cbmeeks said...
It worked!
However, I did get the problems you described. It only works when I turn off the monitor (1084GS) and turn it back on. And I get the lines going down the screen.
Great work though!
1084GS...Wasn't that a monitor made for C=64/Amiga applications?· My memory isn't what it used to be, but I seem to recall having a couple of 1084S monitors...Trying to remember GS...
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Oh yeah, the 1084GS was made by Commodore (well, Commodore's name on it) and it is the BEST monitor ever made (in the 80s/90s at least).
It hase VGA for the Amiga/C128 and composite with stereo inputs/speakers. PLUS, it has S-Video!! In the form of RCA jack. On some of my circuits, I pass the chroma directly to that S-Video and it looks MUCH better than composite.
Thanks!· That's what I thought...What I would give to have some of my old C= Monitors back...<sigh>· With all the projects for video on the SX, and of course the Propeller...
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Just Wondering...
Couldn't you just use an old VGA 8 bit (or 16 bit card) and use an SX to control the lines to do what you want? Then you could use a VGA monitor to write the games. You would have the ram on the card to use.
Jim,
Generating VGA is simple compared to NTSC.
I could be wrong, but I would assume most people want NTSC video output.
I mean how many people have a spare VGA monitor laying around ?
Pretty much everyone has a color TV.
Bean.
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I have several VGA monitors and tv's. I like both....hehehe
But for retro, you have to go NTSC. VGA is easier...but not by much. However, it is SUPER simple to generate the color you want but the timing is a little difficult to master.
Frank,
Thanks that is interesting.
I've got one prototype with the SRAM, but I've got some problem with the video generation ISR not "playing nice" with the main code when they both access the SRAM.
I want to have the ISR so that it saves the state of the SRAM ports so the main codes doesn't need to restrict access to the SRAM to only the blanking times.
I'd say it's 90% there. One change though is that the bits are rotated the opposite way (RR instead of RL) so the colors are mixed around.
I should be able to get it working next week, then make a tile engine for it (cbmeeks your module is probably 2 weeks away).
Bean.
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hahaha bean. Thanks. I look forward to seeing what you produce since my time is so thin I may not get mine in 2 weeks. I am ordering some more protoboards this weekend though.
You certainly are the master over hardware but I would love to get together with you and maybe produce a stand alone "video card" for NTSC. maybe something like the PropStick but with an SX48 and some pins for SRAM and video? What do you think?
I'm about 90% sure my problem (well code's problem) is the old read-modify-write gottcha.
In reading the datasheet it says:
"For operating frequencies of 50 MHz or lower, if bit 7 of the T2CNTB (PORTRD) is set, the port reads data from the data register instead of port pins. In this case, the NOP instructions are not required."
But it doesn't say if the frequency is above 50MHz ? I'm not sure why it would matter ? Does anyone know ?
Bean.
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Okay, · I'm getting there. · Here is the latest image. It shows all 16 colors used as background and foreground. · As you can see some combinations don't work too well. · I was surprised to see the nice range of colors considering how the color is generated.
Bean.
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In some dim foggy part of my brain I remember someone (was it Woz with the Apple II?) had a hardware mod that converted one of the grays into another color. It may have been a selective pulse extender (count and feed back one of the outputs back into the pulse train) but that is just me guessing. My memory seems to be telling me it was an analog circuit, but I can't imagine how that could possibly be. I also seem to remember that it slightly modified all the other colors as well.
If the loop that sends out the pulses was unrolled, and the middle pulse was made slightly longer with some nop's, what effect would that have on the colors?
Probably useless, I just thought it might spark something.
Naming the colors? Real men don't name colors.
Re: Your sig line about wealth. I'll be passing that on to my wife and kids.
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>Frank,
>Thanks that is interesting.
>I've got one prototype with the SRAM, but I've got some problem with the video generation ISR not "playing nice" with >the main code when they both access the SRAM.
>I got the interrupt routine to co-operate by remembering the SRAM status
>and returning it when it's done.
>So the main code can write to SRAM anytime (much faster).
>But I still have the startup problem...
>Bean.
Bean,
I have a leftover question back from the original black and white mere mortal engin, which I suppose has been triggered when you talk about the SRAM access shared by two threads.
You used __PARAM1 in your ISR at NextTile: and PrimeTileDots:. Exactly why did you use that register? If a function is called in the main code and it gets interrupted, isn't there a problem? I know you made a subroutine to wait for the non-active video phase of the screen display, but is it necessary considering 1) that the worse case scenario is a few pixels that get updated 1/60 seconds later and 2) there are no writes to the shared memory in the ISR?
