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What is the best DK? — Parallax Forums

What is the best DK?

FredMFredM Posts: 5
edited 2007-04-24 01:26 in Propeller 1
Hi, I was advised to look at this Propeller chip and it seems absolutely great - I want to get the best development kit I can, as I have some serious projects which need extra computing power (am using the Cypress PSoC at present, which is a superb part for mixed-signal work, but not fast on actual computing). Is the Hydra any good as a general development platform? (I have no interest in game development) - My applications range from motor control (commutation etc) for electric vehicles to musical instruments and studio equipment (Synthesisers with 'workstation' functions requiring reasonable graphic displays, MIDI controlled analogue mixers etc).

I want a DK which covers as much as possible, or more than one if this is required - I will need to master this chip, so perhaps something which eases the learning curve, and something else for real development ?·

Any advice, help or opinions welcome. Cost is not a major concern.

Regards,
Fred.

·

Comments

  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-04-21 04:42
    For real development, nothing beats the Protoboard 5-pack, with or without the Accessory Kit. Do get an SD card breakout board from SparkFun (www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php) so you can store data and programs on the PC-compatible SD card. For learning from a hardware and software perspective, get a Propeller Education Kit. If you're already very experienced in hardware, get a Demo Board, but also use the tutorials for the Education Kit which are downloadable. The Demo Board has a built-in microphone and analog to digital converter for that and a stereo digital to analog converter with headphone amplifier. There are some neat speech synthesis demos with spatial synthesis routines for the stereo outputs that you can download.

    The Hydra is a nice package with a plug-in expansion card, but you can't really use the expansion I/O with a VGA display and the game controller interface ties up I/O pins that you could use for your own I/O needs. If you're not going to do game development, the Demo Board has some advantages (a little breadboard, some uncommitted I/O pins, and the mono ADC/stereo DAC).
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-04-21 04:47
    Your interest in musical instruments makes me think the Demo Board might be a better fit since it has a stereo amplifier built in compared to the Hydra's mono output. You will likely need a high I/O pin count for further projects, so the ProtoBoard or PropStrick USB would be good on that front. Of course you could get all of the DKs since they are a one time cost [noparse]:)[/noparse].

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
  • FredMFredM Posts: 5
    edited 2007-04-21 05:16
    Sadly, much as I wish the opposite was true, my 'bread and butter' comes from motor power control designs and not from musical instruments - I/O count is often critical.. so I will probably go for the protoboard - 5 pack ? (cant seem to find this or the accessory kit/s) and a
    starter kit.. I had not really thought about doing the synthesis much on the Propellor - I have a unique sheme for doing analogue additive synthesis, which (to me anyway) sounds far better than any digital synthesis I have heard - Even though the instruments tell me that I have no scientific basis for what I am expieriencing! ..

    Will keep my options open for now - but want to get started ASAP, so will probably be ordering early next week.

    Thanks for the advice - I am astounded at how quickly I got a response, and how many people are at this site.

    Regards,
    Fred.
  • FredMFredM Posts: 5
    edited 2007-04-21 05:33
    Oh - One thing I forgot to ask.. In-Circuit-Emulation.. Is there an ICE available for the Prop? (I imagine it would be quite a complex task to do real ICE with an architecture like Propeller - but to be honest, I dont think I have yet fully comprehended the implications of this archetecture)

    Fred.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2007-04-21 08:19
    Debugging (especially of Spin code) is a weak aspect of the Propeller, IMHO.

    Leon

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    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2007-04-21 08:25
    Hi Fred,

    No ICE.

    There is a simulator:

    GEAR http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&p=1&m=164602

    and a debug monitor that runs on the cog, but it uses some cog resources

    POD http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=178997

    both are useful tools.

    Best,

    Bill
    FredM said...
    Oh - One thing I forgot to ask.. In-Circuit-Emulation.. Is there an ICE available for the Prop? (I imagine it would be quite a complex task to do real ICE with an architecture like Propeller - but to be honest, I dont think I have yet fully comprehended the implications of this archetecture)

    Fred.
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    www.mikronauts.com - a new blog about microcontrollers
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-04-21 14:20
    Follow the links for the Protoboard and its accessory kit (marked NEW!). There's a link on the Protoboard page for the 5-pack.

