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UAV based on the Propeller — Parallax Forums

UAV based on the Propeller

BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
edited 2007-04-18 20:34 in Propeller 1
I am trying to create a UAV based on a propeller PIC.

Plan:
Take an R/C radio airplane and integrate a Propeller into the esign to steer the thing. Im going to use the GPS module in this project along with a Propeller Proto board

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"Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

Detective Spooner
iRobot
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Comments

  • parts-man73parts-man73 Posts: 830
    edited 2007-03-21 00:52
    I've been thinking about the same project. You don't happen to be in New York state do you? Projects "get off the ground" faster with help (lousy pun, I know)

    And airplanes naturally have Propellers!

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    Brian Meade

    "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night" - Edgar Poe
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-21 23:28
    Changed to R/C helicopter. Looking for suggestions.

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • simonlsimonl Posts: 866
    edited 2007-03-22 10:26
    Change back to airplane; it'll be MUCH simpler! LOL

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Actually I'm also in the extremely early investigative stages of doing a PChip UAV helicopter. I'm starting by taking a MEMSIC 2125 accelerometer and using that to do a two-wheel balance-bot (a la Nuts & Volts, but with teh MEMSIC at 45deg.)

    My biggest problem is that I've forgottent everything I ever learned about trigonometry (or I clearly wasn't paying attention in math's class all those years ago!).

    From the heaps of stuff I've read on the subject, I also know I'll need to code a Kalman Filter to fuse the sensor readings (gyro & accelerometer) but, again, it all looks Greek to me :-(

    A couple of websites you might be interested in:

    1. http://tom.pycke.be/

    2. http://www.dev6.com/

    Have fun, and keep us all posted.

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    Cheers,

    Simon

    BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style smile.gif
    www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
    You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-23 21:16
    Yeah I found out what heli im gonna use, The Falcon 3D CP Electric RC Helicopter from hobby-lobby

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-23 21:24
    Im using a Falcon 3D CP Electric RC Helicopter from hobby lobby. This is an electric heli which is what i think is the best to use. I am thinking I could use Latitude and Longitude cordinates from Google earth to set waypoints. I was thinking the GPS Appmod from parallax would tell the current position and the propeller would decide the what way it needed to go using the compass. Is that possible? Please write down any ideas.

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-24 02:22
    Ok. Im going to use the Falcon. I want it to be autonoumous and be able to be controlled using maybe bluetooth or something like it. I also want to be able to transmit a new flightpath to it in mid-flight. Either way i don't know how to have a video stream transmit to a wirless tv.

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-24 02:41
    This is the heli im using:
    at600.jpg

    This is the camera i will attach.


    this is the transmitter for the camera:

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-24 13:46
    Going to use the propstick to control it instead of the protoboard.

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-24 13:50
    Here is the Plan:
    I am trying to create a UAV helicopter based on a propeller PIC. Im using a Falcon 3D CP Electric RC Helicopter from hobby lobby. This is an electric heli which is what i think is the best to use. I am thinking I could use Latitude and Longitude cordinates from Google earth to set waypoints. I was thinking the GPS Appmod from parallax would tell the current position and the propeller would decide the what way it needed to go using the compass. Is that possible? Please write down any ideas.I want it to be autonoumous and be able to be controlled using maybe bluetooth or something like it. I also want to be able to transmit a new flightpath to it in mid-flight. Either way i don't know how to have a video stream transmit to a wirless tv. The length is 24 in. the flying weight is 20 oz. I wonder if it could handle the extra weight of a propstick, a GPS appmod, a video camera, and a transmitter. Plus I have to link up the current servos to the propstick. How would I do that? Then I need the propeller to be able to control the speed and height of the heli.

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,228
    edited 2007-03-24 15:39
    Bipedguy,

    While these things are all possible, I think they're only going to be accomplished by breaking them down into digestible pieces. There is going to be a lot of effort spent just·making the helicopter fly, at all. All these high-level sensors will have to be integrated at a layer above the how-to-stay-in-the-air algorithm. It's going to take you a few solid weeks, if not months, just getting the helicopter to reliably take off and land in the same place. Once that foundation is strong, you could feed it more abstract data, like where to go. Just keep the long-term goal in mind while you press through the details.

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    Chip Gracey
    Parallax, Inc.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2007-03-24 23:13
    There's one thing you should be aware of...

    GPS isn't allways accurate enough.
    The best accuracy you can expect with a handheld unit is 3meters(10' ) and that is if you're lucky and one of the WAAS satellites are available.(They send a signal to correct for drift in the other satellies, among other things)
    Without them, the best you can hope for is about 5meters.
    (I haven't studied the specifications of the Parallax appmod, but I doubt they're better. )

    That is 'best case' data. Normal accuracy without WAAS is 7 - 12meters, in my experience.

