Dead Hydra (semi-resolved, NTSC TV issues)
Wes Brown
Posts: 39
It appears that I have a dead or malfunctioning Hydra board now, as there is no video coming out of it. I can program it, I can communicate with it via USB.
What recourse do I have? Can I purchase a replacement Hydra board at cost, without the rest of the kit?
-Wes
Post Edited (Wes Brown) : 10/22/2007 8:34:47 AM GMT
What recourse do I have? Can I purchase a replacement Hydra board at cost, without the rest of the kit?
-Wes
Post Edited (Wes Brown) : 10/22/2007 8:34:47 AM GMT
Comments
IMHO, a safe bet would be to get another Propeller. That's on a socket, and is easily replaced. The video components are passive. It's highly likely those are not the issue. Perhaps the Propeller got damaged. PLL failure is pretty high on the list of things that can happen.
Does the VGA work? That can help troubleshoot the problem.
If the VGA runs, maybe the video pins got damaged. If it doesn't, some internals are damaged. (PLL)
I don't think you need a whole new board, unless it's something mechanical, like excessive stress on the video output jack.
Pick up a cheap chip puller, or gently ease the prop out of it's socket with a screwdriver, working each end a little at a time, until it pops free. (once you get a new prop)
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Today, I got the mirror demo working, but it's completely dead now. Nothing I load on there outputs any video. So it really seems as if there was a circuit (PLL?) that was progressively getting worse.
I'm trying the VGA next, later today, to see if I get any video out of there.
Anyone had a problem with fried Propeller PLLs from graphics demos? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
-Wes
Transgressions include:
connecting AC, not DC to demoboard. (still worked, and a friend is using it right now) I had two wall warts look exactly the same!
making wrong video connections
running lots of different video code, while learning to get one up and running.
Have you always applied the right power, and is your home electric wiring grounded properly? The last house I lived in had issues with that, leaving a potential between the TV and whatever I connected to it!! Maybe this happened to you, or maybe you just got a borderline prop.
I've ran most all of the demos, with plenty of learning tweaks. I don't think that's the issue. If you suspect some core electrical thing, maybe it's not a bad idea to put something between the prop and the display. VCR, RF - modulator. Perhaps your TV inputs are not well designed, or faulty?
BTW, if you end up thinking about buying a new board, I would seriously consider coley's hybrid. It's kind of a best of Demo Board, HYDRA, with the more clever addons (SD adapter, etc...) integrated. It's got the socket too, BTW. Only way to go. It comes with some nice demo / game stuff too.
Maybe it's just those pins. If so, you can work on VGA stuff until you score a new Propeller. And, if so, that other Prop can still be used for lots of things. Put the thing on a breadboard and continue learning. That aspect of the design is just brilliant.
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That's an idea -- I've been scratching my head about the video inputs. When I got the Hydra board, I realized that I had no CRT TVs in the house, so I went to Target and bought a 20" Memorex TV. I've just tested it with my Playstation 2, via RCA and SVideo, so I'm skeptical that may be the issue. I should drag the Hydra over and see if it works on the DLP in the living room.
That's a nice idea wrt to Coley's board. I took a look at that thread. Wow. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
-Wes
Loading the Hydra Asset Manager gives me a display, but many of the typical games and demos such as epmoyer's spacewar. HAM is using the Parallax graphics driver, and the Parallax TV driver. Are these two drivers far less aggressive about their NTSC timings? Hmm.
-Wes
It seems that my Hydra video issues are 'solved' -- by patching it through a cheap Gamestop video switchbox. Which totally makes no sense to me. Degrading the video signal helps? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
EDIT: Well ... maybe not so quick. It's back to not working again, though the Parallax original video driver works every time.
EDIT2: Not exactly the Parallax TV driver. I've tried other programs that use the TV driver, but they don't seem to work.
EDIT3: And now it's back to working again. Sigh.
-Wes
Post Edited (Wes Brown) : 10/21/2007 9:49:15 PM GMT
You probably don't have a broken Hydra. Not so cool, because you've a picky TV.
I've a VCR that I used to run video through. Once in a while it would just revert to the blue screen, even though there was video activity coming from the Propeller. Some devices are more tolerant than others are, it seems. Also, I had an older Zenith television that just would not play well with the PS1, but would display the Atari series of devices (computer, game consoles, etc...) just fine!. Running it through a VCR, etc... didn't help, either. Turns out, that TV had a circuit that failed to vertically sync up to that signal, and a service menu tweak took care of that. Why they didn't enable that option is beyond me. It never did impact the display of anything in a negative way.
My Sony WEGA television displays *anything* even remotely close to NTSC. The little APEX flat screen is not even close to as tolerant. That APEX was dirt cheap though. Going forward, with all the new TV tech coming online, perhaps this kind of thing is to be expected, more often than not...
(bummer, if so)
Coupla things I know now, that I didn't when I put that hi-color demo together. The timing on it is good. I had help with that, and it's not really any different than many non-interlaced NTSC signals are. It does go out of spec on the brighter colors though.
The prop has 8 intensity levels. Color gets added on as a +1 to the intensity signal, meaning if you ask it for a full brightness pixel, the color will add to that, putting that pixel out of range. Maybe that's the trouble right there! Perhaps your television is sensitive to this.
Really, one should just be using intensities 02 - 06, for a total of 5 intensities, not 6 as was done in that program. The first two, 00 and 01, are sync level, blacker than black, signal levels. If these appear in the display, a lot of TV's will throw a fit. On the three TV's I have, only the Sony really handled that nicely. The worst was an older 80's Zenith portable. It will tolerate almost none of that in the active display area, with the APEX being somewhat tolerant.
So, that's a no-no, for sure.
I've not had any trouble with the over bright pixels. I'm not going to incorporate them into future efforts, now that I know about the outta spec issue.
Maybe try eliminating those colors and see if the TV will deal. Maybe just start with a blank screen, leaving the grey borders and graphics area. Plot out some lines, bars, etc... to see if the TV deals or not.
Getting a capture card is not a bad idea. I snagged one of the USB devices for my laptop, thus getting rid of the TV altogether. Being able to do screen captures is a big plus, as is short movies to debug with. Damn cool. The card I have is really great --a lot like the Sony, in that it will display more or less anything even close to NTSC. One big plus is not putting wear and tear on the TV flyback transformer. I got more than one snap, crackle, pop outta the Zenith portable when testing and learning. Was only a matter of time before it was gonna just give it up big. I like it's picture, so I'm nice to it as I won't be getting another one of those anytime soon.
The one I have is a MiniHDTVusb, model number PTV-384. Cost about $80 and is just sweet. It will do all the various standards too.
I'm starting to work on a PAL driver, for the first time. There are essentially *no* TV's that are suitable for display, here in the States either. So it's the capture device, or some online purchase of a suitable TV.
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I may just end up foisting this cheap Memorex TV onto a friend or a sucker willing to pay a small amount of cash for it, and see about getting a used Sony WEGA TV. Not many WEGAs about 20", but a slightly bigger Wega should still fit on my desk -- this cheap Memorex really is chunky and deep.
All the nicer NTSC CRT TVs are going away. Get them while you still can! [noparse];)[/noparse] Best Buy didn't have even one, due to the ATSC requirements.
-Wes
Andre'
Mine was Very loose but I found a snug one to replace it with.
Another idea is double socketing it. That works too.
That's what I did. Only had one problem with loose XTAL. Happened when travelling with the HYDRA.
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Dont solder the xtal in, trust me. You want to be able to change it, that's why its in a socket.
Andre'