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Measuring wind speed — Parallax Forums

Measuring wind speed

LSBLSB Posts: 175
edited 2006-10-27 14:29 in General Discussion
I read with some interest (in the customer applications section) an article describing measuring wind speed using Devantech SRF04s. I'm thinking the same thing should be possible using PINGs. Only one aspect bothers me; how does that work? I understand that a measurement taken with TXer upwind and another measurement taken with TXer downwind would give results different by the difference in airspeed between (some Doppler like effect), but if both TXers measure the airspeed in both upwind and downwind directions how would there be any difference? Is this clear? One Transmitter would PING in the upwind direction and receive the echo in the downwind direction--the other would transmit downwind, but receive the echo upwind--wouldn't that cancel any net difference, or am I missing something here?

Mark

Comments

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2006-10-24 16:21
    Can you post a link to the actual design? People make typos all the time. And people misinterpret text all the time.

    Having someone else read the original material might do two things: clarify if there is an error and get a lot more people working on a solution.

    I would like to build a wind measuring device and this seems like a wonderful solution for measurement of typoon winds as there is less exposure to destructive forces.

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    "If you want more fiber, eat the package.· Not enough?· Eat the manual."········
    ···················· Tropical regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2006-10-24 18:58
    I work for the met service up here in Canada and I know we use some of these types of wind sensors.

    Not quite sure if they're the same, but it doesn't have moving parts.

    Another method would be to use temperature sensors....I'm trying to set up an array and see if I can get them to give me wind direction (speed later).
    The trick is that not all temp sensors have the same curve and precip would confuse things (as well as direct sunlight).

    We are testing a precip device that is essentially a hot plate. It maintains a certain temperature at all times, and as precip falls on it, it cools down and requires more energy to bring it back up to temperature....this power has a direct relation to falling precip. At the same time, this unit will measure wind speed (as wind will cool the plate as well)....an ambient temperature sensor is used for a reference.

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    Steve

    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • Tom WalkerTom Walker Posts: 509
    edited 2006-10-24 20:31
    steve_b,
    I would imagine that you would have to use a humidity sensor to establish your "reference" conditions (for the precip detector), as well...or maybe I'm over-complicating it...

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    Truly Understand the Fundamentals and the Path will be so much easier...

    Post Edited (Tom Walker) : 10/24/2006 8:35:06 PM GMT
  • HulkHulk Posts: 68
    edited 2006-10-25 02:18
    Is this the post you're referring to?

    http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/resources/custapps/app_wind.asp

    I think he modified the parts to include only one-way time of flight.· I don't think he's looking for the echo.

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  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2006-10-25 02:33
    Hi Tom,

    no humidity sensor needed. They're just measuring the power to keep a plate at a certain temperature. When it's raining outside, the humidity is 100% so for rain I wouldn't expect they'd need to worry about it. But is Rh 100% when it's snowing? The liquid water content is smaller....hmmm!! haha
    I'm sure there's some fancy formula to deal with evaporation into a saturated medium (ie. an amount of water will evaporate at half the rate when the humidity is half...dunno).
    Tom Walker said...
    steve_b,
    I would imagine that you would have to use a humidity sensor to establish your "reference" conditions (for the precip detector), as well...or maybe I'm over-complicating it...
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    Steve

    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • Robert KubichekRobert Kubichek Posts: 343
    edited 2006-10-25 02:54
    steve_b said...
    I work for the met service up here in Canada and I know we use some of these types of wind sensors.

    Not quite sure if they're the same, but it doesn't have moving parts.

    Another method would be to use temperature sensors....I'm trying to set up an array and see if I can get them to give me wind direction (speed later).
    The trick is that not all temp sensors have the same curve and precip would confuse things (as well as direct sunlight).

    We are testing a precip device that is essentially a hot plate. It maintains a certain temperature at all times, and as precip falls on it, it cools down and requires more energy to bring it back up to temperature....this power has a direct relation to falling precip. At the same time, this unit will measure wind speed (as wind will cool the plate as well)....an ambient temperature sensor is used for a reference.

