Brian - my Apologies .... I couldn't agree more - Had a few machine designers wondering what the machines were running - you could tell that they too were bothered by the props capabilities... ·
Here's something that I really want to share that doesn't deserve a thread, as it's somewhat off-topic, but it relates to quality. It's about how NOT to do something. It's also about how a lot of stuff, unfortunately, gets done.
My hot tub controller died a while back, and while it was·likely·some·sub-$10 part that failed, I thought I'd call in the experts to just fix it. That way, I wouldn't have to worry, right? I would pay money to get around diverting my attention from stuff I'd rather think about. Well, it's a long, sordid story, but I'll keep it brief.
There have been three visits so far by 'technicians'.
The first guy was convinced that·the top-side control panel was the brains of the machine, and it needed replacing. It was just some LEDs and buttons with a huge ribbon cable going back to a PIC chip in the main controller box. I couldn't convince him it was not the problem, so I pulled the panel off in front of him, as I was already resigned to getting a whole new controller. I didn't want to waste a week (and their money) on a pointless experiment. He wrote me up on his service sheet "Customer pulled up top-side control, ripped ribbon out of unit."
A few days later, the new $900 controller had been installed while I was at work. I came home and went to see it, and I thought for sure he must have had to leave in a hurry and would·be back any minute, because the backs of the pump motors were off, the AC mains conduit wasn't·secured to the controller,·and fittings were scattered all over, not to mention garbage. I called him up·and it was·clear that he was 'done'. He was surprised I was worried about anything. He said·having things in that state·"wasn't a problem".
That night, I was in bed and heard a loud 60Hz buzz for 5 seconds and then a "Pop!". It kept repeating every minute. I went out there to catch the next one, and a blue arc lit up the backyard. The problem was a bad motor, which had probably killed the first controller. The contactor would close, the motor would short, and when the contactor released, it would arc as the field collapsed.
Another guy came out the next day and while I was on the phone with him at work, he saw this happen for himself. So, we needed a new main motor for $400. Let's get an ozone generator, also, for $200. That would really wrap things up nicely. I love the smell of ozone and it keeps things so fresh.
So, today, I came home and went to see the final fruits of all this money and time. Check it out:
I should probably ask him how often he recommends I change all that cardboard out. My plan now is to ask the owner of the spa shop to just come out, himself, and make it right. I'd be content with that. Sheesh! You think his son might be working for him?
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 3/2/2007 7:48:07 AM GMT
My 3rd job is assistant to an electrician. He's old school pushing 60 and 40 of those years are in the field.
90% of the jobs I help him out with is to fix what other contractors have screwed up and got paid for.
And I seldom hear of his clients getting retrobution, other than selling back the brand new components when all that was needed
was a capacitor replacement. And really, Should plumbers be allowed to work on electrical any way( They should at least change cloths first!)
Now I'm feeling better, I think that in my country, were the only one place where that things happend !!.
If you want to do it better, do it by yourself !! and very very cheap too !! then you could order a killer for them :-(
That's why the PIC don't work ??......
We've been temperature testing the Propeller chip with our new climate chamber.·The chamber·goes from -73C to 190C. The Propeller has perfrormed perfectly throughout this entire temperature range at full speed (80MHz) with all cogs running.
Note that 'military' temperature rating is -55C to 125C, so the Propeller has exceeded that by a good margin on both ends. We don't have the means to go below -73C, though we could use a heat gun and thermocouple·to go higher than 190C. The melting point of most lead-free solders is 215C+, though, so 190C is already very close to the limit of solder. By the way, the melting point of good old eutectic tin-lead solder is only 183C, so we tested beyond that!
During the temperature test, the Propeller operated off a 5MHz crystal and a 24LC256 EEPROM. Brownout reset was enabled. We had to supply an externally-regulated 3.3V for power·since the Prop Demo Board's voltage regulators were going into the thermal shutdown due to ambient heat.
dealing with spa and hot tub technicians is definitely hard to do. It was just easier and more expensive just to update our hot tub and get a new one. The control boards, although convenient to replace and install, are very pricey.
I'm working on integrating the propeller into an industrial product right now. I'm glad this post came up; now when the head engineer asks how durable the electronics are, I'll be able to answer him.
