meet the requirements. There will be order requirements to receive a revolving· account. These accounts will be billed monthly.....and will not require the customer to pay at the time of shipment.
The website does not reflect all the work we have been working on lately.
We will be accepting larger run of boards (over 100) but we will price these orders differently than smaller runs. They will be quoted at conception, based on the job criteria. We feel larger runs of boards should receive some breaks depending on the assembly requirements. Larger runs should be cheaper (per board) than orders under 100.
But if you think ordering 102 boards will give you a large break......we don't think that would really suffice for much of a break.
200-300 boards on the other hand will get a healthy break from the standard pricing.
We will try to keep everyone apprised on current events.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
This sounds like a service I would be interested in as one of my main design requirements for my current project is it has to be as small as possible, and this includes OEM stamps on a very small board, along with other components. I'd be ordering in the region of 10 - 20 per order/batch. But... If I placed an order, then 2 weeks later ordered more of the same, how much less work is involved? Do you have to setup from scratch again completely?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss.
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
Stephen Hawking
We do not, as a standard service, provide the bare board. That would entail more than just assembly. You can provide the bare board, or we can contract to provide the board with the assembly service.
Our solder paste is totally RoHS compliant. We figured we would get customers in Europe and other places that require RoHS ability. Like stated before, we can contract to provide a bare board (RoHS compliant) but this would be more than just an assembly job.
The first order is really where most of the work is involved. We have to teach the placement machine (either manually or with a placement file) where all the components are located on the board. We must also make sure the teaching is accurate. After that, most of the work is just putting the required board and parts into their places (board in it's locations, and parts in their respective feeder).
The second order we would just use the placement file and do it all again. This is assuming the board design doesn't change.
Let us know your thoughts,
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
Post Edited (James Long) : 12/6/2007 6:26:12 PM GMT
There has been some relaxing on some of our requirements. We have decided to not require fiducials, but we do recommend them. Because we will have customers that would have difficulty putting fiducials on their boards, the requirement was going to cause problems.
We have also updated the FAQ about multiple design jobs(different board designs on one panel). If your panel contains all the different boards (within our size requirements) you may submit a multiple·design job. Multiple design jobs must be preapproved before job initiation.
We have updated the Status page about the Status definitions which have changed a little.
We are still doing the "test the website" for a while longer. We have not had many people get on and play.
We really want people to test the site out and see what they think. Don't worry......we are not holding people to their fux orders.
We will update the news page to reflect the webtest status.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
I know a few people have been waiting on this information to decide if they will use the service.
These are the capabilities of the new pick and place:
Part abilities :· 0201- 35mm· (15 mil pitch minimum) 0201 components will be required to be on a full reel. Cut tape will not be accepted for 0201's.
Board Size·· ·: 2x2 -·8 7/8 x 11 inches· (this will change very shortly to·10 x 13.5 inches·for maximum size)
Carriers······ : Tape, tube, tray (cut tape if not 0201)
We can place just about any part which meets these requirements, but will not charge for BGA type chip placement (board minimum still applies).
We will not have the equipment required to x-ray for BGA parts. We will mount them, but we can not guarantee their placement.
This information will be update on the website as soon as possible. We understand the FAQ page is a beast, and have someone working to organize it to a better format.
We have finally gotten over the hurdle with the machinery manufacturer and financing.
We will start accepting orders in about 5 weeks. This will give you some time to get your projects to the point of ordering.
We will probably run a promotion for the first few weeks to get customers orders. Stay Tuned to the New page of the site for further information about the promotion.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
I know you guys are tired of reading our updates and "just want you to open!"
So here it is:
Feb. 22, 2008 will be the day we will start taking orders. This is actually about 2 weeks before the new pick and place is scheduled to arrive. This will give you time to get your items to us, and line up for the start of production.·I will be out of town from the 18-21 that week for training on the new machine.
There have been some updates on the website, but we haven't gotten all the bugs worked out of the site. There is some information about this on our "News" page.
The FAQ has been updated with regards to our placement capabilities (board sizes too), and a few other items. We know it is a beast of a page, and will be reorganized when time allows.
We have had a few people ask for pricing information, so we have posted a pricing worksheet (Excel....21kb) on the site click here.·(We recommend you save it to your hard drive for use.)
The worksheet takes into consideration everything but promotional prices, items that are mounted for free (BGA, etc), and stencils. It even considers if you have a multi-board job you want run.
If you can wait a little longer to order, we will have some kind of "Grand Opening" promotional deal. We are confident, it will be a pretty good deal to get new customers to send us their items for assembly.
We hope everyone is excited about the new service, and will at least consider using us for assembly.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
· For my HC-OSD product http://www.hittconsulting.com/products/hcosd·I already have a stencil.
· Would it make a difference in the price if you used it for a qty of 50 - 100 single up boards ?
Bean
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.iElectronicDesigns.com
·