Developing 3-D video for use with the Propeller
LoopyByteloose
Posts: 12,537
About this time last year, the Propeller was announced.· Shortly thereafter, Chip mentioned that 3-D video display with a pair of anaphylactic anaglyphic glasses would be possible.· This posed the dilemma of where to get them.
Of recent, there are several 3-D movies being released in Taiwan [noparse][[/noparse]I presume globally] and I suspect the glasses will be easier to come by.
So...
Has anyone devoted thought or time to actually developing objects for 3-D video?· I suspect that this will be very popular as it can be used for 3-D graphic [noparse][[/noparse]a 3-D oscilloscope perchance]; gaming [noparse][[/noparse]3-D tic-tac-toe; a basic attention getter [noparse][[/noparse]trade show gimmick to attract people to your booth]; and much more.
I suspect the best is yet to come.
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"If you want more fiber, eat the package.· Not enough?· Eat the manual."········
Post Edited (Kramer) : 4/13/2007 2:34:46 PM GMT
Of recent, there are several 3-D movies being released in Taiwan [noparse][[/noparse]I presume globally] and I suspect the glasses will be easier to come by.
So...
Has anyone devoted thought or time to actually developing objects for 3-D video?· I suspect that this will be very popular as it can be used for 3-D graphic [noparse][[/noparse]a 3-D oscilloscope perchance]; gaming [noparse][[/noparse]3-D tic-tac-toe; a basic attention getter [noparse][[/noparse]trade show gimmick to attract people to your booth]; and much more.
I suspect the best is yet to come.
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"If you want more fiber, eat the package.· Not enough?· Eat the manual."········
···················· Tropical regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Post Edited (Kramer) : 4/13/2007 2:34:46 PM GMT
Comments
I've got a pair of the LCD shutter type, that work with an SGI. These could be used as well, though they are not cheap.
Another option would be the dual display ones, but RAM is tight... I've never had the chance to try these.
You can get glasses from these guys: http://www.movievisioninc.com/
There is one 3D object, and a demo of it moving here: http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=144641
The shutter ones do color, but require two bitmaps. The existing Parallax graphics code can easily handle two bitmaps, and alternate the display. Just modify the gr.copy function to the bitmap in question. Probably not enough RAM to double buffer though, unless resolution is really low and object defintion is also low.
If you are thinking of the red / blue kind, then the demo I linked to is essentially just lacking the 3D color elements to make it all work.
I do realize that color and movement are limited by the amount of available RAM, so it will be low resoluton [noparse][[/noparse]at least for now].
From what you say, there seem to be at least three kinds of glasses. I guess I should do some research
Thanks for the prompt reply.
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"If you want more fiber, eat the package.· Not enough?· Eat the manual."········
Steve
PS - They still sell both the classic and modern versions of the ViewMaster viewers.
Post Edited (Duffer) : 4/9/2007 6:16:34 PM GMT
%00: black or white ·(nothing)
%01: blue (right eye)
%10: red (left eye)
%11: grey (both eyes)
This way, two bits per pixel could pick one of the four display colors and cheap $.20 glasses could be used. Note that each of the two bits represent an eye's view.
The shutter glasses are more complicated and need a lot more light, but hold a neat possibility: rather than double-buffering the display image, you could close both shutters during an unbuffered redraw, then open one shutter for some milliseconds, close both shutters and redraw for the next eye, then open that shutter for some milliseconds, and repeat. So the glasses would get you around the double memory required to otherwise make a smooth display.
Some minor change could be made to graphics.spin to facilitate left and right drawing. It would basically just have to OR, instead of overwrite, two-bit pixels.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 4/9/2007 5:38:08 PM GMT
Your idea on the shutter glasses is an interesting one. I fear the display visible duty cycle would be too low though. When I used them at 30Hz on (60Hz divided by two for both eyes getting every other image) the SGI machine, they worked well, but not for too long. In that scenario, it boiled down to a quad buffered display. Flicker was up front and center, and caused fatigue in as little as a coupla minutes of viewing. Maybe a dim image, with low contrast colors would help with this element of things?
One interesting thing they did, was cut the vertical resolution in half to keep the overall display memory requirement down low. On that note...
Since this thread has ideas on it, another one I can think of would be to continue working on sprite type code. Objects then could be manupulated positionally, with the shutter glasses, giving a wide range of depth options in more color. Sub-pixel positioning would also make the most of the depth, while keeping display memory requirements to a minimum. A display driver that runs at 640x192, for example, could display lots of 160x96 images that could occupy any of the higher resolution positions, or perhaps fewer full resolution ones, or a combination. Instead of a bitmap, you get lots of movable objects. Running more than one cog, is gonna someday when the color sync issues get hammered out, allow for a background image and these movable ones to co-exist together on one display in a fashion similar to how older computers did things. For a lot of displays, just putting the pieces where you want them would consume less overall ram.
A scenario like this would be generated, on the fly, every frame, thus allowing for higher display refresh rates. If one can get the shutters over about 45Hz or so, with lower contrast images, fatigue drops substantially. With a television, perhaps just choosing well with colors and or constraining the depth to be reasonable would make for a great shutter experience.
Post Edited (potatohead) : 4/9/2007 6:44:50 PM GMT
Maybe, I will finally get a pair that are useable while stateside. I really would like to try 3-D tic-tac-toe or a 3-D scope.
In about 1983, there was a Dr. Trip in the Silicon Valley/ Redwood City area that had a field 3-D Xray table patented for army field hosipitals. That application used shuttered glasses. I was handed a copy of the patent and an investment proposal by a buddy of his. I guess MIR and helicopter field evacuation made the scheme pointless. But, it can be done.
To add a bit of mystery,· months later there was a story on San Francisco·evening news about his home research lab being shuttered because kids had gotten into some dangerous chemicals. The whereabouts of Dr. Trip were unknown.
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"If you want more fiber, eat the package.· Not enough?· Eat the manual."········
Post Edited (Kramer) : 4/13/2007 2:36:42 PM GMT
What will push all of this is using the Prop for 3D overlay purposes... the guy that is closest to doing this is Bean from Hitt Consulting. He is one step away from being able to offer synchronized stereo... with a 3D overlay. All he has to do is take two of his boards... add a little magic and the 3D world opens up. Of course we would all like him to do it on one board ... wouldn't we?
In terms of anaglyphic... red/blue is the natural choice... but red/green is the Universal favorite.
Bean will be able to synchronize his output to some $50 lcd shutters and we all get 3D TV.
Right now... we all need to support the Beaner[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rich