Macintosh Support?
Michael Cook
Posts: 1
Hi all. Ever since I first saw a little web link from somewhere I've been interested in the Propeller chip (this was before any of the documentation was up, just about the time it was publically announced). I got even more interested with the article in Nuts and Volts. There is just one problem... I'm a Mac guy.
Now I have virtual PC installed and I can use that if neccessary (although, for speed reasons, I'd like to avoid it). I know this route would work fine.
Is there a Mac OS X compiler/IDE in development? Even just a command line tool is fine. I'd just like to know if there is away to avoid messing with Windows for this.
I'm out of school now and I'd love to play with one of these while I job search. But I just don't think I'm up to going through all the Virtual PC hassle.
Now I have virtual PC installed and I can use that if neccessary (although, for speed reasons, I'd like to avoid it). I know this route would work fine.
Is there a Mac OS X compiler/IDE in development? Even just a command line tool is fine. I'd just like to know if there is away to avoid messing with Windows for this.
I'm out of school now and I'd love to play with one of these while I job search. But I just don't think I'm up to going through all the Virtual PC hassle.
Comments
There is a complete discussion of the reason why there is only a Windows version, and I believe that someone is working on a command-line compiler (although I think it is only for Linux).
However, if you at least have Virtual PC, you can run it on that. And if it is too slow, you can type it up in a text editor, then copy it over into the IDE in order to compile and run it. You lose the benefits of using the IDE like on a windows box, but at least you would have a working solution to program a Propeller chip.
I wish you the best of luck, and ask that you merely reply with your results.
I don't expect Parallax to have a MacOSX version of the Spin compiler any time soon. They're very busy with what they already have to do and, I suspect, would much rather put their limited resources into a development platform that runs directly on the Propellor. There's already enough information publically available on the instruction set for anyone interested to write an assembler. Given the ease of running Windows software on newer Mac hardware, there's even less incentive for a MacOSX compiler. Linux is different enough from Windows, but there are several Linux programs for running Windows applications (like CodeWeaver's CrossOver Office). I haven't tested these, but they ought to work.
Where? Did I miss something?
It seems to me (unless I'm missing something) that more info on the assembler-Spin interface is required (so... the first thing to start running is the Spin interpreter, which then to start an assembler program, looks for... what?)
Also, Spin is kinda integral to the whole Prop experience, so documentation on the interpreter's byte-code format would be necessary...
As mentioned over in the SX forum, I have an IDE that I built for doing PIC and AVR work on OS X (using the GNU tool-chain); and I've started work on a simple tool-chain for the SX (I'm using C/Flex/Bison for the core tools - preprocessor, assembler, and basic compiler; the programmer - and if I can spring loose the details on the protocol, debugger - will be done as a Cocoa bundle that's loaded into my IDE as a plugin). I'm keeping an eye on the Prop; as I have a number of ideas that it would be just great for... it would be nice to be able to program it on the Mac (or Linux boxen, etc), too...
>> The Propeller Compiler itself is written in 32-bit assembly language for speed in execution and development (as we are very familiar with Intel x86 assembly).
>> Chip the writer of the compiler thinks in assembly, its quicker for him to pound things out in it.
More proof that Chip is, in fact, an alien...
You can clearly see that I am, in fact,·a Muppet (not phoning home here, but ordering more pizza and wafers).
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 6/23/2006 9:33:29 AM GMT
However someone, I can't recall who, did post a pdf descibing the nuts-and-bolts of the Propeller (although I think it is just the first part of the booklet). I have attached it so you don't have to search·a bunch of threads. It includes a breakdown of the assembler opcode in detail.
As for this quote: Chip isn't the only one who thinks in assembly. I find it more logical. It is very strict and straightforward. Beep
If you have any experience with assembly, the existing docs are more than enough to get you going (core docs.pdf mainly, this was the only docs received at the unveiling and I have written several routines based almost solely on page 5), they just aren't to the level of documentation that Parallax customers have grown to love and expect. Tech doc writing is an arduous task and they have other job duties besides writing those docs.
Chip has released the preamble bytecode for programs in another thread, root around for it. There is a byte code for launching an assembler cog (also detailed in that thread). Other than that, Im not sure what else you're asking for.
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Life is one giant teacup ride.
Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 6/23/2006 12:31:03 PM GMT
everything from $00-$CE is the required preamble for all programs, $10-$1C is the minimum spin code required to launch into an assembler routine, replacing the current cog with the assembly code. $10-$1B become the stack ($18-$1B gets reclaimed as part of the stack once the byte code is executed), the arguments 0, $20, 0 are pushed on the stack via the byte codes at $18-$1B, then the bytecode at $1C pops the arguments off the stack and starts the assembly loading process.
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Life is one giant teacup ride.
Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 6/23/2006 3:31:02 PM GMT
>> They feel it would be too much of a support nightmare, and I agree.
Hmm... I disagree, but only slightly -- it could be released as totally unsupported; and should anybody ask a bunch of dumb questions about it, tell em' to go pound bits... but, yeah, I can see how they wouldn't want to be in the business of trying to explain to newbies how it's internals work.
>> However, theres nothing keeping you from reverse engineering the byte code.
Hmm... yeah, but it's always better to have official documentation (even if that documentation was originally designed for "internal Parallax use").
>> On the other hand, if you are a serious developer and have a high degree of "figure it out yourself"-ness you can ask in an offline manner about the bytecode, and they _may_ provide it if you're not going to ask a ton of questions requesting explainations on it.
I wasn't asking (yet)... just speculating on what it would take to do some such thing. If I was to ask, then yeah -- I'd probably do so in person (I'm only about half an hour away from Parallax HQ - and that's just cuz' I tend to hit all the red lights going thru Folsom and out Douglas Bvld), and be willing to sign any requisite NDAs, etc...
>> If you have any experience with assembly
I do. Quite a bit, actually...
>> they just aren't to the level of documentation that Parallax customers have grown to love and expect.
I can be patient.
>> Tech doc writing is an arduous task and they have other job duties besides writing those docs.
Yes - it most definitely is.
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>> You can clearly see that I am, in fact, a Muppet
Pigs - er, make that Bears in Spaaaaace, anybody?
Wokka Wokka Wokka! (ok, ok, I know.. that's your line)
I'm not interested in supporting SPIN; if I want to get 20KIPS in a high-level language, I'll write in C and underclock an AVR.
The Propeller instruction set itself is pretty pleasant for assembly programming, though the Parallax syntax gives me a bit of a headache. I've implemented both the Parallax syntax and my own, Motorola-like syntax that doesn't rely on column position.
It's in Java, so it should run on anything from a cellphone up, though be warned that Windows users are unlikely to get tech support unless someone mails me a copy. I'll post sources if people are interested.
I'm using GuestPC, though, not virtualPC as it's not only cheaper, but it's also NOT made by M$.
I did have some problems with GuestPC/winXP not detecting the FTDI adapter I'm using, but then I went into the control panel/System/Hardware(whatever) right-clicked on COM3 and selected update driver and pointed it to the FTDI driver I downloaded from Parallax. The next time I connected the FTDI device, it detected a new device and ran the usual wizard, and now all is well...
(Except that I have almost enough time to make a cup of tea while the Propeller IDE starts... )
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