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The future of the Basic Stamp — Parallax Forums

The future of the Basic Stamp

MigsMigs Posts: 95
edited 2007-09-20 12:56 in BASIC Stamp
Friends:

What do you all see as the Basic Stamp metamorphosis in the next few years? What direction will Parallax follow? I think the didactic base is the best out there, and this (I think) should be part of the future. What do you all think? I see some of the new Parallax chips like the propeller as a bit intimidating, and this might hamper their growth a little, since the learning curve is steeper. The other high end chips are similar in this sense. Thus my hopes ride on the "Stamp" paradigm. All of you chime in! -Migs

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"Sometimes we forget that the world itself is paradise." Douglas Coupland, 'Microserfs'
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite" - William Blake
"We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda
"One single grateful thought raised to heaven is the most perfect prayer. " G. E. Lessing
“How much of human life is lost in waiting.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Men often mistake notoriety for fame, and would rather be remembered for their vices and follies than not be noticed at all.” Harry Truman
My website: www.intoku.net my e-mail:mreznicek@pretensa.com me:Miguel Reznicek
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Comments

  • D FaustD Faust Posts: 608
    edited 2007-09-11 19:36
    I think that the parallax stamp has had a great run.· I do not forsee it going beyond BASIC Stamp III if it gets that far because if it evolves much more it would not·be as easy to use.· In contrast, I do not see the BASIC Stamp being put out of production any time soon because people seem to really love the stamp for its ease of use.· It's product loyalty.· Personally, I would like to see a stamp that uses one prop cog for interpereter and gives the user access to the others.· Multi-cog stamp!· If this was made it would sell like wild fire (mabey not the best metaphor?) and wouldn't discontinue until the prop gets out dated.· My thoughts.

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  • MigsMigs Posts: 95
    edited 2007-09-11 20:42
    Yes, I would like to see a hyper fast Basic Stamp that is still controlled by Basic, with tons of space for your code, and that every "cog" could have an independent program (still basic) running in it simultaneously as needed. Each cog would have LOTS of memory so programs would not have to be split up. Say one cog could be assigned for drive (servos or motors), another for sensors, another for communications, etc. No cog would slow down the others. And of course, the PC would compile all the code prior to downloading it to the stamp! Oh. and while we are dreaming, all the math functions in floating point, and no splitting stuff up into byte parts! -Migs

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    "Sometimes we forget that the world itself is paradise." Douglas Coupland, 'Microserfs'
    "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite" - William Blake
    "We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda
    "One single grateful thought raised to heaven is the most perfect prayer. " G. E. Lessing
    “How much of human life is lost in waiting.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
    "Men often mistake notoriety for fame, and would rather be remembered for their vices and follies than not be noticed at all.” Harry Truman
    My website: www.intoku.net my e-mail:mreznicek@pretensa.com me:Miguel Reznicek
  • MigsMigs Posts: 95
    edited 2007-09-11 20:47
    And lets add support for Dynamixel servos that use a serial type communication chain between them and a super high BAUD rate as these servos would need. Also, we would get rid of Serial programming, but rather switch to USB or some form of Blue Tooth so we could get rid of some of the wires. -Migs

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    "Sometimes we forget that the world itself is paradise." Douglas Coupland, 'Microserfs'
    "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite" - William Blake
    "We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda
    "One single grateful thought raised to heaven is the most perfect prayer. " G. E. Lessing
    “How much of human life is lost in waiting.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
    "Men often mistake notoriety for fame, and would rather be remembered for their vices and follies than not be noticed at all.” Harry Truman
    My website: www.intoku.net my e-mail:mreznicek@pretensa.com me:Miguel Reznicek
  • D FaustD Faust Posts: 608
    edited 2007-09-11 21:24
    My guess would be that you could make a device to program by bluetooth, but it would be large to put into a chip.· Keep dreaming

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  • LittleTykeLittleTyke Posts: 34
    edited 2007-09-14 13:04
    My wish would be for the Basic Stamp 2 to become cheaper. It is very expensive compared to e.g. raw PIC chips.
  • Bruce BatesBruce Bates Posts: 3,045
    edited 2007-09-14 14:30
    LittleTyke -

    If you want a less expensive BS-2 take a look at the Parallax OEM BS-2 that you put together yourself. Comparison between any PBASIC Stamp product and any raw PIC chip is both unfair and an uneven comparison.

