Hydra 2.0

RedNifre

So, will there be a successor someday?

I'm dreaming of a "game boy"- like version of the Hydra, being shaped like a game boy, running on battery, color screen, minimum ports to keep the cost low etc.
What would YOU like it to be?

Dennis Ferron

Yes the Hydra 1 could definitely be made into a portable. They kind of used more parts than strictly necessary; the Hydra board is already small but it could have left off some things and used a surface mount chip instead of DIP.

I want to see a Hydra 2 using the second generation Propeller chip, when it comes out. Maybe also ethernet-enabled, like the YBox. My guess is that the 2nd generation Propeller will have enough MIPS to handle some 3-d rendering.

Given the great progress that has been made with software to use SD cards with the Propeller, I'd also like to see the Hydra 2 have an SD card slot. You could store games on SD cards instead of EEPROM; the "cartridge" slot could really be just an expansion slot.

On second thought, it would be really neat if the next Hydra had the exact same cartridge slots as the current one, so that it could be backwards compatible with all the current expansion cards. Some backwards compatibility for games would be nice too.

CardboardGuru

Well you could always develop games for the actual Gameboy. There are plenty of development tools out there to do so. And hardware to program carts from your PC. You get a much slower chip and none of the multiprocessor goodness of the propellor, but you do get hardware scrolling tile maps and sprites.

From the hints Andr

RedNifre

Aw, more homecomputer/consoles? Why? The Hydra seems perfect, I miss nothing. I don't think that I'd buy another console, what would be the point? The next console might be more powerful, but if I wanted a powerful console I'd buy a Playstation.

But a portable would be great. If you had a portable with an SD slot EVERYTHING would be possible:
- turn it into an mp3 player
- view photos
- write BASIC-programs on the go
- an 8 GiB SD card could hold the entire Wikipedia. It would be a Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy!
- and MUCH more

I don't know what the next propeller will be like, but I guess that it won't be that hard to port the propeller 1 games to the new one.

This is the minimum it should have (just my opinion, might change over time ):
- color display
- NES/Game Boy like buttons
- ear phone plug (speaker not really necessary in my eyes)
- SD slot
- network plug like Hydra
- Case! (I prefer brick-shape like the original Game Boy, but that should be decided in a poll or something...)

Maybe it should be sold in to different packages: Deluxe like the Hydra package and bare minimum for those who already own a Hydra set...

Damien Allen

I think Andre' at some point was developing a handheld system but decided it was too costly and would require external funding, of which Andre' isn't a big fan of I believe. Now i'm not totally sure if this was a development system or a straight forward gameboy/psp competitor. someone please correct me if i'm wrong. Now if you want more information on Andre's future projects like the xGamestation or the Hydra check out his forums there are already quite a few threads on them.

Damo

Dennis Ferron

Even if it is too expensive for there to be an "official" portable Hydra made, it should still be possible for a hobbyist to make something like RedNifre described, using the Propeller protoboard as a starting point. If a "bare" LCD is used, instead of an LCD TV, then the Hydra games would have to be ported to run - the TV objects would have to be rewritten to use the LCD instead. I think that would not be as hard as it sounds.

*Can* the Propeller play MP3s?

mahjongg

Making a "portable LCD Hydra" is an interesting idea.

There are many types of hardware interfaces for graphic color LCD's, some use the SPI port which make them more or less incompatible with the Propeller (at least with the "TV hardware" of the Propeller). But there are also LCD's that use an interface that is more or less compatible with a VGA port. LCD's with a composite video input also exist, but are often developed for camera's etc and hard to buy for normal consumers.

The problem with the "portable LCD HYDRA" is that the Hydra is a game development system, it's was never intended to be a "gameboy replacement", and although the games that are possible with it are nice, and will become nicer with the new memory expansion system, it is still quite underpowered compared with most other portable gaming systems.

Decoding MP3's with it will be quite hard i'm afraid, and perhaps impossible.

If you are looking for a handheld for which you can develop games of "gameboy advance" quality, and which can be used as an MP3 player, then I suggest you to buy A GP2X from GamePark (I did, I am waiting for mine to arrive).
It's a portable media player and game system that uses simple multi-media-flash cards as storage and a Linux based operating system. For gaming it has it's own commercial games, but there are many emulators for it ranging from a commode 64, to gameboy advance, but you can also run old DOS games such as DOOM and Duke Nukem 3D. The GP2X also plays movies in many formats.
You can find more information here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gp2x

Mahjongg

AndreL

The problem is the LCD is VERY VERY VERY expensive, $20-25 for color of a decent resolution in q1000 units. And that means that just for the LCD, the unit cost is now $100 to make a retail product, and with the rest of parts about $50 for 100-1000 runs, so that means that the retail cost is $300.

