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Propeller Education Kit — Parallax Forums

Propeller Education Kit

Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
edited 2007-03-02 21:31 in Propeller 1
I finally got to use my Propeller education kit today, and I must say that everything is very nice. The only problem is, I cannot get the Propeller to communicate with the PC.

I have downloaded and installed the drivers, and the Plug itself is detected correctly. The problem is that the LED doesn't light when the 9V battery isn't plugged in, even though the USB cable is connected. I tested the voltage on the prop plug when it was not connected to the board, and it read a steady 3.3V. But when plugged into the board, it barely reads 1.5. The Propeller chip itself is drawing all the power, because when I take it off the board the voltage on the prop plug pins goes back to 3.3V.

Any ideas on how to make the LED light? The setup and testing lab doesn't has tons of information for troubleshooting, but none of it seems to help.

Comments

  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-02-28 01:19
    The Propeller has to have power to communicate to the PC. Do check your wiring carefully, make sure the Propeller has power and that it's the proper voltage. The PropPlug doesn't supply power to the Propeller, only to itself. The PropPlug signals, although they should go between 3.3V and 0V, don't supply any significant amount of power.
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-02-28 01:59
    Yes, but the first lesson states that if all is working properly, the power LED will light dimly when the USB cable is connected. It is not doing that. I have checked my wiring many many times, and I can't see the problem.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-02-28 02:31
    Did the LED light brightly when the battery was connected? If not, the LED may be connected backwards. The voltages you measured show that something is drawing power from the PropPlug (which can supply enough to dimly light an LED). Maybe you can get someone else to recheck your wiring. Sometimes we get so familiar with something that we miss a small mistake. In any event, the PropPlug cannot provide power for the Propeller itself. You didn't mention whether you've checked the power supply for the Propeller (5V regulator and 3.3V regulator). You really have to have proper power supply voltages as the 1st lesson indicates. The test with the PropPlug is to make sure the programming connections are ok.
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-02-28 03:18
    Yes, the LED did glow brightly when the battery was connected. The regulators are also working properly. Is it possible that the Propeller chip itself is to blame? The voltage remains around 1.5V all the way from Tx on the Prop Plug to Pin 31 on the Propeller, but once it reaches the other side it is hardly even a tenth of a volt. I am assuming that the LED in this circuit gets its power from the 3.3V pin on the left side of the propeller when the battery is not plugged in? The LED itself is getting voltage, just hardly enough to even move my multimeter's needle.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2007-02-28 03:29
    I'm assuming that the LED is getting current through the internal protective diode on the serial receive pin on the Propeller. It would be +3.3V via the PropPlug's internal regulator (from 5V from the USB cable). Less a diode drop is about +2.6V which should be enough to dimly light an LED with the series resistor involved. The only way you're going to find out if the Propeller chip is ok is to power it up with the PropPlug, the PC, and the Propeller Tool and see if it responds. It's possible the Propeller chip is defective, but unlikely.
  • edited 2007-02-28 05:41
    Michael,

    Mike's advice is good, as always. You're probably not going to damage anything by attempting a program download. Plug in the battery, and verify that the power LED glows brightly. Then, plug in the Propeller Plug. If the power LED stays nice and bright, try a program download. The only thing to watch out for would be if the power LED is glowing brightly with the 9 V supply, but gets faint or goes out when the Propeller Plug gets connected. If that happens, disconnect the Propeller Plug immediately and go back to checking your wiring.

    Just a four more suggestions:

    (1) Make sure you are using v1.1 of the Setup and Testing lab. If not, download it from http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=32305.

    (2) Double-check to make sure the parts on the Propeller plug are facing up, and the label is facing down. (See Figure 3 in Setup and Testing v1.1.)

    (3) Make sure your Propeller chip is well socketed. If it's not properly socketed, the LED might not glow faintly without the battery.· When the pins are all the way into the sockets, the underside of the chip will be flush with the breadboard.

    (4) Check the orientation of the Propeller chip and 24LC256 EEPROM. Both of their reference notches should be toward the top of the board. (Figure 3 again)

    If the program does successfully download, we'll know the connections were correct, and we'll have to revisit those faint power LED instructions. If you instead get an error message, continue with item 6 in Setup and Testing's Trouble Shooting section.

    Please let us know the results either way.

    One·unrelated note -·make sure that one end of the 10 k resistor is tied to 3.3 V, and the other to pin 5 of the 24LC256.