    Yes, GPS can be used, but you better make certain it also have other means of detecting what is around it.
    In other words, you probably want to add some sort of proximity detectors before you do too much else.
    (you will need them to enable the Propeller to land the uAV reliably)

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    Don't visit my new website...
  • parts-man73parts-man73 Posts: 830
    edited 2007-03-25 20:13
    Absolutely correct, you have to stand before you can walk, and walk before you run. You need to get it to hover first and foremost, then landing softly. Heli's act differently near the ground then they do at higher altitudes, this is known as "Ground Effect" so that needs to be taken into account.

    The accuracy of GPS also is a problem as Gadgetman correctly pointed out. You'll need another way to calculate position, and ground speed, so that you can stop it and hold a position, so that a successful landing can be made.

    A wide open field would be an ideal place to test all of this, navigation and obstacle avoidance will eventually come after this issues are sorted out.

    I wonder how the vibration inherent in a flying model helicopter would affect an accelometer? Learning to fly it by hand may be the first step. Perhaps you could fit it with an Xbee, bluetooth or whatever and and accelometer and download the data during flight.

    One last thought.... What kind of payload can a electric helicopter like this carry? Will it be strong enough to take off and fly normally with the extra added weight of all the sensors, GPS and antenna, and some type of circuit board for the Propeller to ride along on? You may need a larger gas powered model.

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    Brian Meade

    "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night" - Edgar Poe
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-03-25 20:27
    A final thing is that a helicopter is very dangerous, rotors in the face can be nasty you really have to know what you are doing.

    Graham
  • parts-man73parts-man73 Posts: 830
    edited 2007-03-25 21:10
    bipedguy said...
    Going to use the propstick to control it instead of the protoboard.

    What are you going to attach the propstick to? The protoboard may be a better choice. you could solder the accelometer and compass right to the protoboard, and it has handy connectors for servos. A propstick would need some type of circuitboard to mount it to anyway.

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    Brian Meade

    "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night" - Edgar Poe
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2007-03-26 07:18
    What kind of lifting capacity he gets depends on what kind of motor it has and the weight and type of the battery pack. (small battery = Less weight, more carrying-capacity, but shorter flight-time, large battery = more weight, less carrying capacity but longer flight-time).
    Brushless motors tends to have higher power/weight ratios, but are also more expensive.

    I'm working(on and off) on rebuilding a Silverlit X-UFO to fly autonomously, it has 4 small DC-motors, and with the standard 350mAh/12V Ni-mh pack, it gets about 50grams carrying-capacity and 5 minutes of flight-time.
    A 800mAh/7.2V Li-ion pack not only weights less(increasing carrying capacity with 10grams), but also gives it an extended flight-time.

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    Don't visit my new website...
  • GavinGavin Posts: 134
    edited 2007-03-26 10:58
    Yep, enclosed rotor system like the UFO would be better.
    You could used BLDC motors and get the prop to control the 3 phases of 4 motors.
    Converted CDROM motors and 3 cell lithium polymer battery
    SPI based 2/3D accel and gyro/compass.

    There is a guy in the UK making single rotor machines, ie McCutchen machine
    http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Whirlygig.htm
    Nice and simple to make.
    He has two motors one for upthrust twisting the rotor, the other for down? Both motors spin the motor in the same direction.
    Compass chip PWM controls motors, when blade is nearly opposite the direction of required travel the angle of attack is increased with the upthrust motor. Well that what I suspect he is doing from a few paragraphs in UK model mag.

    An IR led on the transmitter could be used as reference point if you stay in VFR.

    Gavin
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-03-26 12:44
    There are quite a few 4 rotor homebuilds on the net, I'd recommend the forums on www.rcgroups.com for further info. I moderate the indoor/micro forum but you would probably be better in helicopters.

    Gavin,

    Who is selling the McCutchen flyers? These I am very interested in.

    Graham
  • Paul_HPaul_H Posts: 85
    edited 2007-03-26 14:28
    Biped,

    Feel free to try the code i posted here http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=179159 for RC radio acquisition, or a manual override switch.

    Paul
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2007-03-26 17:26
    Gavin said...
    Yep, enclosed rotor system like the UFO would be better.
    You could used BLDC motors and get the prop to control the 3 phases of 4 motors.
    Converted CDROM motors and 3 cell lithium polymer battery
    SPI based 2/3D accel and gyro/compass.
    The rotors on the X-UFO aren't enclosed. It may look like it, but they're not.
    In fact, the rotors sit approx .2" above the foam rings.
    The rings will take most of the impact when you crash, but they also bend easily.
    If the rotors were enclosed, either the blades would break, or the foam would be destroyed when you crashed.
    (I will make proper ducts for mine as soon as I can get the Propeller to hover steadily, so that I can get an increase in lift, and thereby a saving in battery power)


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    Don't visit my new website...
  • GavinGavin Posts: 134
    edited 2007-03-27 02:01
    Graham,

    Re McCutchen, I think the guy's name was Ian Blackburn, an UK indoor microguy


    Just found out about the http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Support.aspx?ProdID=EFLH1250
    Coax setup and should be better than the falcon to hack.
    Uses Cypress WireUSB PSOC's, my current fav micro after the prop.