Comments
·
Brian
My hot tub controller died a while back, and while it was·likely·some·sub-$10 part that failed, I thought I'd call in the experts to just fix it. That way, I wouldn't have to worry, right? I would pay money to get around diverting my attention from stuff I'd rather think about. Well, it's a long, sordid story, but I'll keep it brief.
There have been three visits so far by 'technicians'.
The first guy was convinced that·the top-side control panel was the brains of the machine, and it needed replacing. It was just some LEDs and buttons with a huge ribbon cable going back to a PIC chip in the main controller box. I couldn't convince him it was not the problem, so I pulled the panel off in front of him, as I was already resigned to getting a whole new controller. I didn't want to waste a week (and their money) on a pointless experiment. He wrote me up on his service sheet "Customer pulled up top-side control, ripped ribbon out of unit."
A few days later, the new $900 controller had been installed while I was at work. I came home and went to see it, and I thought for sure he must have had to leave in a hurry and would·be back any minute, because the backs of the pump motors were off, the AC mains conduit wasn't·secured to the controller,·and fittings were scattered all over, not to mention garbage. I called him up·and it was·clear that he was 'done'. He was surprised I was worried about anything. He said·having things in that state·"wasn't a problem".
That night, I was in bed and heard a loud 60Hz buzz for 5 seconds and then a "Pop!". It kept repeating every minute. I went out there to catch the next one, and a blue arc lit up the backyard. The problem was a bad motor, which had probably killed the first controller. The contactor would close, the motor would short, and when the contactor released, it would arc as the field collapsed.
Another guy came out the next day and while I was on the phone with him at work, he saw this happen for himself. So, we needed a new main motor for $400. Let's get an ozone generator, also, for $200. That would really wrap things up nicely. I love the smell of ozone and it keeps things so fresh.
So, today, I came home and went to see the final fruits of all this money and time. Check it out:
I should probably ask him how often he recommends I change all that cardboard out. My plan now is to ask the owner of the spa shop to just come out, himself, and make it right. I'd be content with that. Sheesh! You think his son might be working for him?
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 3/2/2007 7:48:07 AM GMT
My 3rd job is assistant to an electrician. He's old school pushing 60 and 40 of those years are in the field.
90% of the jobs I help him out with is to fix what other contractors have screwed up and got paid for.
And I seldom hear of his clients getting retrobution, other than selling back the brand new components when all that was needed
was a capacitor replacement. And really, Should plumbers be allowed to work on electrical any way( They should at least change cloths first!)
What a disaster !
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'Necessity is the mother of invention'
If you want to do it better, do it by yourself !! and very very cheap too !! then you could order a killer for them :-(
That's why the PIC don't work ??......
So sorry.. for your problem, really.
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Regards.
Alberto.
Facts like "There's no data sheet!" tend to stick. Better get it corrected quickly to avoid misunderstandings.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I have 3 projects going that use the propeller. One in an idustrial invironment,
one in HVAC, and another that I can't discuss. My only issues are with my learning
to progam it in an efficient manor. I am learning and the forum is a great source of hlep.
Great work Chip !
Jim Cullins
Sound Logic
Note that 'military' temperature rating is -55C to 125C, so the Propeller has exceeded that by a good margin on both ends. We don't have the means to go below -73C, though we could use a heat gun and thermocouple·to go higher than 190C. The melting point of most lead-free solders is 215C+, though, so 190C is already very close to the limit of solder. By the way, the melting point of good old eutectic tin-lead solder is only 183C, so we tested beyond that!
During the temperature test, the Propeller operated off a 5MHz crystal and a 24LC256 EEPROM. Brownout reset was enabled. We had to supply an externally-regulated 3.3V for power·since the Prop Demo Board's voltage regulators were going into the thermal shutdown due to ambient heat.
Here's a video we made of the heat test:
http://www.youtube.com/v/EjkXokgcBZw
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 7/19/2007 7:41:43 PM GMT
Most industry tests confirm post-test that the IO leakage limit is still met.
(ie the device still meets the data sheet spec )
Q: Did the parallax test chips, still meet the +/- 1uA [noparse][[/noparse]-55..125'C] Data sheet spec,
on every pin, after the 8KV Zaps ?
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tonyroberts09