    Regards, Andy

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.

    Post Edited (Andy Lindsay (Parallax)) : 2/28/2007 5:48:36 AM GMT
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-02-28 12:17
    That's the problem. I can't program the device. Windows detects the USB plug, and beeps when it is plugged in or out, but it doesn't show up in the Identify hardware box. The fact that the LED wasn't lighting made me assume that the problem was hardware side, as opposed to some driver problem.

    Also, the regulators all display the correct voltage on their output pins, but they get fairly hot fairly quick. Is this part of the problem?

    The only pins on the whole board that are higher than a volt are the Tx and Rx pins on the plug, and pins 31 and 32 on the Propeller. Everything else has a barely noticeable voltage.
  • statemachinestatemachine Posts: 24
    edited 2007-02-28 12:33
    Those regulators should not be getting hot so quickly.Take it slow and go through both the view and the schematic.

    Post Edited (statemachine) : 2/28/2007 12:43:51 PM GMT
  • rokickirokicki Posts: 1,000
    edited 2007-02-28 16:43
    Yeah, if your regulators are getting hot, you must have a short of some sort, or something else. Maybe post a picture of your
    setup and we can take a look for something obvious.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,559
    edited 2007-02-28 18:10
    Is anything else "hot"? for example the EEPROM... is it plugged in backwards? I only say this because I did this early on with the Propeller, having a similar experience (Hey were only human).
    Good news was is that the EEPROM survived, but I'm sure that I have made a dramatic impact on it's life expectancy.

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    Beau Schwabe

    IC Layout Engineer
    Parallax, Inc.
  • rokickirokicki Posts: 1,000
    edited 2007-02-28 18:21
    Isn't it funny that no matter how careful we are, we still make mistakes? My first mistake with the propeller was soldering a capacitor on
    backwards. Because it had been so long since I did soldering work, it took me most of the day to go out and purchase the necessary
    desoldering stuff (solder wick, and a spring-loaded solder sucker) which was a pain. I also have a tendency to solder multiple pins of
    something too early, before checking it for alignment and so on. Even when I'm doing something simple, like soldering the female
    headers on a protoboard so I can breadboard things, I make little errors---in this case I chose the holes further from the processor
    (to minimize the heat going into the prop package), but I realize now that's going to be a problem when I hardwire logic onto the
    same board (because the other set of holes are now much less accessible, being on the wrong side of the header).

    You have to break a few eggs, I guess. So far nothing has actually broken yet (which probably just means I'm not trying hard enough).
  • edited 2007-02-28 18:50
    I agree with Rokicki, if you can get a good close-up photo of your board, one of us can probably spot the problem.

    Here's something I've done that has helped in the past. Starting with a printout of Figure 3, (or a photocopy of the box sleeve) I'll write down the coordinates of one of the components (chip, wire, resistor, pushbutton, etc). Then, I'll set the figure aside and verify the component coordinates on my board. Then, going back to the figure, I'll draw over that component with a highlighter pen to check it off. The process is similar for the schematic.

    Upside-down and backwards chips are quite possibly the problem. The reference notch on the Propeller chip should be in the same location as the one on the sticker, top-center of the chip in Figure 3. Likewise with the 24LC256, the reference notch should also be top-center.

    The print on the voltage regulators should be facing to the left as you look at Figure 3, and both metal tabs should be toward the right. The upper-left voltage regulator should be the LM2940-5.0, and the lower-right one should be the LM2937-3.3.

    Power to ground mistakes are easy to make, especially in the area around the voltage regulator and EEPROM. All a wire has to be is one row off. Other places where a problem can occur is in the neighborhood of the Propeller chip's GND and 3.3 V connections. One column off on one of the power rails will have the same effect.

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.
  • edited 2007-02-28 18:57
    rokicki said...
    Isn't it funny that no matter how careful we are, we still make mistakes?...
    Indeed it is.· Fortunately, it's a little easier to laugh about when replacement parts are $12 or less instead of a $50 to·$80·module.· The time element can still frustrating, be it in desoldering or waiting for the part delivery,·but I suppose we all need reminders to keep us cautious.·

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-02-28 20:32
    OK, I'll check the board over again, and if I can't spot the problem, I'll try to upload a picture. Hopefully I didn't burn out the Propeller, which is my big worry. I just bought a new EEPROM, so I don't mind if the included one is burnt out.
  • edited 2007-02-28 20:43
    It'll probably be fine. As microcontrollers go, the Propeller chip is very forgiving when it comes to wiring mistakes.

