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Omnidirectional wheels — Parallax Forums

Omnidirectional wheels

MightorMightor Posts: 338
edited 2007-08-03 18:42 in Robotics
Hi there,

I came across this little video on Youtube, here, and thought that it would be pretty cool to build something like that. Does anyone know where I could get those diagonally oriented omnidirectional wheels? I am look something in the 3-4cm diameter range. I have seen the other kind with the non-diagonal sub-wheels here, but they'd be too easy to push sideways and probably wouldn't work with more than 3 wheels anyway.

Gr,
Mightor

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| What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.

Comments

  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-29 17:20
    I don't know, but that is a really cool video. I'll keep my eyes and ears open and maybe do a little searching. The ones you show are Acroname aren't they?

    By the way, how is it that your designation changes - where it normally says forum moderator or registered member - yours always has something interesting. My favorite was unstable element. Are the Parallax guys messing around with you?

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 7/29/2007 5:30:50 PM GMT
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-29 17:28
    Could be, I found them on a UK website, no mention of their make. Here's where you can find them. I'd love to get them a smidge smaller even, like 3cms diameter. I think it would be awesome to make a mini-sumo based on something like this. I bet it hasn't been done before [noparse]:)[/noparse] I just tried to fit those 4 cm wheels in a 120 degree configuration inside a 10x10cms box (on paper) but that leaves practically no space for the motors/servos, hehe. Putting these in a standard 4 wheel configuration would end up in a mini-sumo that can be pushed around far too easily. I wonder, though, what kind of traction you'd get with the 120 degrees setup.

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-29 18:11
    Whit said...
    By the way, how is it that your designation changes - where it normally says forum moderator or registered member - yours always has something interesting. My favorite was unstable element. Are the Parallax guys messing around with you?
    Nah, I am messing around with it. This time I thought I'd be really original and use my actual name [noparse]:)[/noparse] Who knows what tomorrow might bring though.

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-29 19:06
    I found this interesting PDF on Robot Locomotion. They seem to call the type of wheel a Swedish 45 degree type. I still haven't found them.undefinedundefinedSee attached document.

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 7/29/2007 7:19:29 PM GMT
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-29 19:17
    Whit said...
    I found this interesting PDF on Robot Locomotion. They seem to call the type of wheel a Swedish 45 degree type. I still haven't found them.

    Whit,

    I think you forgot to attach said doc, but I get the feeling I saw that pdf already. The term swedish 45 degree thing sounds very familiar. I believe it was someone's thesis. I read through it quickly. I think machining something like that would be pretty tricky. Especially considering I don't even have access to a CNC machine.

    Edit: seems you've attached it now [noparse]:)[/noparse]
    Edit: Hrmm, gonna have to find a way to view this now. I don't have any kind of office-like program installed (yet).

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
    | "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
    | - Alice from Dilbert
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-29 19:19
    Mightor said...
    I think you forgot to attach said doc,
    I couldn't upload the whole PDF. The·page is now attached above.

    Here is the link to the complete PDF - http://autonomousmobilerobots.epfl.ch/doc/Slides2.pdf

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 7/29/2007 7:24:08 PM GMT
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-29 19:27
    Whit said...
    Mightor said...

    I think you forgot to attach said doc,
    I couldn't upload the whole PDF. The page is now attached above.



    Here is the link to the complete PDF - http://autonomousmobilerobots.epfl.ch/doc/Slides2.pdf
    I used Google Docs to read it. It's not the same doc as I saw earlier this evening but they're the same kind of wheels. They look pretty sweet [noparse]:)[/noparse] Some nice other robots in there too. I like the SHRIMP a lot.

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
    | "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
    | - Alice from Dilbert
  • FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
    edited 2007-07-30 02:46
    andymark.biz/am-0083.html
    also
    http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=mecanum

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    Post Edited (Franklin) : 7/30/2007 3:03:16 AM GMT
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-30 03:43
    Thanks Franklin but $375 is not something I will be able to sneak past my wife, especially not for just 4 wheels [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
    | "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
    | - Alice from Dilbert
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-30 11:43
    Mightor said...but $375 is not something I will be able to sneak past my wife, especially not for just 4 wheels [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Execellent point! I'm still looking...