>As you can see some combinations don't work too well.
...
>I was surprised to see the nice range of colors considering how the color is generated.
The large gamut of colors is perfectly logical because the TV demodulator circuit is continuous in time plus has memory.
Let
y()= +-1 generated by SX
K=4,
T = 1/3.57MHz
n1=time
y(n1 *K *T)-> BP filter h1(t) -> c(t) : color signal before phase demodulation
y(n1 *K *T) -> notch filter h2(t) -> l(t) : luminance
It is originally designed for each pixel to last a timespan of T as expressed in y(n2 * T). where , n2=n1*K. However the output is not taken at discrete time intervals c(n2 * T). It can only be written as c(t) where the phase and magnitude change continuously in time. Also, the filter impulse response h(t) cannot be expressed as a constant scaling factor which implies it has memory.
We could only minimize the interference. I'd like to think about that a bit. Maybe some tricks can be done considering we have 20 clock cycles per colorburst. The easiest technique for consistency I see is to precede each color by at least one pixel of black. Could you please five and equation that relates for a given (x,y) coordinate, what bit pattern you intended to shift out?
transistortoaster said...
You used __PARAM1 in your ISR at NextTile: and PrimeTileDots:. Exactly why did you use that register? If a function is called in the main code and it gets interrupted, isn't there a problem? I know you made a subroutine to wait for the non-active video phase of the screen display, but is it necessary considering 1) that the worse case scenario is a few pixels that get updated 1/60 seconds later and 2) there are no writes to the shared memory in the ISR?
Frank,
· By default (unless you specify NOPRESERVE or NOCODE) SX/B saves all the __PARAMx variables at the start of the interrupt and restores them at the RETURNINT. Otherwise you would be VERY limited as to what SX/B commands you could use in an interrupt. Since many of the SX/B commands use the __PARAMx variables.
· All of the __PARAMx variables are really handy in assembly code because they are guarenteed (sp?) to be in the global memory area. So you can adjust FSR and still have access to them.
· Actually I would like to get the clock frequency down to 16x colorburst, or 57.272727MHz. The spec sheet says the SX48 cannot run above 50MHz at 3.3volts. I would like to make the color video circuit low power, so I want to run the SX at the slowest clock and lowest voltage I possibly can.
· I'm right now writing a Bresenham line code so I can draw lines on the screen. Fun fun fun...
Bean.
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cbmeeks,
It will have to be open for people to use it [noparse];)[/noparse]
I will probably make a serial or I2C or SPI module for use with the BS2 or other controllers. That probably won't be open source.
Actually this whole project started out because I kept seeing the propeller color video and I was thinking, "damn it, if the propeller can do it, the SX can do it.". Of course extra memory is needed, but the prop needs an external EEPROM so there you are.
Bean.
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Bean (Hitt Consulting) said...
cbmeeks,
It will have to be open for people to use it [noparse];)[/noparse]
I will probably make a serial or I2C or SPI module for use with the BS2 or other controllers. That probably won't be open source.
Actually this whole project started out because I kept seeing the propeller color video and I was thinking, "damn it, if the propeller can do it, the SX can do it.". Of course extra memory is needed, but the prop needs an external EEPROM so there you are.
Bean.
You got that right...those Propeller folks are cheating...using that fancy spin language and multiple cogs....back in my day, we used ONE cog and liked it! lol
Seriously, my VGA circuit is coming along pretty well. Got it up to 256x240 resolution with 64 colors...could easily be 256 colors but one of the colors would only be 2 bit and the other 2 would be 3 bit... :-/
well, that's what I am thinking...FRAM is great for fonts but aren't they usually slow? I have some at home but can't remember their speed. I *THINK* around 60-70ns. I have some SRAM that is 15ns so much better for video streaming.
Even though SRAM is volatile you could always copy the FONT table into SRAM at startup.· This trick was frequently used by·BIOS manufacturers to increase access time.
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Comments
Bean.
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Post Edited (Bean (Hitt Consulting)) : 9/7/2006 2:35:41 PM GMT
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Same program, but moves the colorbars to the left with wraparound. SMOOTH....
Bean.
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It hase VGA for the Amiga/C128 and composite with stereo inputs/speakers. PLUS, it has S-Video!! In the form of RCA jack. On some of my circuits, I pass the chroma directly to that S-Video and it looks MUCH better than composite.