And a game boy is $50 or a GBA $79/99 ish. But, the point of these things is not to compete, but to give you things to play with, so apple's and oranges really. -- To get the price break we need for a LCD, color based system, and PLASTICS around it, we need to do 5,000 - 10,000 units to make any kind of ROI really. And that's a lot of unfront manufacturing of a pretty expensive device. Of course, there are many ways to skin a cat, for example, you hunt for someone that needs to dump 1000 color LCDs that have built in controllers and or parallel buses, or very fast, and they will sell for $5-10, then maybe you use another controller, canibalize, and have your manufacture rip it apart, cut into it, put the LCD, sandwich it, make it thicker, but for 1000 units MUCH cheaper than a mold and injection plastics, so if I KNEW I could sell 1000 of them at say $149, I would definitely do a propeller based handheld with LCD, memory, sd card reader. Someone make an order and I will make the unit [noparse]:)[/noparse] I am always keeping my eye out for a way to do a cheap handheld, who knows maybe I am working on one right now... But, the LCD and plastics hurt you $$$ wise to build them.

However, I am working on a another game console, retro again, will be a lot of fun, different market that the hydra, more like the xgamestation stuff, so we will see how that does.

But, I will tell you what if chip finishes the Propeller 2 anytime soon, I will do a game system for that definitely.

Andre'

Forrest

Andre',

Maybe you ought to contact Curt Vendel, who designed the Atari Flashback 2 and is now working on a portable Flashback 2 that contains a 2600 on a chip, 2.5 inch active matrix LCD with backlight and a USB connection for $40 www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79421. I wonder if you could fit a Hydra into that case?

Forrest

AndreL

Curt is a friend, the dev for that will be hundreds of american K, for Atari to make that work they will have to sell 1,000,000 units of sales in the bag. Even if I could use the device, we would have to wait for it to be done---forever, more or less,then buy from Atari, or consumate a deal, NEAR impossible with Atari stuff. I tried for the XGS to do a deal with the flashback joysticks, over 1 year later they kept saying, next week, next week, thank GOD I didn't give them any money until the product was in hand -- which they never delivered. So I might be able to get the things for $20 a unit at 100-1000 units, then we have to ship them to china, $$$$ for shipping, we have to rip the things apart (labor), put the hydra / propeller stuff into it, then re-package, ship back from china, re-sell. And again, you have to retail for 3-4x the cost to make a penny, so that would still put us in the $200+ range, and that's if you can make it all work. But, just playing devils advocate, sometimes you can get a sweet deal on something sure...

But, this is definitely a way to do things, use another piece of hardware that has the controller and LCD and then re-fit it with your stuff. The problem is being able to buy enough of them to get the price down, and of course, the labor sometimes might be so much to rip, cut, redo, it might not be worth it --

That said, these kinds of things I am looking for all the time. But, then its like why rip out the chip that's already in it? For example, we could get 500 GB color's, they would work perfect, then we rip the board and the PCB out and use the plastics and LCD. But, then you are wrecking a perfectly good GBC [noparse]:)[/noparse]

But, just having a simplified propeller or other microcontroller based handheld with an LCD is cool, I agree. I just need to have 1000 people ready to buy it, then I would do it.

Andre'

RedNifre

To bad I'm not 1000 people. :-(

Lawson

who needs fancy plastics? Something shaped like a GBA with no plastic case, everything glued to the main board, no sharp edges, and the conductive bits covered would be cool! Kinda like having a 'naked' style motorcycle [noparse]:)[/noparse] only pocket able.

RedNifre

Nah!

It is okay, that the Hydra has no case, because it is in my secure home. But a portable needs a case, because it should realy be carryaroundable.

mahjongg

the cheapest solution for a color graphics LCD would be to use refurbished LCD's developed for GSM telephones, which can be had for $10-$15 in low quantities.
Problem with them is that they often are cumbersome to interface, mechanically and electronically.

Mechanically, beacuse they often use very small SMT connectors, such as those from (a.o.) JAE, mounted on a slip of flexible PCB.
Electronically because they often use exotic interfaces with undocumented protocols.

Nevertheless they are popular with electronic hobbyists because they often have unbeatable price/performance ratio's.

One popular unit is the Nokia 3310, which uses the SPI bus for interfacing.

There are many places where you can find info and drivers for it.

like the one here:

www.microsyl.com/nokialcd/nokialcd.html

Mahjongg.

Dennis Ferron

Oh absolutely. If there were just one common type of display, you could grab displays from junk cell phones, cameras, etc. You could make the kit and let the user install the the display from an old cell phone. But with so many different types, you can't just crack the problem once and share the same solution with everyone. You have to do it custom for each one. The Nokia display is about the closest you can come to a common format. And I think you can also get them for $20 from sparkfun.