    Regards,

    Bruce Bates

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  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2007-09-14 14:38
    Just buy the pre-programmed PIC or SX interpreter chip and build the rest yourself [noparse]:)[/noparse]

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    - Rick
  • David H.David H. Posts: 78
    edited 2007-09-14 15:50
    I've built the OEM BS2 board, and it works great. I also like the "plug it in and go" ease of the Basic Stamps. It looks like the propeller chip would be ease to hook up, but I know nothing about programming the propeller. It would be nice if it could be a PBasic programming, even if it had a couple of added commands. I don't think the prices are too bad, considering what they can do, and be used for!!!

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    David


    There are 10 types of people in this world,...
    Those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't!!!
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2007-09-14 17:27
    LittleTyke said...
    My wish would be for the Basic Stamp 2 to become cheaper. It is very expensive compared to e.g. raw PIC chips.
    The BASIC Stamp is a development tool.· As such it contains everything required for operation and programming on a small DIP-compatible board.· All components such as voltage regulator, EEPROM, resonator, brownout detector and support components such as resistors and capacitors are all included.· Each BASIC Stamp Module is also hand tested.· To reduce cost while still maintaining the ease of use of the BASIC Stamp you can build an OEM version onto your own board using the needed components, starting with the Interpreter, EEPROM and resonator.· This would reduce cost in applications where you would need quantity units.· Building these onto your own board would mean not needing a development module.· This is why we sell the OEM components.· I hope this helps.· Take care.

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    Chris Savage
    Parallax Tech Support
  • cyplesmacyplesma Posts: 76
    edited 2007-09-14 20:31
    Chris,

    that is exactly what I like about the stamp is it's ready to go drop board onto a breadboard use minimal extra components, write up some code (vice versa) and test away. done with the dev, I can then use that same stamp to drop in to sockets on a pcb and stuff it into a chassis of literally any temperament and beat the chassis till it falls apart or when I get bored with it. then pull the stamp and do it all over again for my next "what about this" project.
  • LittleTykeLittleTyke Posts: 34
    edited 2007-09-16 07:53
    Oh dear, I seem to have touched a raw nerve with my comment about Stamp pricing. But here in the UK a Stamp 2 costs around £36.75 and a PIC16F84A-20/P costs £3.20. I appreciate that the Stamp includes on-chip components, but even so, the cost seems excessive to me. I would expect to pay around £20 - £25 tops for it. Maybe we are paying over the odds for the importing.
  • D FaustD Faust Posts: 608
    edited 2007-09-16 10:59
    Well, they are $50 and the US and after currency conversion to Euro(right currency, right?) it is 36.04.· So if you are paying 36.75 you are about even.

    For reference, the 25 Euro price you gave woudl be about $35 US, and the 20 Euro would be $27.· So for us American the goal price would be about twenty dollars.·

    I also agree that the stamp is a little overpriced ($10 maybe), but they work great, and look good too!

