PCB CNC milling machine
John Hansford
Posts: 28
Hi All,
I'm new here and am about to begin learning to use micro-controllers.
I have been making small desktop cnc routers for a few years now
and will make a few available very soon. They are made from
MDF. The difference in these "cheap machines" is they use very
high quality parts/components.
Milling a circuit board is a tough task to take on. A machine needs to
be very rigid and tight. The choice of spindles and cutters will
make all the difference. The machines I make have a cutting
area of 8 x 6 x 1.5".
It's a machine that was designed for milling circuit boards.
It comes in an easily assembled kit form. It takes no more
than a few common hand tools to put together. They are
just a basic mechanical machine only. It needs light sanding
and painting. It does not include motors, drivers, software or
spindles.
The price of these machines is $375.
I'll wait to see if there's any interest before going on more
about them.
Thanks!
John Hansford
fireballcnc.com
I'm new here and am about to begin learning to use micro-controllers.
I have been making small desktop cnc routers for a few years now
and will make a few available very soon. They are made from
MDF. The difference in these "cheap machines" is they use very
high quality parts/components.
Milling a circuit board is a tough task to take on. A machine needs to
be very rigid and tight. The choice of spindles and cutters will
make all the difference. The machines I make have a cutting
area of 8 x 6 x 1.5".
It's a machine that was designed for milling circuit boards.
It comes in an easily assembled kit form. It takes no more
than a few common hand tools to put together. They are
just a basic mechanical machine only. It needs light sanding
and painting. It does not include motors, drivers, software or
spindles.
The price of these machines is $375.
I'll wait to see if there's any interest before going on more
about them.
Thanks!
John Hansford
fireballcnc.com
Comments
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www.fireballcnc.com.
I'm rearranging pictures right now and I'll have a link
to them in a few minutes.
http://www.fireballcnc.com/milling/machine/F90/
This is the new version with parts basically "standardized".
A bit dull looking in it's MDF form, but they make a very
fancy machine with a little painting.
John
Can you offer a "Ready-To-Run" package that DOES include the motors, drivers, power supply, software, spindles, assorted bits etc.
I realize the cost will likely be a couple times the unfinished model.
Bean.
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My goal is to live forever...Or die trying.
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·
within a private Yahoo group.
I've stayed out of the "full package" end because of the infinite variables involved.
I have many recommendations and our support group now has several
people who help advise.
Being as the machines need to be finished and assembled, it's actually cheaper
for the owner to collect the parts and build them in as he/she goes.
We have a recommended 3 axis controller called "Halo"...$149.
Motors from kelinginc.com generally will run about $35. ea.
Power supplies are unregulated easy to build 3 component arrangements...around $50.
With software...the sky's the limit. There are free things that can be made to work
very well, but it's truly a case of you get what you pay for...[noparse];)[/noparse]
One of our guys is trying out a very high quality spindle...know as a "Wolfgang spindle".
He'll know something about that within a few weeks.
It's really very easy to gather the parts and have a great running machine within
a week or 2, depending on time available.
I'm always available for any questions myself...
My email is on the fireballcnc.com site.
Those interested int the Yahoo group can write me for the address.
Thanks for your questions!
John
Milling a circuit board has got to be one of the toughest things to
try with a cnc machine. I don't do it myself. Others do with great
success. The machine I make will easily position for 8-10 mil
traces. The key thing is the spindle...NO dremel will do it....
and correct cutting bits. Along with the right feed-rate.
LOTS of trial & error...
I imagine it to be a Royal PITA to mill a circuit board.
But these machines are good for much, much more than that.
I use them to make themselves. I don't "cheat" by using a
fancy $$$$ "real" cnc machine. They have to be good enough
for light commercial work. And they are.
MDF is something I used to despise. I did some research and was
pretty impressed. It's even taken very seriously by many "fine"
furniture makers. When sealed and painted it's highly
moisture resistant. The machines aren't intended for metal
work, but there are many many thing in the robotics area that
could be made very precisely with high grade plastics.
Control panels...2.5D designs...custom electronics
assemblies....1000's of things.