    You know, I remember reading an article about measuring wind speed by the cooling of a diode junction on a transistor exposed to the wind,,,,,
    I believe it was in the Nuts&Volts magazine;

    www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/feb01toc.htm
    www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/aug04toc.htm

    This link explains how it is done ;
    www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=3990



    Bob scool.gif
  • LSBLSB Posts: 175
    edited 2006-10-25 16:04
    So... I'm not crazy. It would be necessary to measure ping speed in two (at least) directions to measure wind speed--upwind and down wind? Wind direction could be figured from four fixed measurements at perpendiculars (as could wind speed). This would require two bi-directional units or 4 PINGS? Perhaps some sort of electronic relay could switch transponder input/ outputs? Does this seem feasible?

    I’m sure there are easier ways, but ultrasonic also tells distance and has application in a rain gauge, snowfall depth… traffic count…

    Mark
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2006-10-25 17:20
    When it is snowing, it is not nessesarily 100% RH where it falls. It only means that it is 100% RH at some altitude above the location it is snowing, this become more likely as the temperature drops and the snow remains "self-contained" as it falls to the earth imparting very little of it's moisture to the air.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2006-10-25 20:12
    My Gawd Paul....you know weather TOO! [noparse];)[/noparse]

    There's a neat way to measure Rh in a simple way...and that's to take a standard thermometer and put a bit of cloth on the end (can't remember what we call it - Muslin sleeve? - but it looks like cheesecloth). You put it on the end of the bulb and wet it. This is called a wetbulb. You then compare this reading to the 'dry bulb' (regular thermometer) and the closer they are, the higher the Rh. Of course there's a big fancy formula for this, that takes in to account height above Sea level and a few other things.
    In the winter time, these sleeves will freeze, so instead you actually try to freeze a bulb of ice on the end of the thermometer. Put a bit of water on it and roll the thermometer around to get it uniform.


    (sorry for hijacking this thread)

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    ·

    Steve

    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2006-10-25 20:27
    Yeah a hygrometer, I used one as a control for my high school science fair project. I used two 12" aluminum plates a 1/4" apart to form an air core capacitor and used a squirrel cage blower to force air between the two plates and measured the time constant of the capacitor as a measure of the air core's dielectric constant. Then I graphed the correlation between humidity and the dielectric constant. The instrumentation was not adequate to measure the small difference with very much precision (+/-15% was smallest resolution I could get), but the science behind it was enough to get second place in the state science fair.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
  • Tom WalkerTom Walker Posts: 509
    edited 2006-10-26 13:44
    I thought the device he described was called a "sling psychrometer" or something like that. Boy, the memory is crossing wires more and more...

    Too much stuff..not enough brain...

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    Truly Understand the Fundamentals and the Path will be so much easier...
  • LSBLSB Posts: 175
    edited 2006-10-26 14:59
    Maybe I'll just use a ping pong ball in a section of acrylic tube... one SRF04 and a rudder to point it upwind.

    I was only thinking of a simple, reliable way to know if it was too windy to fly R/C and maybe add some "bling" on the unused pins. For anything detailed/ complex/ requiring forecast I have TV!

    As for hijacking the thread... it wasn't hijacked, the exchange of free ideas infers 'unstructured'. I'm still here, your still here--who knows maybe wind speed will come back around.
  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2006-10-26 15:34
    LSB, you could use a "calibrated wind sock"!! You could put an SRF in the opening of the sock, pointed at the tail of the sock. When it's windy, the sock will fill up and present a certain distance for the SRF (assuming the fabric is reflective enough)....
    You might also use an encoder/pot coupled to the mast to determine direction.

    :Tom, the 'sling psychrometer' was the little handled apparatus that the dry/wet bulbs sat in. You created airflow past the bulbs by whipping them around in the sling.
    We also use "psychrometer motors' that just suck air past them at a certain volume. I think this is slightly more accurate than just having them sit in the open (there is a formula for psychrometric and non-psychrometric readings.
    (we've got a really old psychrometer that has an old spring clock engine on the top that you wind up and it turns a light fan that draws air across the bulbs--brass and silver..nice!)