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  • LittleTykeLittleTyke Posts: 34
    edited 2007-09-16 18:48
    No, the UK sterling price equivalent to US$49 is approx £25 (2 bucks to the pound at the moment). We don't have euros in Britain. My £36.75 cost would be roughly US$73.50 in the States. That's a LOT of moolah!
  • D FaustD Faust Posts: 608
    edited 2007-09-16 21:30
    When I posted that I had a funny feeling that I used the wrong currency.blush.gif· I agree, tha tis a lot for a stamp.·

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  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2007-09-17 07:43
    My vote is for a propeller chip
    basic stamp that runs a PBASIC extended version.
    If the existing propeller chip cannot be made
    to run PBASIC, then release a new Basic stamp
    that can. While your at it, put on a bigger memory
    chip so the new stamp won't have to jump back
    and forth between memory pages or load in
    multiple sections of the one program. And keep
    the existing line of Basic Stamps from the
    Basic Stamp 1 all the way up to the 2px because
    they are totally fab. Just my 2 cents worth.

    humanoido
  • cyplesmacyplesma Posts: 76
    edited 2007-09-17 14:27
    humanoido,

    I agree keep what's already out there but definitely make a stamp with a whole lot more memory. maybe a stamp that I can plug a eeprom chip into a socket, like a ram. OR how about a eeprom cartridge about the same physical size of a SD card. That way when I'm working on 5 or 6 stamp projects I can keep my development board and instead of reloading or reburning the eeprom I can just swap out the eeprom and have different eeproms of different memory sizes.

    1G of ram would be too much for (maybe needed in another 5 years), but for now something with a 1 meg max would be good for now.

    just thinking out loud (jtol)
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2007-09-17 14:53
    LittleTyke said...
    Oh dear, I seem to have touched a raw nerve with my comment about Stamp pricing. But here in the UK a Stamp 2 costs around £36.75 and a PIC16F84A-20/P costs £3.20. I appreciate that the Stamp includes on-chip components, but even so, the cost seems excessive to me. I would expect to pay around £20 - £25 tops for it. Maybe we are paying over the odds for the importing.
    No nerves have been affected, however you're comparing Apples to Oranges.· You are comparing the BASIC Stamp Module to a PIC chip, which the BASIC Stamp 2 has one it, along with our interpreter firmware.· A better comparison would be the SX Microcontroller we carry.· They are priced at $2.79 in Qty. 1 and run at speeds of 75-80MIPS.· There is also a free BASIC compiler for the SX.· the only hardware requirement is an SX-Key or SX-Blitz! programmer.· To see the overall specifications please see the following link.· Take care.

    http://www.parallax.com/sx/chips.asp

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    Chris Savage
    Parallax Tech Support
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-09-17 15:21
    humanoido,
    The existing Propeller chip is certainly capable of running an extended version of PBasic. The issue is that Parallax has limited programming resources for writing a completely new PBasic interpreter for the Propeller. They have already provided a free Spin compiler/interpreter/assembler for the Propeller that is much more capable in many ways than PBasic. There will be a C compiler for the Propeller in a few months for a reasonable cost (not free). How much would you be willing to pay a 3rd party to do a PBasic compiler? It's technically feasible for someone to produce a PBasic to Spin compiler that could use existing Spin I/O drivers. Again, how much would you be willing to pay for it? How big do you think the market is (in terms of potential customers who would pay for it?)

    cyplesma,
    Physically, it wouldn't be a Stamp with all that extra hardware hanging off it. The Propeller is really the way to go. For example, you can attach an SD card to a SpinStamp using just 4 I/O pins. Existing programs like FemtoBasic or BoeBotBasic are capable of automatically running programs from the attached SD card.

    Although it would be possible to modify the existing PBasic interpreter to read its interpretive code from an SD card, managing the PC-compatible file structure would be prohibitive in terms of the memory needed for the interpreter and the interpreter would run slower as well.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2007-09-17 16:30
    Okay, here is my 'two cents' worth.

    Since you are using SX48s for the microprocessor with two unused ports, why not have another port available to drive two colored leds mounted on the Stamp itself. I know this is copying a feature found in a competitor, but they did copy your 24pin Stamp format. So it is not big deal. You could make your two colored LEDs orange and blue, just to be different than their colors.