If anyone ever has any questions...I'll always give a straight
answer. I'm not out for mass sales...but fewer high quality,
good running machines that I can point to!
Thanks for your patience!
I really am here to begin gathering my wits on
micro-controllers and the A-Mazing things they're now capable of...[noparse]:)[/noparse]
John
I added a few pictures of a machine painted. It took about a day of
Not-very-careful painting to get to this point. I still have to get the
table assembly in place...but you can get an idea.
http://www.fireballcnc.com/milling/machine/F90/
I'm hoping to eventually make these into "stand-alone" machines. They'd
make use of a micro-controller and read a gcode file from an SD card or maybe
a USB stick. The space underneath the machine is for all electronics and
power supply.
John
Wow - your machince does look good, especially when painted.·
Why do you say you can't use a dremel for PCB routing?· I thought I had seen a one or two other machines on the net that were routing PCBs. Maybe they just said they could but the quality is poor.· You appear to have experience designing, building, and opertaing the machinces.
Do you jave picture examples of what others are doing with your machine (what they are making, how they painted it, etc)?
I would love to own a CNC machine someday, but my flat in Hong Kong only has so much room.· Perhaps when I move back to the states.
It is great that you are here to learn more about electronics and microcontrollers.· There are other posts on these forums about creating a CNC controller or a stepper controller.· Some have done it with Basic Stamp and I think I saw one or two who were doing it with the Propeller.· Let us know if you have any questions.
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Timothy D. Swieter
tdswieter.com
One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode
Thanks very much for your kind remarks!
I think I've built around 40 machines so far.
I mention the Dremel as being limited to how fine a trace may be expected.
For milling in a tough material like copper coated fiberglass....and without
actually having tried it myself....I'd guess that somewhere around
.030 would be easy enough.
To do very fine traces a high quality spindle like the Paul Jones spindle or
the Wolfgang spindle would be a much better choice.
see here....
I've added a few pictures here....
http://www.fireballcnc.com/milling/machine/
(The T90 is just a BIG fireball machine to make smaller machines)
(the tiny photo-image of the girl was cut with a Dremel and a homemade
bit. The stepover in the image is .003.)
Dremels actually work Very well, and the standard tool holder for these
machines is for a Dremel Model 300....see here....
http://www.coolcnc.com/
click on the pictures for larger more detailed views....
The thing the Dremel has against it is the bearings and their
layout allows for a "sloppy" amount of "runout". It'll vary from
tool to tool. I've heard it's easily fix-able with some shimming
inside the tool. So, A very high quality cutting bit would be
best used with a Dremel for best results. With determination
and practice....some Excellent results on circuit boards
could be had.
Still it's just better to get a good spindle for doing circuit boards
reliably.
I also use a Foredom handpiece spindle for making use of 1/4"
router bits for doing harder work.
The machines allow for infinite adjusting to get things flat and
parallel. Easy to do with just a screwdriver and a 7/16 wrench.
The use of common tools and common sized nuts and bolts is
purposely designed in to make the machines easily modded
by their owners. They'll bolt together in less than an hour.
These machines are only 15" x 16"(without the motors attached).
The person with limited space was in mind while designing them
as I myself have limited space...[noparse];)[/noparse]
A CNC machine has got to be one of the greatest things to have
around. Especially for the kinds of things you guys do here. All
kinds of small enclosures, levers, gears, switch holding assemblies,
panels, stand-off assemblies, etc, etc, etc....can easily be very
precisely made. Any small "R & D lab" needs a small rapid
prototyping machine on hand.
It won't be too much longer before these machines will have the
"stand-alone" capability I mentioned. They can easily be retro-fitted
to most any kind of controller. I want that to make having a row
of small cheap "single-purpose" machines all running and doing
"semi-continuous" production of specific parts....no need to
go through time-consuming tool changes and re-calibration.