    Because the Propeller has 8 independent processors and it's rare that all 8 are in use, most debugging is done using the Propeller itself with one or more cogs (processors) running a debugger like POD or just running a keyboard/display routine, sometimes using an external serial LCD, sometimes using an attached TV or VGA display with the Propeller generating the video. It uses a couple of pins (3-4 for the display and 2 for the keyboard) and 2 cogs (1 for TV video and 1 for the keyboard) as well as some memory space for the screen buffer and the code.

    I've done most of my debugging this way, usually using a video monitor just for the debug output. If your program uses a display, there's no problem using a VGA and TV display or two separate TV displays simultaneously. Similarly, you can have two PS/2 keyboards. If you're using the Demo Board or Protoboard with the Accessory Kit, you can use the mouse PS/2 socket for a second keyboard if you're not using a mouse.
  • FredMFredM Posts: 5
    edited 2007-04-22 23:03
    Thanks Mike,
    I found the 5-Pack and accessories - this looks like a good deal..
    I have started to get my head round the Prop concept - think I will probably go for a simple setup to start.. Lack of ICE bothers me a bit, particularly as coding is in a new language + asm.. I have got used to using ICE extensively (particularly when not familiar with a processor) and been spoilt by the superb IDE / ICE for the Cypress PSoC. I love the concept of the PROPELLER, but SPIN looks extremely 'unfriendly' to me - particularly the enforced indentation aspect. I was thinking in terms of using PROP on my current (huge) project, but caution has prevailed, and I have now decided (after reading all the documentation I can find) that I need a long time to evaluate this chip before I decide for / against using it.. Also, the price is quite high compared to the 4 small PSoC's I am presently using.
    Regards,
    Fred
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-04-23 02:46
    There's a bit to get your head around. For example, someone was trying to debug a Propeller to Stamp interface and I cobbled together a Stamp simulator that ran in two cogs on the same Propeller as the rest of the program. It didn't simulate the whole Stamp, but did simulate the serial I/O and the command/response bits that eventually did go into a Stamp. You see, one cog can watch the output pins being manipulated by another cog and can set as outputs the same pins being used as an input to another cog.

    Anyway, it's really easy to add all kinds of instrumentation to your programs. POD makes it a lot easier if you're doing assembly stuff ... I "rolled" my own earlier.
  • FredMFredM Posts: 5
    edited 2007-04-24 00:32
    The description of the design process for the Propeller (that it was designed down/up to/from single transistor level) makes me think that Parallax must have full schematics / simulation models etc on file.. I use several electronic simulation packages, my favorite being Proteus (labcenter Electronics U.K.) which includes various MPU packages and can run full system simulation of of complex circuits complete with MPU (PIC, AVR etc)..
    It would be real nice to have a 'real' Propeller model which could be plugged into a simulation package like Proteus or even a SPICE model (hmmm .. perhaps not - By the time a SPICE simulation had completed, the chip would probably be antique..)
    The fact that program is contained in seperate EEPROM should simplify matters, as a model made from the Propeller hardware blocks should behave like the real thing..
    To me, Simulation which allows external components / systems to be connected and co-simulated is almost essential.. Without this, ICE is absolutely essential for anything but trivial projects.. Without either, I dont think I would be happy - still plan to have a play with the Propeller - but not quite as hopefull about it as I was.

    Thanks for all the replies.
    Must get back to plan A - will check in when I have some free time.
    Regards,
    Fred.
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-04-24 01:26
    You are correct, a subsystem takes minutes to simulate microseconds, the entire chip would take a supercluster to simulate. We would never release an exact logical simulation of the chip because this would provide a blueprint to anyone who wanted to copy the chip, beyond this with the overhead of an OS doing the simulation would still be far from real time.

    However this may be what you are looking for: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=624986

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
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