    Gavin
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-03-27 08:36
    That might be Bob Blackburn, I know he made one, I didn't know he was selling any.

    Graham
  • GavinGavin Posts: 134
    edited 2007-03-27 11:30
    Graham,

    I don't think Bob B was selling them yet.
    Last I heard he was playing around with compass chips.
    I got the Hitachi compass module to give it a try myself.
    Dug out my old stash of Memsic accelerometers and found they were old models[noparse]:([/noparse]
    My samples of the Wireless PSOCs arrived last week, so I have most of the parts.
    Thinking about the sharp range finder parts to stop wall, floor, roof bumping.
    Maybe ultrasonic for height?
    Too many ideas not enough time.

    Gavin



    ·
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-03-27 11:55
    Gavin, I can't read. I inferred from "a guy making them in the UK" that he was making them to sell, doh!

    Graham
  • BipedguyBipedguy Posts: 40
    edited 2007-03-28 15:25
    Im back and all I can say is WOW! Thanks for all the detailed responses and possible programs. I use a Mac so some do not work, but thanks anyway. Anyway, switching back to protoboard. If you see the raptor video, the incredible manuevering capabilities was what brought me to it. But i will switch to the other one recommended.

    Steps:
    1. Get the heli and every other sensor or appmod
    2. Integrate the protoboard and solder the current servos to the board
    3. Integrate the GPS
    4. Create a path using google earth
    5. Fly the thing with integrated video.

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    "Robots are just lights...and clockwork."

    Detective Spooner
    iRobot
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-03-28 15:50
    Beware that another word for maneuverable is unstable, in the case of the video the human controller has a very developed neural net! A beginner will crash a heli many times just learning to hover stably.

    I'd suggest that you have smaller steps, much smaller steps.

    Graham
  • GavinGavin Posts: 134
    edited 2007-03-31 13:28
    Strange you should mention google earth, I just downloaded the lastest version a few minutes ago.
    Was wondering how accurate the coordinates are, my GPS is in the shed and I will need to wait until morning to find it.
    It is much better than the older version I looked at a few years ago, nearly useful 3D and elevation stuff?

    Also got the prop data sheet hoping for a clue on PAL/NTSC video RF transmitter for remote debug output etc
    I will have to find the old threads about it.

    On the sandbox forum Kelvin has been playing with a Stanley/Leica laser range finder, altitude for UAV?

    Gavin
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 916
    edited 2007-04-04 00:58
    Well UAV people - this is not my scene ,however, I posted this article in a different thread - thought you may be interested in it.

    Here it is :

    UAV Article

    Regards,
    Quattro

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'
  • Tech-ManTech-Man Posts: 100
    edited 2007-04-04 18:29
    Hi, I am also thinking about building an Autonomous UAV airplane style (just sounds essayer).·Also a·few post back you said you wanted to use Bluetooth to comunicat with the Propeler chip, this would work but you could only do so from within a range of about 300 feet. Wouldent it be posibal to send comands using a cheap cell phone, have now idea how just sounds posibal.


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    There are no Undo buttons in life.
  • simonlsimonl Posts: 866
    edited 2007-04-05 08:27
    That's an interesting thought! Not sure if you'd hit latency and/or bandwidth problems though?

    I'm considering using a couple of XBee-PROs -- just not impressed with their use of 2mm-pitch headers, I need to bread-board this stuff first (I'm also in the UK, so adding the Selmaware AppBee boards adds cost to my very limited budget :-()

    I have got hold of a DPAC 2.4GHz WiFi module (from Sparkfun) and will be trying to hook that up to the PChip soon. I'll let you know how I get on.

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    Cheers,

    Simon

    BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style smile.gif
    www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
    You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
  • parts-man73parts-man73 Posts: 830
    edited 2007-04-05 14:01
    simonl said...
    I'm considering using a couple of XBee-PROs -- just not impressed with their use of 2mm-pitch headers, I need to bread-board this stuff first (I'm also in the UK, so adding the Selmaware AppBee boards adds cost to my very limited budget :-()

    Sparkfun just came out with a breakout board for the XBee. It was only $1.50, plus the 2mm headers are another $0.95 each. Unfortunately it appears they just went on backorder. But when they have them again, it's a cheap solution.

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    Brian Meade

    "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night" - Edgar Poe
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