The micro-controller will be a key part of making that happen, I
do believe...(and someone is working on that right now [noparse]:)[/noparse])
A CNC machine isn't really hard to make. I realize I have what may
look like a ridiculous price for something actually built from a $12 shelf
from Home Depot, but these machines use Very high quality parts
that add up quickly. The idea being to make the mechanical side of
getting a CNC machine setup as simple and reliable as is possible for
the owner. In Most cases though, it'll work perfectly without the
very expensive parts. I have a $299 version that's basically the
same machine but it uses a standard 3/8-12 acme precision leadscrew
and comes without couplings.
As you can tell, I love to talk about CNC machines and if you have ANY
questions you can Always ask...Any time. I work here in my shop 7
days a week making machines. I stay small and very "low-key" about
them so I can give them the attention and quality that is needed to
get someone up and running as easy as is possible.
Thanks for your questions Timothy!
John
BTW...great site you have!...very interesting and cool stuff!!!
ebay will make the Fireball F90 CNC machine look like...
http://www.fireballcnc.com/milling/machine/F90_Done/
John
Yes, I can tell you like to talk about CNC machines.· It is a popular topic around the DIY communities and you certainly know your stuff!· I love hearing of succes stories when a project is completed or a business is created out of a passion.· Thanks for the links to you tube, great stuff.· Wolfgang and Paul Jones are namebrands of spindles?· Links?
I haven't done in depth research on building my own CNC.· For a while I was looking at commercially available machines or laser cutter machines.· Mostly day dreaming of what could be done.· For those that build there own or buy one from you, is there standardization in the software to control the many CNC machines made/sold?· I mean, once you create a part in your favorite CAD, paint, circuit program, you output the data.· Some where along the line that data is churned into g-code.· From there, does the user have to create their own driver that interprets the g-code and sends the proper signals to the stepper controller?· I thought I read somewhere once in the Propeller forum that a guy made a program for the Prop that interpreted the g-code.·
There is much to learn here, just not enough hours in a day for this and the other things on my plate.· (keep talking though because you are making me really wanting one).
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Timothy D. Swieter
tdswieter.com
One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode
Software...
Mach3 has become the control software of choice. It's very cheap...I think about $150..
for what it does. It's used in industrial and commercial applications worldwide.
It does so much that it overwhelms me. One great thing is (with a bit of patience),
one can make there own customized screen displays for it. I use a very
simplified version myself.
I see the Mach3 site is down at the moment...there are changes happening there
but the Mach support group is as good as it could be.....
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/
The designer of the software answers most questions directly.
Spindles...
The Wolfgang spindle appears to be the thing of choice. One of our guys has
one and I'll be doing the tool holder for it shortly. He's waiting on me
before he can try it...so it'll happen pretty quick...[noparse];)[/noparse]
I don't know much more about it. I base most of my interest on the fact
that he uses some VERY high precision bearings in a few of his models.
He has a few things missing...the motors...but I'm sure he'll have that
available soon...
http://stores.ebay.ca/Wolfgang-Engineering
Maybe if he gets more support...
The Paul Jones spindle is in fairly wide use, but I understand they're harder to get
these days. I could be wrong on that. That's the one used in the You Tube
videos.
http://www.cnconabudget.com/
Anyone interested would need to email him.
His is a proven spindle for very precise PCB work.
I forget where I saw it, but there's a guy who took a laser from a DVD
burner and actually engraves light designs in wood with a cnc machine.
I saw it...it worked. No mirror arrangements. It probably wouldn't last
long, but I've got to try that one day....[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I can't say much about it right now, but the propeller will very likely
be controlling some small CNC machines before too much longer.
Me too!...I need 48 hour days!!...Badly!
Thanks Timothy!
John
I put that machine up on ebay...
http://tinyurl.com/2wp3bw
Thanks!
John
I don't quite understand the actual capabilities of your machine.
Is it used for cutting PCBs or drilling holes in PCBs?
Is it fully automated?
Can it also be used to cut Acrylics, Plastics and Aluminium?
Thanks.
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Post Edited (william chan) : 11/3/2007 2:01:19 PM GMT
It's simply an inexpensive "kit" with a cutting area of about 6 x 8 x 1.5 inches.
It's the "cheap & easy" way of getting a very usable small cnc machine.
It's not intended for metal work...only softer materials.
With determination and practice it'll mill very useful circuit boards.
