Prop pda???
mcstar
Posts: 144
Yesterday I had a thought, I wonder if anyone else has thought of this or starting designing something like it.· I've always wanted a nice metal cased handheld computer.· So, I thought it would be nice to have a small, portable device with a propeller as it's cpu.· Something like a Pocket PC or perhaps a clamshell style PDA device.··I think this would be just fantastatic.·
We could have the world's first Multiple COG handheld pc!·We'd definately need· an SD card slot and some type of keypad with a descent screen.· Has anyone else thought about this concept?· I have the abiltiy to cast aluminum molds, and perhaps someone·has a metal shop to machine it into a hard case??·We'd need, a small LCD·display, and·some kind of keypad needs to be found.· We'd also need space and connectors for a Lith-Ion battery.· Then if we we'd have·fantastic handheld pda type of device.··Does anyone want to get into such a project?
1) It would need to be small enough to fit into your pocket (maybe clamshell).·
2) It could have USB, SD, and perhaps a few other interface ports (rca, sound??)
3) A descent LCD back lit color screen would be nice (touch sensitive???).
4) Possibly support PCMCIA???
5) We'd need to think about how to support Propeller X2 when it comes out!!!
·
We could have the world's first Multiple COG handheld pc!·We'd definately need· an SD card slot and some type of keypad with a descent screen.· Has anyone else thought about this concept?· I have the abiltiy to cast aluminum molds, and perhaps someone·has a metal shop to machine it into a hard case??·We'd need, a small LCD·display, and·some kind of keypad needs to be found.· We'd also need space and connectors for a Lith-Ion battery.· Then if we we'd have·fantastic handheld pda type of device.··Does anyone want to get into such a project?1) It would need to be small enough to fit into your pocket (maybe clamshell).·
2) It could have USB, SD, and perhaps a few other interface ports (rca, sound??)
3) A descent LCD back lit color screen would be nice (touch sensitive???).
4) Possibly support PCMCIA???
5) We'd need to think about how to support Propeller X2 when it comes out!!!
·
Comments
2) Muxed TV/VGA would be good too. (tv/vga resistor networks hooked to the same pins) Some way to support game pads would be a must too. (built in ala gameboy? using USB?) Also a serial port would be a must, gotta be capable of programing a prop and BS2 with it [noparse]:D[/noparse] (no software for this yet...YET)
3) Nice? i'd call that a must have feature. Touch sensative would also be a must in my book. I hate pointy-sticks and anything other than a touch screen uses lots of space.
4) naw, PCMCIA is big, has lots of pins, and redundant if SDIO support can be added. (and maby a second SD slot) Aw heck, why re-invent the wheel, just include a slot that's compatible with Hydra expansion cards.
5) Prop X2 support is easy. use a socketed dip prop, a jumbo eeprom, and provide extra space arround the prop. Someone is bound to make a Prop1 dip-40 compatibility module for the Prop X2
There has been some discussion of small keyboards for something like this. I think the Y-port thread was hijacked with a bunch of discussion on this. Also, i remember a thread on fitting a prop in and Altoid tin that talked about this. My personal preference would be to side step this issue completely.
Dasher ( http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ ) provides a fairly fast and intuitive way to input text with just a pointing device and a screen. (a track ball or pointy-stick could also run it) go ahead and try it => www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/TryJavaDasherNow.html (i like "click mode", under the control menu, a lot better than "normal")
The primary down side I see is that Dasher would require a custom display driver (for the 30+ sprites on screen at once) and a radical rework of the available Dasher code to reduce the memory requirements. (a pretrained text predictor would be a good start)
my log(100) bits,
Marty
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Lunch cures all problems! have you had lunch?
But I thought of a 2 propeller version, with control capabilities, fast ADC, inputs and outputs "a la" HP41 and its HP-IL interface.
I am still a bit far, but would be really cool, 10 or more hours of battery life, of course
It has got a serial 128 * 128 pixel 16-bit color display (microOLED 128)
A keyboard consisting of 59 pushbuttons (3 for space-key) with a paper over to label the buttons
A SD-card holder
It's currently getting power from a 9-volt battery, but that's might not enough to use it for a long period. (The display draws about 110mA if all pixles are set!)