    The rationale is quite simple. I would no longer have to breadboard LEDs to provide a simple blink test to confirm the device is operational or port to a computer for a 'hello world'. And I wouldn't have to worry about wasting pins among the usual 16 for blinking LEDs.

    Another·innovation might be to juggle the ports a bit and have the Stamp use the SX's internal Comparitor to warn of a low battery/low voltage condition. You could either report in DEBUG or have one of those blinking lights get your attention.

    I do understand that this would require a lot of shifting around software features in PBasic's current architecture, but customers will see the value in these items.

    And then there is always room for the 3.3volt BasicStamp to save power and meet compatiblity with the Propeller and whatever else you might want to operate at 3.3volt.· This Stamp could operate on a Lithium 3.3volt button battery when the regulator is excluded - extremely compact.

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    "Everything in the world is purchased by labour; and our passions are the only causes of labor." -- David·Hume (1711-76)········
    ···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

    Post Edited (Kramer) : 9/17/2007 4:41:54 PM GMT
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2007-09-17 18:19
    Kramer,

    Which two lines are unused? On the SX48-based BASIC Stamp Modules all the I/O lines are accounted for when you consider the potential p40 variants the interpreter is based on. This is a compatibility thing and means that the BS2p24 and BS2p40 don’t have entirely different firmware. The extra I/O lines are pulled high on the 24-pin unit and remain connected as inputs by default. Take care.

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    Chris Savage
    Parallax Tech Support
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2007-09-18 07:48
    Sorry Chris,
    I thought the BS2p40 might be an issue. I wasn't aware that the 24pin Stamp used the extra lines as inputs. So it seems all pins are already taken.

    I do realize that my suggestion opens a huge can of worms about compatiblities in terms of moving software from one version of the BS to another.

    An alternative might be a pilot lite on the Stamp. But that seems a bit silly and at times it might just unnecessarily run down a battery. Too bad that the SX-52 is no longer in production. That had 4 more pins available.

    Maybe Parallax could provide for blinking LEDs on the SX Proto boards with a pair of jumpers to enable them.

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    "Everything in the world is purchased by labour; and our passions are the only causes of labor." -- David·Hume (1711-76)········
    ···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

    Post Edited (Kramer) : 9/18/2007 7:54:08 AM GMT
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2007-09-18 11:03
    Mike Green, I understand that someone will have to write the PBASIC for the Propeller chip and that takes money. But, how about Tiny Pbasic that could be written much faster and maybe not include every single function of the full blown integer PBASIC? This would be a wonderful challenge for someone that enjoys a good programming challenge and learning about the propeller chip. After the dust settles down, maybe Chip can spin up a version for us or help get started in the right direction.

    humanoido
  • SN96SN96 Posts: 318
    edited 2007-09-18 13:08
    Parallax has gone in the right direction with all of their products.

    As far as the future of the stamp I would leave it unchanged except perhaps speed and memory. If speed can't be improved without changing the dynamics of the orginal stamp, then at least more program space would be nice.

    I would like to see a violet colored module called the BS2pz or something like that. [noparse]:)[/noparse]

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    Mike



    ·
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2007-09-18 14:56
    Kramer said...(trimmed)
    An alternative might be a pilot lite on the Stamp. But that seems a bit silly and at times it might just unnecessarily run down a battery. Too bad that the SX-52 is no longer in production. That had 4 more pins available.
    Kramer,

    ·· The problem here is that the SX52 was too large to fit on a BASIC Stamp Module, so we wouldn't have been able to pursue that as an option anyway.· Sorry!· =)

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    Chris Savage
    Parallax Tech Support
  • LittleTykeLittleTyke Posts: 34
    edited 2007-09-18 15:11
    Chris Savage (Parallax) said...
    ....however you're comparing Apples to Oranges.....

    But why is the UK price of the Stamp 2 roughly 50% higher than the US price?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2007-09-19 17:35
    Chris,
    At the risk of being pedantic, when I refer to Parallax's schematics I see that at least two of the BasicStamps - the BS24p and BS24pe - have unused lines. I do understand that the BS40p already uses all available pins.

