Do you work for Microsoft? If so, it's okay to tell us - get ready for the second emoticon I've ever used = >
There are two aspects of the Microsoft Robotics SDK that are required to·run Parallax products.
First, there's the Boe-Bot code. Parallax has written (and continues to revise) a PBASIC program for the Boe-Bot which works with our Embedded Blue transceivers. We developed a serial protocol which allows the BASIC Stamp to report status of the whiskers, IR sensors, input pins, photoresistors, Memsic 2125 accelerometer, HM55B compass, as well as receive some output control codes for servos. This code is intended to put the Boe-Bot in a·remote control·mode·using Bluetooth·from the MS Robotics SDK. Soon we'll be posting this code and the communication protocol on our web site so it can be modifed by users.
What we are not immediately developing within Parallax is the·MS Robotics SDK driver code.·Rather, we're hoping to work with a couple of folks in Microsoft to help us along in this direction.·We're short on MS coders in Parallax - there are only two of them and one is the IT Guy and he's responsible for getting our new·web site launched right now. The other is our Propeller IDE engineer and·he's got responsibilities around our newest processor.·In short, we're hoping·to get some coding assistance from Microsoft staff. Once it takes off, we'll take over the driver responsibility and hire some staff just for the project.
The third and final aspect of our role is to provide a·kit·which is compatible with the·MS Robotics SDK.·At the moment, you need to purchase three products to·have that kit:
This is three different SKUs at Parallax, but soon we will make a single kit for the Robotics SDK. This will be done within two weeks. Then, customers coming in from Microsoft can select a single product (well, USB or serial) and get a bundled package with some savings.
I hope this answers your question. Please let me know what you expect from Parallax if you've got some wishes as a customer, and we'll do our best to achieve that goal.
First, I do not work for Microsoft. <insert emoticon of your choice>
I have been interested however in using Parallax products for some art projects and have recently been working on details for a robotic-based art project. I ran across the MS Robotics studio and not seeing Parallax support in their initial pre-release, was wondering if it was planned or not.
I have extensive background in MS technologies and often find them pretty developer friendly, thus the idea of combining that with your products piqued my curiousity.
I will be on the lookout for new products/capabilities and as my robotic project starts to take shape, I am sure I will be posting with all sorts of questions [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Ken, that is a very tempting offer. Let me do a little research and get back to you on that...I need to figure out the level of effort and when I would have the time.
Well, I'll give you an advance thought on the amount of effort required to do it. At your programming wage I'll need to send you 100 Boe-Bot kits to get this job done. That's enough robots to swarm. Take your time and don't dive in if you can't see the bottom.
I too have been going over the MRS in fact I've gone over the provided documents quite a few times.· Twice now I thrown my arms in the air and yelled "holy convoluted-ness batman!" and given up.· Only to rethink it and start fresh again.·
The parts that keep bringing me back are:
I use VS2005 & c# daily at my real job so it is very familiar.
The Concurrency and Coordination Runtime (CCR) :· I see some real application for this far beyond robotics so the more I can learn about it the better.
WSAP provides an event notification model that is tied to changes in the state of that service.· Polling sucks!
My current intentions are to use the propeller with a Bluetooth or Zigbee product and pipe the serial communications through that.· I've been studying the code used for the SickLRF & the LegoNXT.· At this point though I may spend some time integrating a propeller into my current bot chassis (replacing a Javelin stamp) and wait for the second tech preview of MRS since MS is suppose to give better details and examples of what it takes to write your own bot handler service.
I have some extra vacation time stored up and was thinking I might take a week or two off to play.
I'm not looking for any Parallax freebies just want to become as familiar with some new technologies. (Propeller, MRS)· That being said I'd certainly not refuse any Parallax freebies either.
Ultimately I'd love to be able to run a MRS runtime directly on the propeller and let it participate as a native service.· Obviously we would need a TCP/IP stack and some HTTP, SOAP, … support on the Propeller for that as well as a physical (or wireless)connection.· But small steps first then the incremental improvements can start.
I've just installed MRS, and my own first impression is that it's another case of Microsoft marketing hype and over-engineering. I'm not even sure what MRS is supposed to do. OK, it will simulate your robot, giving a video game style image of your robot doing whatever you've programmed. And presumably you program it in any of the .Net languages... But is that program able to be downloaded to your real life robot ? And if so, how can it add .Net functionality to a BS2 ???
M$ claim that it is for hobyists as well as education and industrial users, but I doubt hobbyists would go through that much learning curve for a simple project. A small project, such as a BoE-Bot, would hardly justify the effort of learning all the objects, methods and properties, and which of the myriad libraries need to be linked.
In my case, I'm expecting to get into image recognition - and that will require a 32-bit processor and a lot of code ... and it is these complex projects where I expect that .Net will pay off.
Anyway I guess with MRS including support for LEGO and fisherteknik that Parallax will have to follow suit or risk loosing market share.