If you see the pictures I'm not using the battery, I'm using an external power regulator while I'm developing the software (still a lot to do!)
I post a picture too let you see it.
Filip
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I do not pretend to do advertisement, but have a look at my page www.geocities.com/hppacito/calcs.html
Your idea is quite sound
The keyboard as per usual is really tricky, a paper with the keys drawn on it is a solution I'm also using at the time
and use another layer of plastic 3 or 4 mm think also fressed to hold the keys, like the HP48. The depicted HP-67 has individual keys. Replicate that would be the panacea. But I dd not find yet a suitable resine, and dont forget the template for the keys. Do you have any ideas about that ?
In due course, one or two weeks, I'll route a board for this project, with appropriate power supply for battery operation, LCD port, SD and a port for a matrix keyboard. I'll post it here. I got a 128x128 mono LCD and a 128x256 also mono for this, they are sort of small.
Anybody takes in programming a floating point package for 64 bit mantissa ?
Nice ideas, nice ideas...
thanks for sharing your pictures. That's a great prototype that's along the lines of what I'm thinking. Something portable, self contained and self powered. I think I'm going to start designing a few case ideas in a 3-D modelling program and continue to search for good, low cost, low pin count, low power displays. I've got a few to play with from some older pda's I've had (a pocket PC, a few Cybikos, and an Intermec clamshell) but all these are either high pin count, or I have no idea where they came from. I've heard there are some decent displays that use 3 wire interfaces, so I'm looking for ideas on that. It would be nice if we could come up with something that's useable by many and fairly simple to construct. I'm also interested in total portability and extensibiltiy as much as possible.
Why do you need a 128 x 128 colour screen?
The best PDAs in my collection, and still in use, are ALL monochrome LCD models.
The Psion Organiser II series(almost bulletproof) use either a 2 x 16 char or an 4 x 20 char Mono LCD, and the Series 3c has a 480x160 black/gray/white LCD, and that has full WYSIWYG wordprocessor and spreadsheet.
the II runs for months on a 9V PP3 battery, and incidentally stores data on EPROMs.
(Yes, the type you need an UVlamp to erase)
The Series 3c does 45 - 60 Hours active use on 2 x AA cells.
(It has a NEC V30 cpu... )
The II is a thick 'calculator' shape, and the Series 3c is clamshell.
(Both can be seen on my website)
Why use Li-ion batteries?
(It's much easier to use AA or AAAs.)
USB-port?
I assume that is using some sort of USB-serial chip to turn the PDA into a slave device, not to access USB memorysticks and such, right?
What I would want of ports is a serial/USB connector for synching with a PC(can also use BT), SD for storage and some sort of printer port. Maybe using the mechanism from a printing calculator.
Anyway, the two biggest hurdles I see is keyboard and file formats.
(As far as I see it, the programs we need built-in is a text-editor, agenda, database, spreadsheet, and probably a built-in scripting language, possibly a BASIC dialect with functions to access the built-in file formats)
Edit:
There's not that many pictures of them on my new site, yet(I'm a slacker), so see the Psion section on my old site:
http://home.c2i.net/trygveh/english/gadgetman/pocket/psion/index.html
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Post Edited (Gadgetman) : 8/2/2007 7:59:01 PM GMT
They're wired in a matrix of 5*12, and their layout are like a Swedish keyboard (not all of the keys)
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I meant a "mold", sorry. So hot resin can be used to create individual keys, by molding. Those keys later actuate over a pushbutton when pressed. Every key is kept in position via a placeholder. Many CASIO calcs have rubber keys, not bad, but difficult to replicate :-( Cheap CASIO calcs have individual keys... I never got to buy one just to rip the keys. For few crowns you get some so-so keys, but could be a start.
At www.hpmuseum.org there are some pictures of this technology. I'll try to post some pictures of my HP-67 showing the keyboard assembly. I know the Norwegian kbd, I suppose the Swedish can not be too different, or ?
1) the formats are well documented - the TIxx guide from ticalc.org has a byte for byte break down of each format including packet transmission and file formats
2) there are enough data types to cover all the things I think I'll need
the format includes, strings, text (as in a text file), lists, tables ( each list becomes a column), matrixes, pictures (monochrome), expressions (numbers, algebraic foumulas etc), and others
3) I've already starting writing the TI-92 datatype library in spin. This project is what got me thinking about the idea of a portable computer. Once I started understanding the file formats that the TI uses I realized how easy it would be to build a fullly functioning computer with it.