    Since the software for the BS40p can enable the second bank, Parallax apparently could have two LEDs on some of the 24 pin BasicStamps enabled as a second bank of I/O. Granted that 14 pins would still go nowhere and be useless, but the concept of onboard indicator LEDs is a genuine future possibility.

    My whole reason for making these suggestions is that people really appreciate such subtlities. Having these may keep a few of us loyal if this is truely a need. And of course, Parallax can have yet another edition of BasicStamps in the 24pin format.

    The other I/O suggestion is entirely a software project, as I believe that Port B has three pins that can be used as a comparitor. Two are input for comparison and one is optional output. So far, Parallax has ignored this hardware feature, but again adding goodies can never hurt. It can be used to indicate a low battery to warn for early shut down and replacement. This would be a nice feature for R/C airplane applications as it would provide time to land without loss of control.

    It is the little things that make up want to upgrade - learn a bit more or try a new feature.

    And yes, I do understand that the SX52 will never be revived. Fortunately I have five SX52 boards to play with. But in truth, 16 i/o pins are generally more than enough to keep me busy. It is the programing that is really the art.

    Cheers.

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    "Everything in the world is purchased by labour; and our passions are the only causes of labor." -- David·Hume (1711-76)········
    ···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2007-09-19 17:48
    Regarding UK prices, I believe it is a combination of two things. The first is the U.K. has value added tax that is huge - same in the E.U.

    And the second is that the retailers buy in such small quantities that the wholesale price break does not offset all the related costs [noparse][[/noparse]shipping, import duty, etc.] and allow them to make a reasonable [noparse][[/noparse]or desired] profit without a big increase in price over the direct purchase.

    Parallax is not in a position to significantly reduce the wholesale price as the E.U. has just forced them to convert their whole production facility to ROHS Lead free production. Though considered, it wasn't worthwhile to run two production lines with individual inspection and so forth.

    Fortunately, Parallax is commited to producing a product that can be imported world-wide. And, they spend a lot of time and effort producing excellent texts that can be downloaded at no costs. At least, you don't have a hefty price and value added tax on the literature.

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    "Everything in the world is purchased by labour; and our passions are the only causes of labor." -- David·Hume (1711-76)········
    ···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2007-09-19 18:28
    Kramer,

    Let’s look at it this way…While we don’t create a 40-pin version of the BS2pe or the BS2px in theory the interpreter chip could be used in such a fashion. Some customers have done this. The I/O lines on the extra pins are pulled-up via the internal 20K pull-up resistors on the SX. Because of this putting an LED on there would do two things…First it would require revising the board, which has limited room anyway. Second it would mean that by default the LED would be on unless the I/O line was forced low by program. Otherwise you’d have to set it up so that bringing the line LOW would turn it on, which is somewhat counter-intuitive. Currently there are no plans to change the modules in any way, but it’s not too difficult to add an LED to an OEM design following the above active-low setup. Take care.

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    Chris Savage
    Parallax Tech Support
  • LittleTykeLittleTyke Posts: 34
    edited 2007-09-19 18:33
    Kramer said...
    Regarding UK prices, I believe it is a combination of two things. The first is the U.K. has value added tax that is huge - same in the E.U.

    I didn't add on the VAT yet!! An additional 17.5% (in the UK) is added on top of the £36.75. Maybe you're beginning to appreciate my woe!
  • MCL9449MCL9449 Posts: 6
    edited 2007-09-19 21:49
    The Stamps are priced the way they are because that is the value that people have place on them (i.e. enough people buy them at that price to make their production worthwhile). If people thought it was too much, they wouldn't buy them and Parallax would lower the price (or quit producing them). I'm just happy that they haven't become greedy and raised the price (like a lot of other companies have)!
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