I anticipate MRS moving up-market to the academic and industrial market, as commercial vendors develop support and libraries for it; which may encourage M$ to charge big bucks for MRS. As I understand it, Propellor is Parallax's high-end chip, and so I assume it it the chip which would most benefit from MRS support.
I think the big question is whether MRS will be popular in Parallax's markets, and how educational institutions will use it.
Cheers from down-under !
Post Edited (Donald Burch) : 7/26/2006 12:12:39 PM GMT
The third and final aspect of our role is to provide a·kit·which is compatible with the·MS Robotics SDK.·At the moment, you need to purchase three products to·have that kit:
if your going to make a new kit, why dont you use a sx-48 proto board ( which bolts on to the boe-bot) and one of your lil breadboards glued to it... and a few rows of sip to allow you to breadboard to the pins· . with the new sx/b supporting word, you would have a cheaper experimental board, more memory and faster .....therefore more powerfull boe-bot
add in the virtual periphials.. (- 5 sp·) and and maybe you could virtualize the bluetooth reciever
ps my boe-bot is running around with the sx-48 proto and going good
dan
Post Edited (Sawmiller) : 7/27/2006 12:41:50 AM GMT
Can you please be a little more specific when you say "...write the PC-side drivers..."?· I'm interested in hearing more about how you see this working.
I'm pretty sure everything you'll need for that project is now available. Communication between the PC and Propeller will be more straightforward because you won't have to worry about gotchas like the BASIC Stamp's tendency to stop paying attention when it checks sensors and controls outputs.
I would recommend installing the Microsoft Robotics Studio August 2006 CTP release and taking a look at this folder:
···· C:\Microsoft Robotics Studio (August 2006)\samples\Platforms\Parallax
There's a guided PDF tour through an application of the C# file that handles communication with the BASIC Stamp and lower level decisions on this page:
IMPORTANT, to use it with the Boe-Bot, make sure to modify the Project setting's Debug tab's command line arguments so that it points to·the correct manifest, for example:
Andy you stated "I'm pretty sure everything you'll need for that project is now available"· I'm really not even sure what you mean by this statement.
Having the ability to exploit all the functionality of the Microsoft Robotics Studio with the Propeller would require a major untaking.· Propeller Spin·Code would have to written for all Parallax products (i.e.·appmods, displays, communication, motor control, sensors).· I highly doubt Microsoft is going to write any of this code.· Based on the progress of the software for Javelin, this could take years.
It would be nice if Parallax could offer some kind of source code·CVS (Concurrent Versions System) for managing the source code.· This would definitely speed up development of software.
Comments
Do you work for Microsoft? If so, it's okay to tell us - get ready for the second emoticon I've ever used = >
There are two aspects of the Microsoft Robotics SDK that are required to·run Parallax products.
First, there's the Boe-Bot code. Parallax has written (and continues to revise) a PBASIC program for the Boe-Bot which works with our Embedded Blue transceivers. We developed a serial protocol which allows the BASIC Stamp to report status of the whiskers, IR sensors, input pins, photoresistors, Memsic 2125 accelerometer, HM55B compass, as well as receive some output control codes for servos. This code is intended to put the Boe-Bot in a·remote control·mode·using Bluetooth·from the MS Robotics SDK. Soon we'll be posting this code and the communication protocol on our web site so it can be modifed by users.
What we are not immediately developing within Parallax is the·MS Robotics SDK driver code.·Rather, we're hoping to work with a couple of folks in Microsoft to help us along in this direction.·We're short on MS coders in Parallax - there are only two of them and one is the IT Guy and he's responsible for getting our new·web site launched right now. The other is our Propeller IDE engineer and·he's got responsibilities around our newest processor.·In short, we're hoping·to get some coding assistance from Microsoft staff. Once it takes off, we'll take over the driver responsibility and hire some staff just for the project.
The third and final aspect of our role is to provide a·kit·which is compatible with the·MS Robotics SDK.·At the moment, you need to purchase three products to·have that kit:
Boe-Bot Full Kit Serial or
Boe-Bot Full Kit USB
Embedded Blue·Transceiver and
Embedded Blue PC Adapter·
This is three different SKUs at Parallax, but soon we will make a single kit for the Robotics SDK. This will be done within two weeks. Then, customers coming in from Microsoft can select a single product (well, USB or serial) and get a bundled package with some savings.
I hope this answers your question. Please let me know what you expect from Parallax if you've got some wishes as a customer, and we'll do our best to achieve that goal.
Sincerely,
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
·
First, I do not work for Microsoft. <insert emoticon of your choice>
I have been interested however in using Parallax products for some art projects and have recently been working on details for a robotic-based art project. I ran across the MS Robotics studio and not seeing Parallax support in their initial pre-release, was wondering if it was planned or not.
I have extensive background in MS technologies and often find them pretty developer friendly, thus the idea of combining that with your products piqued my curiousity.
I will be on the lookout for new products/capabilities and as my robotic project starts to take shape, I am sure I will be posting with all sorts of questions [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Thanks,
Stu
If you want to download the Robotics SDK and write the PC-side drivers I'll gladly provide the hardware.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I'll shoot for responding by early-mid next week.