I hadn't considered using basic as the programming language, I've been thinking that spin would be the main programming language. Howver, but we could extend the femto basic interpreter to be able to read/write to the variable types provided by the TI-92 library I'm writing with relative ease. Imagine being able to
Declare x as new Expression
x.Val = "ab+cd"
PRINT x.Eval()
Hmmm, I can see the value in that. We'd need a real memory manager for this to be possible though. At this point I've been just creating a large stack[noparse][[/noparse]200], and then trying (sometimes unsuccesfully) to keep track of free memory space in the stack for dynamic allocation. One of the issues I've been having is that many times $00 is valid data. I was going to use STRSIZE for determining memory bounds, but this approach is failing because of this. This means we need a memory allocation table... more code i have not had time to write. Still, once this is done, it will make some really cool apps possilble.
Its still definitely a work in progress, but I'll post what I have. I'll also include my generic queue object.
There both written to use only DAT section variables so everywhere the object is included it is really referencing the same object. Change the filename if you want a different queue or pool.
While I did some testing on them and think most of the kinks are worked out, I haven't used them in a major project yet...so use with care. Let me know if you find any problems. I definitely want these both to work rock solid.
Why not use an old Cell Phone as all of the IO. Like the Moto V551. They are going for arround $50 on ebay.
I happen to have a couple of them arround. They have a 3.6v battery, charge circuitry, a keyboard, and descent screen.
Hopefully, the screen is documented somewhere.
As for storage, I would suggest MicroSD. I have been using one with Femto Basic without a hitch.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Doug
Maybe if we were talking about making a limited number of PDAs, but not if we want it to be possible to build more later on.
What we need to find is a good way to MAKE our own keyboards.
(How many keys everyone wants may be subject to the whims of the users. I need the full Norwegian alphabet - 29 chars - on mine, others may be satisfied with a T9-type solution. That should all be possible to deal with in Spin)
As for screen, I think the way to go is a text-based LCD. At least in the beginning. That way it is possible to test the system fully. Later it can be 'expanded' into graphical or colour as needed.
SD or Micro-SD isn't important as these behave similarly anyhow.
Anyway, a local shop sells bags of 'plastic beads' that you melt in hot water and form into whatever shape you want. It should be good for making casings.
(The stuff may be available in hobby and craft shops. I found it in a Clas Ohlson store which is a Swedish chain with stores in the Nordic countries)
As for file formats, mentioned earlier, I haven't had time to look at the TI-format yet, but how to store strings and such isn't the big issue.
What is the BIG issue is how to organise TODO-lists, build an Agenda file and such.
(We have timed events, recurring timed events, events that spans multiple days, anniversaries and so on. There's also the question of unique signatures on each item if someone is ever going to create synch software)
I'll see if I can dig out the lowdown on Psion AGN-files from their Series 3 range. That Agenda is by many considered 'the best ever'.
We don't want anything less, do we?
We also need to consider questions like:
Do we want multiple TODO and Agenda files?
Can we just 'tag' each item with an extra code to mark it as belonging to separate lists?
What about adding a FRAM chip to store data?
Ramtron has a 512Kbit(64KB) model
http://www.ramtron.com/doc/Products/Nonvolatile/Nonvolatile_Memory.asp?ID=112&gr=5
With one of those, the Agenda part can cache the calendar items and allow the user to swap SD-card if needed, and not miss any appointments.
Edit: Added a zipped description of the Psion AGN-format.
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Post Edited (Gadgetman) : 8/3/2007 11:41:58 AM GMT
Do we NEED Prop2 compatibility, or would it be better to do this when the P2 arrives?
(As the P2 looks set to have built-in IDE of some sort... )
It would make creating scripts 'on the fly' possible without going through BASIC.
As for using a socketed DIP version of the Propeller won't make it any easier to upgrade to the P2 as it needs another voltage regulator and has a lot more pins. That means the upgrade module will be big. Do you want to waste space for it?