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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-30 21:21
    The PDF is from this website - http://autonomousmobilerobots.epfl.ch/
    which is based on this book - Introduction to Autonomous Mobile Robots by Roland Siegwart and Illah R. Nourbakhsh -
    http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?sid=19A582C1-8F4C-44B3-9108-96F2DDB530E7&ttype=2&tid=10138

    It is pretty interesting stuff. Someone is bound to make an inexpensive wheel like this.

    Here is a PDF about the robot (see figure 8)·in the you tube video, I believe - http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/papers/1999-EyeBot-Family.pdf

    They are called Mecanum Wheels - this slide has a little history - http://www.ese.upenn.edu/ee442/0405/0405posters/Group%201%20Poster.ppt

    Still can't find a one though!

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 7/30/2007 10:05:05 PM GMT
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-31 03:59
    Doesn't the shiny aluminium make it look totally bad-***? I love that machined look. "My kingdom for a CNC machine!" If only I had a kingdom in the first place.

    Thanks for all the links though. You must've been doing some serious detective work [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Edit: The picture has been removed, it looked a little Smile.

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
    | "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
    | - Alice from Dilbert
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2007-07-31 04:10
    Well I just happen to have a four axis CNC mill! It would be fun trying to make some of those wheels - if only I knew where to get the little rubber rollers....
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-31 05:28
    Mightor said...
    Doesn't the shiny aluminium make it look totally bad-***?
    It really does. They must be custom made.
    W9GFO said...
    Well I just happen to have a four axis CNC mill! It would be fun trying to make some of those wheels - if only I knew where to get the little rubber rollers....
    Here they are http://www.andymark.biz/am-0084.html·Of course you need 12 @ $5 a piece for each wheel.

    That is to make a set of wheels like these sold for $375 - http://www.andymark.biz/am-0083.html

    Plus check out the assembly instructions·http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-33833170891817/MecanumWheelAssemblyInstructions.pdf

    And, these don't look nearly as cool as the one in the you tube video.

    Two other interesting links on the bot in the you tube video.

    Eye Bot site - http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/eyebot/doc/index.html

    http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/eyebot/doc/robots/omni.html·- Check out the video here (with sound) - the wheels even sound good.

    And this is the book, Embedded Robotics by Thomas Bräunl,·linked on the page above -http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/eyebot/doc/emro.html

    Wonder if Parallax has ever done any Omni-wheel work?


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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 7/31/2007 1:17:22 PM GMT
    352 x 376 - 18K
  • D FaustD Faust Posts: 608
    edited 2007-07-31 14:18
    I think that they are so expensive because only a few companies bought the right to use them from the navy.· (See wkipedia page for "mecanum wheels")

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    D Faust
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-07-31 14:26
    Thanks Faust! You are probably right. There was a good article in this month's Servo magazine about using the patent office for ideas. Hobbiest can build copies of anything patented for their own use - we aren't selling them - but as you say, that is most likely why no·one else is making them for sale.

    The wiki entry is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel
    It includes a great link for a Fork Lift like the Navy is using in tight spaces, so...

    Take a test drive! - http://www.airtrax.com/

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 7/31/2007 2:39:17 PM GMT
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2007-07-31 14:39
    D Faust said...
    I think that they are so expensive because only a few companies bought the right to use them from the navy. (See wkipedia page for "mecanum wheels")

    The patent has expired (see the same wikipedia page), so it isn't that folks haven't bought the rights, but that there are just not many people making them on a small scale. Looking at the wheels offered, they are probably not high volume movers (see comments on control below), and the company needs to recover the costs of tooling for the stamped hubs. This also jacks up the price.

    Other sources for rollers might be a "bearing house" or possibly and "arts and crafts" store - look in the beads area. I don't know if they would have plastic, but I've seen wooden beads that are the right shape.

    Control of these things is not for the faint of heart either. You're going to need some form of feedback, probably both on actual wheel speed (or use stepper motors), and also on actual movement (possibly accelerometers??).