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Couldn't you just use an old VGA 8 bit (or 16 bit card) and use an SX to control the lines to do what you want? Then you could use a VGA monitor to write the games. You would have the ram on the card to use.
Thanks,
Jim W.
Generating VGA is simple compared to NTSC.
I could be wrong, but I would assume most people want NTSC video output.
I mean how many people have a spare VGA monitor laying around ?
Pretty much everyone has a color TV.
Bean.
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·
But for retro, you have to go NTSC. VGA is easier...but not by much. However, it is SUPER simple to generate the color you want but the timing is a little difficult to master.
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I did some analysis on the 4 bits rotated out for color. I thought I'd share it with you.
Frank
ANGLES WORK ON I Q PLANE, NOT ON R-Y B-Y PLANE
(The angle is obtained from the second entry of the fft)
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 0 0 0]) nothing at 3.57Mhz
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 0 0 1])= 1 i -1 -i =90degrees = DARK RED
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 0 1 0])= 1 -1 1 -1 = 180 degrees = GREEN
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 0 1 1] = 2 -1+i 0+0 -1-i = 135degrees BRIGHT GREEN (yellow??)
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 1 0 0])= 1 -i -1 i = -90degrees BLUE (DARK CYAN)
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 1 0 1])= 2 0 -2 0 nothing at 3.57Mhz=GREY
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 1 1 0])= 2 -1-i 0+0 -1+i = -135 degrees GREENISH CYAN
fft([noparse][[/noparse]0 1 1 1])= 3 -1 -1 -1 =180degrees GREEN
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 0 0 0])= 1 1 1 1 = 0 degrees VIOLET
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 0 0 1])= 2 1+i 0+0 1-i = 45 degrees RED
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 0 1 0])= 2 0 2 0 nothing at 3.57Mhz=GREY
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 0 1 1])= 3 i 1 -i = 90degrees BRIGHT ORANGE
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 1 0 0])= 2 1-i 0+0 1+i = -45 degrees BLUE-VIOLET
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 1 0 1])= 3 1 -1 1 = 0 degrees VIOLET
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 1 1 0])= 3 -i +1 +i = -90 degrees BLUEISH CYAN
fft([noparse][[/noparse]1 1 1 1])= 4 0 0 0 nothing at 3.57Mhz
Thanks that is interesting.
I've got one prototype with the SRAM, but I've got some problem with the video generation ISR not "playing nice" with the main code when they both access the SRAM.
I want to have the ISR so that it saves the state of the SRAM ports so the main codes doesn't need to restrict access to the SRAM to only the blanking times.
I'd say it's 90% there. One change though is that the bits are rotated the opposite way (RR instead of RL) so the colors are mixed around.
I should be able to get it working next week, then make a tile engine for it (cbmeeks your module is probably 2 weeks away).
Bean.
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·
You certainly are the master over hardware but I would love to get together with you and maybe produce a stand alone "video card" for NTSC. maybe something like the PropStick but with an SX48 and some pins for SRAM and video? What do you think?
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In reading the datasheet it says:
"For operating frequencies of 50 MHz or lower, if bit 7 of the T2CNTB (PORTRD) is set, the port reads data from the data register instead of port pins. In this case, the NOP instructions are not required."
But it doesn't say if the frequency is above 50MHz ? I'm not sure why it would matter ? Does anyone know ?
Bean.
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· I'm getting there.
· Here is the latest image. It shows all 16 colors used as background and foreground.
· As you can see some combinations don't work too well.
· I was surprised to see the nice range of colors considering how the color is generated.
Bean.
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Post Edited (Bean (Hitt Consulting)) : 9/17/2006 8:51:23 PM GMT
Looks very good. Keep us updated on when you think the color video kit will be available. Thanks
The second picture is each of the 16 colors mixed with each of the 16 colors.
P.S. I'd like some suggestion for color names.
Bean.
·
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Post Edited (Bean (Hitt Consulting)) : 9/18/2006 1:46:55 AM GMT
If the loop that sends out the pulses was unrolled, and the middle pulse was made slightly longer with some nop's, what effect would that have on the colors?
Probably useless, I just thought it might spark something.
Naming the colors? Real men don't name colors.
Re: Your sig line about wealth. I'll be passing that on to my wife and kids.