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    Steve

    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2006-10-26 16:12
    steve_b said...
    :Tom, the 'sling psychrometer' was the little handled apparatus that the dry/wet bulbs sat in. You created airflow past the bulbs by whipping them around in the sling.
    We also use "psychrometer motors' that just suck air past them at a certain volume. I think this is slightly more accurate than just having them sit in the open (there is a formula for psychrometric and non-psychrometric readings.
    (we've got a really old psychrometer that has an old spring clock engine on the top that you wind up and it turns a light fan that draws air across the bulbs--brass and silver..nice!)
    But the hand "whipping" makes a very spectacular failure if you bang the thing into something just right, especially with the old Mecury thermometers!· (Do they still use those - meaning the Mecury?)

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    John R.

    8 + 8 = 10
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2006-10-26 16:16
    LSB said...
    I was only thinking of a simple, reliable way to know if it was too windy to fly R/C and maybe add some "bling" on the unused pins. For anything detailed/ complex/ requiring forecast I have TV!
    You need the "Fisherman's Weather Station".· Take a rock, tie it to a rope, and hang it from a tree.

    * If it's swiging, it's windy
    * If it's wet, it's raining
    * If it's shiny, the rain is freezing
    * If it's white, it's snowing

    Just us take this, attach an accellerometer (swinging), color sensor (white for snow, etc.) and you could probably get rain by measuring resistance with an R/C time circuit on the surface of the rock.

    Or have a wireless web cam pointed at the rock :-)

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    John R.

    8 + 8 = 10
  • LSBLSB Posts: 175
    edited 2006-10-26 17:13
    These are excellent suggestions! My favorite answer is to use technology to simplify the procedure in a kind of minimalistic Rube Goldberg approach. When I can tell what it does by intuition, but must study to see how... that's the good stuff! My plan, inspired by this thread, is to mount a 6-8" translucent ball atop a flexible rod... The 2 axis accelerometer should provide both speed and direction--after calibrating with a quick trip around town on my ski rack!
    A few high output LEDs inside; maybe red flashes for max gust, green for average wind speed... Hmmm, I think white to make it glow proportionately to the intensity of the gust. On the roof it would keep all the neighbors informed!

    Direction... how to indicate direction?
  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2006-10-26 19:53
    Hi John,
    we were always told to make sure the dog wasn't sitting beside you as a few dogs were bonked in the process.
    We've gotten rid of our Mercury thermometers and are now stuck with ways to measure· (manually) temperatures below -30degC -- I can't quite remember the number, but mercury freezes at a much lower temperature than alcohol therms.· Also, if your mercury thermometer freezes, it's no longer accurate after you thaw it.·
    John R. said...
    But the hand "whipping" makes a very spectacular failure if you bang the thing into something just right, especially with the old Mecury thermometers!· (Do they still use those - meaning the Mecury?)
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    ·

    Steve

    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • bobledouxbobledoux Posts: 187
    edited 2006-10-27 13:19
    Circuit Cellar Magazine, May 2001, pages 30-38 had an article titled: Ultrasonic Anemometry Anyone?
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2006-10-27 14:29
    LSB said...
    These are excellent suggestions! My favorite answer is to use technology to simplify the procedure in a kind of minimalistic Rube Goldberg approach. When I can tell what it does by intuition, but must study to see how... that's the good stuff! My plan, inspired by this thread, is to mount a 6-8" translucent ball atop a flexible rod... The 2 axis accelerometer should provide both speed and direction--after calibrating with a quick trip around town on my ski rack!
    A few high output LEDs inside; maybe red flashes for max gust, green for average wind speed... Hmmm, I think white to make it glow proportionately to the intensity of the gust. On the roof it would keep all the neighbors informed!

    Direction... how to indicate direction?
    Direction:

    Possibly a "flashing" code, 1 for North, 2 for NNE, 3 for NE...

    Or a vertical array of LEDs, just the bottom for N, half the lights on for S, through the whole "stick" lit for NNW.

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    John R.

    8 + 8 = 10
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