Stu
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
The parts that keep bringing me back are:
My current intentions are to use the propeller with a Bluetooth or Zigbee product and pipe the serial communications through that.· I've been studying the code used for the SickLRF & the LegoNXT.· At this point though I may spend some time integrating a propeller into my current bot chassis (replacing a Javelin stamp) and wait for the second tech preview of MRS since MS is suppose to give better details and examples of what it takes to write your own bot handler service.
I have some extra vacation time stored up and was thinking I might take a week or two off to play.
I'm not looking for any Parallax freebies just want to become as familiar with some new technologies. (Propeller, MRS)· That being said I'd certainly not refuse any Parallax freebies either.
Ultimately I'd love to be able to run a MRS runtime directly on the propeller and let it participate as a native service.· Obviously we would need a TCP/IP stack and some HTTP, SOAP, … support on the Propeller for that as well as a physical (or wireless)connection.· But small steps first then the incremental improvements can start.
Old images of my Javelin bot http://www.shekari.org/wheels.php
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
-Shawn
M$ claim that it is for hobyists as well as education and industrial users, but I doubt hobbyists would go through that much learning curve for a simple project. A small project, such as a BoE-Bot, would hardly justify the effort of learning all the objects, methods and properties, and which of the myriad libraries need to be linked.
In my case, I'm expecting to get into image recognition - and that will require a 32-bit processor and a lot of code ... and it is these complex projects where I expect that .Net will pay off.
Anyway I guess with MRS including support for LEGO and fisherteknik that Parallax will have to follow suit or risk loosing market share.
I anticipate MRS moving up-market to the academic and industrial market, as commercial vendors develop support and libraries for it; which may encourage M$ to charge big bucks for MRS. As I understand it, Propellor is Parallax's high-end chip, and so I assume it it the chip which would most benefit from MRS support.
I think the big question is whether MRS will be popular in Parallax's markets, and how educational institutions will use it.
Cheers from down-under !
Post Edited (Donald Burch) : 7/26/2006 12:12:39 PM GMT
The third and final aspect of our role is to provide a·kit·which is compatible with the·MS Robotics SDK.·At the moment, you need to purchase three products to·have that kit:
if your going to make a new kit, why dont you use a sx-48 proto board ( which bolts on to the boe-bot) and one of your lil breadboards glued to it... and a few rows of sip to allow you to breadboard to the pins· . with the new sx/b supporting word, you would have a cheaper experimental board, more memory and faster .....therefore more powerfull boe-bot
add in the virtual periphials.. (- 5 sp·) and and maybe you could virtualize the bluetooth reciever
ps my boe-bot is running around with the sx-48 proto and going good
dan
Post Edited (Sawmiller) : 7/27/2006 12:41:50 AM GMT
Can you please be a little more specific when you say "...write the PC-side drivers..."?· I'm interested in hearing more about how you see this working.
By the way, there are no drivers included with·Microsoft Robotics Studio August 2006 CTP.· The framework for this SDK is describe here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/robotics/getstarted/prgmmodel/default.aspx
I'm interested in·doing what Microsoft has done in the Microsoft Robotics Studio but with the propeller.
Post Edited (codepro) : 8/16/2006 3:52:13 PM GMT
I would recommend installing the Microsoft Robotics Studio August 2006 CTP release and taking a look at this folder:
···· C:\Microsoft Robotics Studio (August 2006)\samples\Platforms\Parallax
There's a guided PDF tour through an application of the C# file that handles communication with the BASIC Stamp and lower level decisions on this page:
···· http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28118
Microsoft has service tutorials in this folder:
···· C:\Microsoft Robotics Studio (August 2006)\samples\RoboticsTutorials
They also have completed tutorial code examples, like:
···· \samples\RoboticsTutorials\Tutorial1\CSharp\RoboticsTutorial1.csproj
IMPORTANT, to use it with the Boe-Bot, make sure to modify the Project setting's Debug tab's command line arguments so that it points to·the correct manifest, for example:
···· \samples\RoboticsTutorials\Tutorial1\CSharp\Config\RoboticsTutorial1.Parallax.manifest
Post Edited (Andy Lindsay (Parallax)) : 8/16/2006 6:11:29 PM GMT
Having the ability to exploit all the functionality of the Microsoft Robotics Studio with the Propeller would require a major untaking.· Propeller Spin·Code would have to written for all Parallax products (i.e.·appmods, displays, communication, motor control, sensors).· I highly doubt Microsoft is going to write any of this code.· Based on the progress of the software for Javelin, this could take years.
It would be nice if Parallax could offer some kind of source code·CVS (Concurrent Versions System) for managing the source code.· This would definitely speed up development of software.
Post Edited (codepro) : 8/17/2006 4:40:08 PM GMT
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28118
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=66d1363e-36a4-46be-ad36-01bcfbfb4969&displaylang=en#Requirements