The finer the desired traces...the more determination one will need.
For consistent and repeatable VERY fine work...this is the way to go...
http://www.lpkfusa.com/RapidPCB/CircuitboardPlotters/s62.htm
It's mostly a matter of getting the PCB perfectly flat relative to the
cutting bit. That's where the determination is needed. It can only
be done by the machine operator.
Any sufficiently rigid machine with backlash removed, really has no choice but to
do mechanical positioning. From there, it's all dependent on the spindle
and cutting tool/bit.
Thanks!
John
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But again...it's not easy to get everything all *perfectly *flat and
parallel. I've made about 40 machines now. I don't mill
boards myself. But, if I wanted to make a small run of say 24
boards with traces about .025...This would definitely
be how I'd do it. Repeatability is a great thing.
I DO use these for extremely fine cutting of tiny images in plastics.
The stepover I use is .003. That's traversing a bitmap image
moving from one scanline(row of pixels) to the next.
But that's plastic. Cutting a copper-faced fiberglass board
would react differently.
I'll make up some examples further down the road, so all would
know what really could be expected from a "homebuilt" small
machine. It'll be a good while before I have time to do that,
but it'd be useful info. I just do not want to mis-lead anyone.
The machines are good for many, many other things besides
PCB milling. Small custom enclosures is a good example.
John
How does the machine compensate for the milling bit wearing out and getting shorter?
What material can be milled by this machine besides PCB?
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I don't know how to build the controller to run 3 axis while reading
a file from an SD card or USB stick. Time is a problem in getting
machines produced...it takes a while.
Bits don't get shorter...they get dull. When it starts cutting too badly just
replace it. How fast that happens depends on the bit and material being
cut.
A machine like this is good for softer materials...not metal. I mostly
cut polyurethane blocks....similar to corian.
This is basically a "home made" machine. It's intended to get someone
started with CNC and be a long lasting, useful machine at the same
time. I use them to make parts for themselves.
If you look on cnczone.com, you'll see many designs that are "open source".
There's support there for those who'd like to build their own. It's
not very hard to make one and it's fun and a useful project at the same
time. I always encourage those inclined to try it. I'm up to around 40
machines so far...[noparse]:)[/noparse]
They'll work with plastics, wood, waxes. Delrin is a nice material to work with.
I'd expect some "light metal work"...but i don't suggest it until I get
time to do it myself. If I were to damage a machine...it'd be no problem
for me...I'm set up to repair or replace it. It could be too expensive of
a test for someone else though.
I made a folder with a 7mb video of it cutting a plastic block...
http://www.fireballcnc.com/access/M90/
Are the XYZ motor steppers?
In the video, the milling bit seems so thick, do you need to change to a thinner bit to mill pcbs?
I don't mind helping you design the SX controller board if you or someone else helps me understand the gerber input files.
To save costs for version 1.0, no need for USB drive.
Just a serial port interface to a PC or notebook will do.
The controller board shouldn't cost very much.
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now are painted. Painted would add another $100 to the $375 machine
price. But you can just spray paint it yourself for less than $15.
The motors are steppers. Nema 23's...280 oz. Which is overkill for this
machine, but it does fairly hard productive work. You can get motors
from Kelinginc.com for cheap.
The bit is a 1/4" carbide router bit in a 1/3 Hp rotary tool. you'd need
tiny fragile carbide bits for PCBs.
I'm hoping to make the machine completely stand alone...with no
computer hooked up to it. I have mini-itx computers to use for now,
but I want some cheap thing that just reads a file from an SD card.
Shipping one of these to Malaysia could be really expensive. It's mostly
MDF...weighs about 36 lbs. I don't know anything about customs and
what all they need to know.
It can get pretty expensive quickly. But my opinion is that the capabilities it
provides and what one learns from it are well worth the time and effort.
In-house Rapid prototyping is fast becoming a necessity for many small
businesses.
I'm not familiar with the gerber files myself, but look here...
http://pminmo.com/millingpcbs/milledpcb.htm
Phil knows how to mill boards...[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I'll help any way I can!