    Any variation in speed or slip, and the robot will be wandering off in an unanticipated direction and/or rotating about the central axis.

    The concept is more than a little intriguing, and I may take a shot at making some out in the wood shop once I've got a couple other things squared away (meaning winter or possibly next year).

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    John R.
    Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2007-07-31 15:58
    Whit said...
    Here they are http://www.andymark.biz/am-0084.html Of course you need 12 @ $5 a piece for each wheel.

    Yikes! $60 per wheel and they're not even tapered - I don't think so.
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-31 16:28
    W9GFO said...
    Whit said...
    Here they are http://www.andymark.biz/am-0084.html Of course you need 12 @ $5 a piece for each wheel.

    Yikes! $60 per wheel and they're not even tapered - I don't think so.
    I can think of much better ways to spend $60 (on robot stuff, of course). Some day I'd like to have a USB oscilloscope and some other handy tools.

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
    | "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
    | - Alice from Dilbert
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2007-07-31 16:38
    Whit said...
    By the way, how is it that your designation changes

    Click on "Control Panel", "Edit Options". From there you can put in a custom user title to replace "Registered Member".
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-31 19:22
    I get the feeling that mecanum wheels will, at least for now, be no more than the stuff of dreams [noparse]:)[/noparse] I can just image how hard it would be to duel a robot with the ability to move arbitrarily in any direction it chooses without needing to actually turn. If only they made them in 3-4cms diameter...

    I think I might play around with one of those holonomic drives some time soon, using the normal Omniwheels, at least I can get those at slightly less than $OMGWTH and I'll only need 3 wheels, not four! Such savings!

    Gr,
    Mightor

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    | What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
    | "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
    | - Alice from Dilbert
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-08-01 02:21
    W9GFO,

    Yeah, I figured out what Mightor was doing. After he said it was him doing it - I went looking.

    Mightor,

    I guess we will have to dream. I found a good article during my search using a normal omniwheel for a tail wheel. Don't stop dreaming though.

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
  • medelmanmedelman Posts: 21
    edited 2007-08-03 14:43
    Have any of you seen these? They might be a little cheaper at around 14 dollars each, but yet still provide the same functionality to some degree?

    http://www.omniwheel.com/robot-wheels.htm

    Here's a video of them in action as well..

    http://www.kornylak.com/images/video/MinhoVideo.mpeg

    Matt
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2007-08-03 15:08
    Matt,

    Thanks! I have seen those. I guess I don't have a good idea how the 3 wheel system with these works. The 4 wheel system with diagonal rollers intuitively makes sense. They are like screws. I can't picture exactly how these work. Does anyone know of an article that describes how this works. I will do a little looking myself too.

    Later entry - Just found this http://www-scf.usc.edu/~csci445/CS445_final_contest/CS445_FA04contest_RobotSoccer/Locomotion/omni_4wheel_encoders/omni_drive.pdf
    Now I get it. With wheels on the each side of a triangle, two wheels on adjacent sides turn in opposite directions toward the rear (which ever point at the time will the rear) point of the triangle. These two "screws" push the robot away from the direction they are turning. They can also pull to make the robot move in the opposite direction. The rollers on the wheels don't need to be at 45 degrees, because the orientation of the wheels are at an angle to one another. Pretty neat.

    Mightor,
    Nice Avitar.

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 8/3/2007 7:10:15 PM GMT
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2007-08-03 17:47
    Now that's a good find. You could buy three of these and have enough rollers to make four wheels - for less than $50!

    fxa156-s.jpg

    I have sent them an email inquiring about purchasing just the rollers....
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2007-08-03 18:42
    Note that you'll have to taylor the design of the weel to match the rollers.· I haven't worked out the specifics yet, but basically the tangent of the roller surfaces should ideally lie on a sphere centered vertically·on the axle, and latterally on the contact point for the Mecanum wheels.

    Obviously, based on the versions that AndyMark sells (they appear to use cylindrical rollers, not spherical) this doesn't have to be perfect.

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    John R.
    Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
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