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-02-28 23:25
    Well, I was unable to spot the problem myself. I have uploaded some pictures of the board, of the best quality I could come up with. They were the closest I could get to the board without the flash blinding everything in the picture. Hopefully, someone here can help spot my problem.

    mike.popoloski.googlepages.com/images.zip
  • edited 2007-03-01 00:45
    I don't see any wiring mistakes either. If tonight's trouble-shooting doesn't work, let's talk offline about trading boards (we'll cross ship one that's known to work so that we can take a closer look at yours).

    Here's the first installment of extra trouble-shooting suggestions.

    Try removing the EEPROM. Then, connect everything else and load the Program into the Propeller chip with F10. Disconnect power as quickly as possible if it doesn't work.

    It's pretty rare, but sometimes a long wire end can snake its way through and make contact with an adjacent row/column. I would examine any wire that seemed to go into the socket too deeply. Also examine wires that are entering the socket at an angle (instead of vertical).

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.
  • ForrestForrest Posts: 1,341
    edited 2007-03-01 01:06
    With power off, use your multimeter and check the resistance across the reset button leads and make sure the button is working properly.
  • edited 2007-03-01 01:15
    Below are some probe points for a known good board (PE Platform). Please try these probe points, and let us know about any significant measurement differences.

    With USB connection (Propeller plug to 4-pin header to PC USB port) but without 9 V battery:
    Power rails (all): 1.88 V (all four)
    Propeller Plug RX pin (a-f, 1): 2.27 V
    Propeller Plug TX pin (a-f, 2): 2.53 V
    Propeller Plug RES pin (a-f, 3) : 0 V (Regardless of whether reset button is pressed)
    Propeller Plug Vss pin (a-f, 4) : 0 V

    With 9 V Battery connected and Propeller Plug Disconnected:
    Power rails: 3.3 V (all)
    Propeller Plug RX pin (a-f, 1): 0.03 V
    Propeller Plug TX pin (a-f, 2): 0.04 V
    Propeller Plug RES pin (a-f, 3) : 3.30 V <0 V when Reset button pressed>
    Propeller Plug Vss pin (a-f, 4) : 0 V

    With 9 V Battery and Propeller Plug + PC USB connected:
    Power rails: 3.3 V (all)
    Propeller Plug RX pin (a-f, 1): 3.24 V
    Propeller Plug TX pin (a-f, 2): 3.28 V
    Propeller Plug RES pin (a-f, 3) : 3.30 V <0 V when Reset button pressed>
    Propeller Plug Vss pin (a-f, 4) : 0 V

    Regardless of USB connection:
    Positive power input (g-l, 1): 6 to 10 V*
    GND (g-l, 2 and 4): 0 V
    + 5 V (g-l, 3): 4.99 V
    + 3 V (g-l, 5): 3.3 V

    * For best results, use a new alkaline battery, which should be 9+ V.

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-03-01 01:21
    Taking the EEPROM off doesn't help anything (the IDE cannot detect it on any port). I pulled everything off and rewired the board, but still nothing. I did find out that the regulators only heat up when the Propeller chip is plugged in to the board. If I pull the Propeller chip off the board, the regulators fail to get hot.
  • edited 2007-03-01 01:27
    That's good to know. There's probably no need to go through the probe points now.

    Please contact me via email using the envelope icon to the left of this post, and I'll we'll send you another Propeller chip to test.

    Thanks, Andy

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    Andy Lindsay

    Education Department
    Parallax, Inc.
  • simonlsimonl Posts: 866
    edited 2007-03-01 13:21
    It's a long-shot, but is the label on the Prop' the correct way up?

    I once had a similar problem (over-heating components) when I installed a push-button the wrong way around, but your pic's suggest that's not the case here.

    It's intriguing -- please let us know what it was when you've fixed it [noparse];)[/noparse]

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    Cheers,

    Simon

    BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style smile.gif

    www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
    You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
  • Michael PopoloskiMichael Popoloski Posts: 42
    edited 2007-03-02 21:31
    Well, it turns out that it was indeed the chip itself. After trying a new chip, everything works fine. Thanks for all the help, everyone!
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