Dumb questions

Skogsgurra

It seems to be a popular way of starting a question with "Excuse me for putting a dumb question" and similar wordings that makes me totally uninterested in reading any more. Why should I be interested in a dumb question?

I see this everywhere - and sometimes also hear it at meetings. I do not like it. Maybe it's me.

Even worse is the answer: "There are no dumb questions - only dumb answers"

And that, I do not like at all.

Please. can't we avoid those "dumb" habits. They serve no purpose. And they irritate. At least me. But then,·I am a grumpy old fart. That may be why.

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Graham Stabler

Its a mechanism to avoid embarrassment or chastisement. The trouble to me is that when you are a beginner you don't even know what it is exactly that you don't know and a lack of confidence can mean you are scared to do some basic reading in case its a waste of time. This leads for a search for answers to questions that don't make sense or answers to questions that really amount to please do the work for me. Its really hard on a forum to gauge how much a person needs to know, you can patronize them or go right over their head. I think some on the forum are too harsh (possibly me included) but likewise some are not prepared to sit down and do the reading they have been told will help them, or be prepared to spend time getting nowhere which is often a prerequisite to moving forwards.

I'm with you though, lets ban these words:

Dumb
Stupid
Newbie
Newb

Skywalker49

S. and Graham,

I fully agree but let's ban also excuses at the end a message such as .... "But then, I am a grumpy old fart. That may be why."
Are your comments serious or not?
If they are then it doesn't matter that you are grumpy. If they aren't, you should walk the dog before writing messages.

Have a very nice day,
Ed

_Mark

Graham Stabler said...
Its really hard on a forum to gauge how much a person needs to know, you can patronize them or go right over their head.

I'm thinking this is part of the motivation for adding indicator words like "newb" to a question. At least for me, not only do I feel kinda stupid (whether rightly so or not), for not knowing something which is probably trivial to more experienced people. But also it makes it easier for others to gauge what kind of answer would be useful to that person (i.e. no need to worry about answers being patronizing, if someone admits to be a newb at something).

Personally, I don't really mind either way. If I get an overly patronizing answer with lots of stuff that I already know, I'm simply grateful that someone took the effort at all. And if someone is being harsh, for example telling me to "RTFM", then I gladly and humbly turn to the manual to find my answer (making a mental note to not ask again before trying to figure things out myself). As long as a discussion remains half decent, intentions are good, and leads to an answer in one way or another, I'm happy. And I hope to be able to do the same for others.

Perhaps it's "dumb" to ask a certain question when the answer is staring you right in the face, which is why I tend to add indications that I'm not simply too lazy to find my own answers. But even then, an answer that stares you right in the face might somehow not be readily apparent. Even the most experienced people manage not to see the simple answer from time to time. And often enough, those people feel similarly stupid when they have to ask about it. Nothing wrong with that, imho, it's only natural.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

Keep in mind that this forum (and the manuals for that matter) are only ideal for certain learning styles. Different people have different ways of absorbing information. The three most popular learning styles are Visual (by seeing), Auditory (learn by hearing), and Kinesthetic (learn by doing). Myself, I tend to fall somewhere between Visual & Kinesthetic. (Hence the reason I try to load lots of pictures into the "Cookbook") What is misunderstood by some here, is that you can in fact "read" those first three chapters of the Propeller manual and still be very lost. My own learning style requires me to find ways to apply the information hands on before I understand it.

(I know, my highschool teacher side is starting to show. [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Oldbitcollector

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Buttons . . . check. Dials . . . check. Switches . . . check. Little colored lights . . . check.

— Calvin, of 'Cavin and Hobbes.

Skogsgurra

Luke,

Why couldn't a grumpy old fart mean what he says?

I am not quite following you when you first say that you fully agree - and then ask if I am serious.

Anyhow. I can understand that a post like mine makes you wonder. And I am old enough to understand why these words may be needed now and then. What I object to is that they seem to be used more and more and quite often by people that are neither newbies nor asking dumb questions. There are unnecessary questions and there are questions that you ask because you didn't understand something. Or misread. But those questions are not dumb per se.

Are we not equals? Do we need foot-scraping and fumbling with caps? Answers: Yes, no, no. Let's put our questions in faith that we will not be ridiculed. Isn't that a much better way?

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Ken Peterson

We have had certain individuals on this forum ( I won't mention any names), who have been less than patient with people who either didn't read the manual, or didn't understand the manual. Although I didn't have many problems understanding the manual, I found that to get the information you need you have to wade through almost the entire document. This proves to be discouraging for those who don't read manuals like they would read a novel.