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Dark Green, Dark Gray, Aquamarine, Cerulean(maybe Cornflower)
Dark Red (Brown?), Red, Light Gray, Magenta,
(Dark)Teal, Yellow, Green, White
>Thanks that is interesting.
>I've got one prototype with the SRAM, but I've got some problem with the video generation ISR not "playing nice" with >the main code when they both access the SRAM.
>I got the interrupt routine to co-operate by remembering the SRAM status
>and returning it when it's done.
>So the main code can write to SRAM anytime (much faster).
>But I still have the startup problem...
>Bean.
Bean,
I have a leftover question back from the original black and white mere mortal engin, which I suppose has been triggered when you talk about the SRAM access shared by two threads.
You used __PARAM1 in your ISR at NextTile: and PrimeTileDots:. Exactly why did you use that register? If a function is called in the main code and it gets interrupted, isn't there a problem? I know you made a subroutine to wait for the non-active video phase of the screen display, but is it necessary considering 1) that the worse case scenario is a few pixels that get updated 1/60 seconds later and 2) there are no writes to the shared memory in the ISR?
>As you can see some combinations don't work too well.
...
>I was surprised to see the nice range of colors considering how the color is generated.
The large gamut of colors is perfectly logical because the TV demodulator circuit is continuous in time plus has memory.
Let
y()= +-1 generated by SX
K=4,
T = 1/3.57MHz
n1=time
y(n1 *K *T)-> BP filter h1(t) -> c(t) : color signal before phase demodulation
y(n1 *K *T) -> notch filter h2(t) -> l(t) : luminance
It is originally designed for each pixel to last a timespan of T as expressed in y(n2 * T). where , n2=n1*K. However the output is not taken at discrete time intervals c(n2 * T). It can only be written as c(t) where the phase and magnitude change continuously in time. Also, the filter impulse response h(t) cannot be expressed as a constant scaling factor which implies it has memory.
We could only minimize the interference. I'd like to think about that a bit. Maybe some tricks can be done considering we have 20 clock cycles per colorburst. The easiest technique for consistency I see is to precede each color by at least one pixel of black. Could you please five and equation that relates for a given (x,y) coordinate, what bit pattern you intended to shift out?
Frank
· By default (unless you specify NOPRESERVE or NOCODE) SX/B saves all the __PARAMx variables at the start of the interrupt and restores them at the RETURNINT. Otherwise you would be VERY limited as to what SX/B commands you could use in an interrupt. Since many of the SX/B commands use the __PARAMx variables.
· All of the __PARAMx variables are really handy in assembly code because they are guarenteed (sp?) to be in the global memory area. So you can adjust FSR and still have access to them.
· Actually I would like to get the clock frequency down to 16x colorburst, or 57.272727MHz. The spec sheet says the SX48 cannot run above 50MHz at 3.3volts. I would like to make the color video circuit low power, so I want to run the SX at the slowest clock and lowest voltage I possibly can.
· I'm right now writing a Bresenham line code so I can draw lines on the screen. Fun fun fun...
Bean.
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·
Is this going to be an open project?
I am very excited to see what can be done with this driver.
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It will have to be open for people to use it [noparse];)[/noparse]
I will probably make a serial or I2C or SPI module for use with the BS2 or other controllers. That probably won't be open source.
Actually this whole project started out because I kept seeing the propeller color video and I was thinking, "damn it, if the propeller can do it, the SX can do it.". Of course extra memory is needed, but the prop needs an external EEPROM so there you are.
Bean.
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·
You got that right...those Propeller folks are cheating...using that fancy spin language and multiple cogs....back in my day, we used ONE cog and liked it! lol
Seriously, my VGA circuit is coming along pretty well. Got it up to 256x240 resolution with 64 colors...could easily be 256 colors but one of the colors would only be 2 bit and the other 2 would be 3 bit... :-/
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Coders' Hangout
A place for programmers to hangout!
http://www.codershangout.com
METROID?
Metroid Classic
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Coders' Hangout
A place for programmers to hangout!
http://www.codershangout.com
METROID?
Metroid Classic
Maybe I should look into FRAM ?
Bean.
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Cheap used 4-digit LED display with driver IC·www.hc4led.com
Low power SD Data Logger www.sddatalogger.com
SX-Video Display Modules www.sxvm.com
There are only two guaranteed ways to become weathy.
Spend less than you make.
Make more than you spend.
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Coders' Hangout
A place for programmers to hangout!
http://www.codershangout.com
METROID?
Metroid Classic
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support