(I would like to build it to fit in a thick 'bracer' on my arm... This means that the thickest part defines the overall thickness of the 'bracer', and that is currently the AAA cells, or possibly the LCD assembly. )
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that part of the bracer sounds interesting... similar to a mp3 placer holder, or more like the "wrist-computer" in the Galactica series (1980)/wrist computers depicted in linuxdevices ?
There is also a so-so photo of the calculator (HP-67) and a key.
I came across the idea of using one of those portable digital media players.
There's a unit being sold at one of the local computer shops for a $150. (I suspect
that price is inflated a bit, due to his purchase of them last Christmas) -- The
unit has a color 3.5" screen, an SD slot, USB communication, and TV IN/OUT.
Looking at Ebay, I see several smaller units for around $30
Oldbitcollector
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The comments and code above are proof that a million monkeys with a million propeller chips *could* write Shakespeare!
I was thinking, not exacly about a wrist-computer, but further up the arm.
Imagine it as a wide, thick bracelet with the LCD across the width, keyboard underneath that, and SD-card slot and other connectors along the edge.
The keyboard may need to be a section that is hinged and folds down.
(So that the keyboard part is on the inside of a section of 'outer layer' to protect it)
Unfortunately, to make this possible I need to be able to make a thin, curved keyboard.
Something like the membrane keyboard that's used on the Sinclair ZX81 would have been stellar, but how to produce them?
It may be more advantageous to make it more like crawler-tracks, that is, flat sections that are hinged together.
Then one section may open and have two rows of keys on the top, and two rows on the bottom. But they still need to be thin...
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Great idea, I have been looking for a PDA with specific requirments that I need. Pic support, Blutooth to communicate with my Beo-bot, SD card support, Word, Excel, and a connector for my thumb drive, most important.
I have been working on my next project so this one has been on the back burner for a while.
I am glad to hear that someone has been thinking about this, keep me posted about your progress !
Rob 7
http://palmorb.sourceforge.net/
This appears to be a best a both worlds approach that could make the prop more portable, but also gives you access to large amount of already built software for the palm. Essentially, the prop could connect via serial and act as an expansion or IO card for your pilot.
Oldbitcollector
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The comments and code above are proof that a million monkeys with a million propeller chips *could* write Shakespeare!
It has a 640x480 screen, and a 3.3v serial port.
If I could rewrite Loader.py into tcl, (there is eTcl for the Axim) to make a program that will load the prop, and then switch to console mode interperating everything comming back from the serial port as tcl commands, I can then have full GUI capability driven by the prop, and the TCL canvas object would let me do graphics.
If then I could get propasm.jar to work on the axim, then I will have a complete development platform in the palm of my hand.
Oh, I forgot to mention, it has 5v output as well, but I have no idea how much current I could draw on this one, so I think I will just leave it alone.
The Axim does Word and Excell allready.
Some further down-the-road projects:
PS/2 keybaord and mouse ports on the prop with drivers for the axim to accept them for other apps. (Those bluetooth keyboards are expensive)
MicroSD Slots on the prop with pass through driver for access to the axim.
GPS pass through driver so I would never have to unplug the prop.
check out ebay item number 170036557330
Attached schematic and pics of a simple prop pcb the same size as·the old·128x160 oled module from 4D Systems.
Sorry about the fuzzy pics, must get a camera with a macro lens one day
There is now·new versions of these oled modules from 4D, they have sockets for transflash/microSD cards.
Simple serial input with onboard commands to speed up displaying stuff.
I have the 96x64 and 128x160 oleds, I may get one of the new 128x128s as well.
4D even have an interesting 240x320 LCD with a trackball connector.
The micro trackball from Sparkfun could be used instead of a keyboard?
3D Accellerometers used as gesture input? Freescale has a new SPI version.
I have thought of a few formats for a microPDA.
1) Old pocket watch style, flip open with a watch chain so you dont lose it[noparse]:)[/noparse]
2) Watch/bracelet style, wide band, 3 sections, one for lithium polymer cell, one for display and one for micro.
Could use supermagnets as joiners/connectors, add on bracelet sections like keyboards/MP3·just clip on.
Pull off wrist and it could fold up many ways. Comms between modules SPI or short range IR, near field RF?