Those who have put a great effort into creating additional documentation and tutorials are to be commended, and it would be nice if we could somehow create a centralized "library" on the forum site to which we can publish these references. I read deSilva's machine language tutorial, and not only was it a good alternative perspective on a lot of the finer points of programming, but it was a very entertaining read compared to the manual. We need to see more of this. Once I feel I've progressed to "expert" status on the Propeller, I may contribute a few things myself.

Although the Propeller is a very powerful and capable little device, it can't do your bidding unless you do some studying. Rather than berate people for not reading the documentation, we need to strive for better, and more varied, documentation. And we need to encourage studying without beating someone over the head with the book.

Don't forget. We're here to help, not to make people feel embarrassed or self conscious or stupid. No matter what anyone asks, or how they ask it, there is a polite way to respond. Even if your response is to tell them that their question can be answered by reading the documentation.

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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?

parts-man73

Ken Peterson said...
Those who have put a great effort into creating additional documentation and tutorials are to be commended, and it would be nice if we could somehow create a centralized "library" on the forum site to which we can publish these references.

I've made a section of my website just for this purpose. In fact, the tutorial by DeSilva is mirrored there. Any additions are welcomed.

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Brian

uController.com - home of SpinStudio

Skywalker49

S.

It looks like language is the problem here ..
I was trying to say the following:
- your point is that one should stop to make these non productive excuses UPFRONT such as dumb, newbie etc.
- my point is that making a statement - like you did and I even agree with it - is fine but one should then not make excuses AFTERWARDS (old, grumpy etc.),
because that relativates (?) the statement as if one were a newbie who did dare to speak up for the first time.

back with the feet on the ground: I'm very happy with the forum, I'm happy with the newbie's (makes me feel not alone in the dark) and I'm happy with the old grumpy
man who speaks up and initiate a discussion.

Have a good day.
Ed, Luke for S. :<))

Skogsgurra

We are all happy then! Even if some of us are grumpy..

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ratronic

I agree with Ken Peterson's point of view!

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Fix it if ain't broke·

D Rat


Dave Ratcliff· N6YEE

ALIBE

hmmm. are we proposing to embark on "teaching" people how to communicate. Let people choose how they want to communicate my friends - we don't want "cookie cutter" style communication packets.

IMHO
[noparse]:)[/noparse]

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"any small object, accidentally dropped, goes and hides behind a larger object."

·
ALIBE - Artificial LIfe BEing. In search of building autonoumous land robot

Dgswaner

how about we keep this an open forum and let everyone post in there own way and be open and positive in all of the help we give or take and not have a series of rules we have to follow to post a message. I totally think that sometimes not giving help can be the best help. But that doesn't mean saying "go read a book, then ask again". that means saying nothing.

I fall in the lazy don't want to read category so about asking "dumb questions" if you don't know what a command is called or much about a concept it's hard to read about it, how do you look up a term in a 500 page book if you don't know the correct name of the term. or even which book to look in. it's not a matter of laziness for me, it's about a matter of time. I appreciate the time saved in asking "dumb questions" and I try to give more than I take. by helping on the questions that i can answer. and I at least at present always try and find an answer before I ask on the a forum.

By indicating a skill level it also help the person responding, give a response more on the level to the person asking.

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A complex design is the sign of an inferior designer. - Jamie Hyneman, Myth Buster

Post Edited (Dgswaner) : 9/13/2007 9:00:58 PM GMT

Ken Peterson

The only thing I dont' like is when someone writes in and says "I'm a Noob and have never programmed the Propeller. I want to build a super robot with 10 propellers in it. Give me the code I need to so this."

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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?

ALIBE

I have been at this Prop forum registered since Mar 2006 and have wandered about unregisered in other Parallax forums 2+ years prior to that; In all those years, I don't beleive I have ever seen a posting that eluded to,"Give me the code I need to build super bot - and I don't want to do any work".

There were variations of, "This is my dream/goal, what do i have today as libraries or objects, so I don;t have to reinvent the wheel, and how does one put them all together". Which is a perfectly understandable, to be expected situation+question for someone to have.

all great things start w/ a dream - the "what to" part, and then get into the details - the "how to" part.

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"any small object, accidentally dropped, goes and hides behind a larger object."

·
ALIBE - Artificial LIfe BEing. In search of building autonoumous land robot

IAN STROME

The great thing about re-inventing the wheel, is that somebody
might do it better.

Ian

Interference Fits DON'T