John
So....my questions:
What kind of spindle will your mill accept?· What is the drill bit runout?
What is the backlash when reversing directions on the X and Y axis?
Are your axis drives terminated with a .250 shaft that can be coupled to a Nema 23 stepper motor?
How much bench space does the mill - without any attachments - require?
Does the spindle travel and the work table remain stationary, or is it the other way around?
Could you please elaborate a bit on the materials(s) used to construct the mill?
Thanks
Sid
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Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift.
That is why they call it the present.
Don't have VGA?
Newzed@aol.com
·
Instead of a Mini-ITX, a MicroSXJr could be cheaper and it also supports USB.
See www.norhtec.com
But USB will dramatically add on the board costs.
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It'll accept a spindle up to something a little larger than a Dremel. I have
a trim router on one. drill runout would vary with the quality of the spindle....
Tool holders would need to be made or adapted. It comes ...usually...with a
holder for a Dremel model 300. Others are available.
What is the backlash when reversing directions on the X and Y axis?
It'll vary from machine to machine...they're hand made from MDF...
Usually no more than .005....some .000
Are your axis drives terminated with a .250 shaft that can be coupled to a Nema 23 stepper motor?
Yes...usually. Couplers will not be provided much longer. I use the good stuff. It
causes the price to be higher. Most people want cheap.....the good stuff has to go...[noparse];)[/noparse]
How much bench space does the mill - without any attachments - require?
15 x 16 inches without motors...Nema 23's attached...about 60 lbs when completed
with the usual electronics packages.
Does the spindle travel and the work table remain stationary, or is it the other way around?
The work table moves...I trust the rigidity of a bridge for holding the tool.
Could you please elaborate a bit on the materials(s) used to construct the mill?
MDF...Plastics...Good enough for the machines to work daily reproducing parts
for themselves. The video is making a hole for a bearing press-fit.
The Proxxon mill is an excellent way to go for making small boards! You
could make your controller available and do Very Well....[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Mine are NOT precision PCB milling machines. The Proxxon will do better.
Currently how are you controlling the stepper motors when you made the video?
I use boards from Hobbycnc.com and also controllers from Geckodrive.com
Instead of a Mini-ITX, a MicroSXJr could be cheaper and it also supports USB.
I'd actually prefer the SD card...but being as I don't have the necessary skills
to design the small controller...I go with what's available. It's not so much
about price with me as it is quality. I'd pay for the controller I want, but it
isn't available. I understand the problem is in writing the Gcode interpreter.
It's apparently much more complex than it initially seems.
The norhtec link is very interesting....Thanks!
John
How does your prices compare with other established mills already in the market?
Are there any product differentiations?
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machine available. These were designed to be easy to assemble, align
and are durable machines...unless exposed to moisture.
I've been refining this extremely simple design for 2 years, full time.
The point of them is to be very affordable machines that do
relatively hard work daily. There's really very little that *can*
go wrong with them. Again...they're used to make themselves.
They were actually intended to *be* PCB milling machines....BUT,
Expectations were too high for a machine in this price range. I don't
even know of a $2500 machine that would do what's been asked of
these machines as far as circuit board milling. So I only offer them
as "Hobby" type machines now. The "hobbyist" should be very
impressed where the person who wants to do 8/8 PCB milling will be
disappointed. I even had one guy who.. "can't use it unless I Guarantee
6/6"...(?!?)
What mine have going for them is a very small business can afford to have
several all doing a single task "semi"-continuously. As is likely very
well known here...a very inexpensive stand-alone controller is
very do-able.
But all that said...they are just cheap machines hand-made by a single
guy with nothing but home-made tools. While I DO believe strongly
in them...I leave it to someone to decide if they can find a use for them.
[noparse]:)[/noparse]
John
What do the numbers refer to? the finished board size in inches? some sort of resolution? [noparse][[/noparse]A quick google or wikipedia didn't help me.]
Daniel
It's traces 8 mils(.008) wide with spaces 8 mils wide between them...
??
John
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It's not suitable because it's a 7.5 degree motor...
You'd need 1.8 degree, Nema 23 frame motors.