how to product hydrogen with solar pannel
dechief michel
Posts: 75
Hello has all,
I information retrieval to produce hydrogen from solar collector. I base myself on the studies made by parallax and remains available for all additional information. Witch current needed, how can i stock hydrogen....
Sorry for my bad acknolegement of your langage, normally i speek french.
Regards from Belgium.
Michel
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
I information retrieval to produce hydrogen from solar collector. I base myself on the studies made by parallax and remains available for all additional information. Witch current needed, how can i stock hydrogen....
Sorry for my bad acknolegement of your langage, normally i speek french.
Regards from Belgium.
Michel
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
Comments
For what it's worth --
http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/001.1/
Hope we don't read about you in the newspaper (if you get my meaning.)
Post Edited (PJ Allen) : 4/29/2006 4:42:04 PM GMT
As mentioned, it takes a lot of current to make a lot.· And iF the water is pure, it may require a high voltage.· It might work better with salt water at a low voltage.
Any large quantity of hydrogen is explosive and because it happens to be nearly the smallest molecule that exist, it easily leaks out of valves and through the skin of a rubber balloon.
So, while it may seem a lot of fun to do at home, you can get into serious trouble if you are trying to create an energy source on a DIY basis.· This is the same gas that causes Lead Acid battery explosions from overcharging.· In a closed room, a lot of bad things might happen.
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
My answer is how to generate electrolise processing, managing true a basic stamp to have for result a part of hydrogen and a part of oxygen.Object is to produce hydrogen with solar power.How mutch current needed to resolve electrosise?
Thanks by advance for answer,
Sincerely yours,
Michel
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
Basically all you do is send electricity through water.
DC gives H2 at one electrode and O2 at the other, as Kramer said, AC gives both.
This is called electrolysis. It will separate many thing besides water.
I recall using carbon rods from plain old batteries (cut open) as electrodes (but maybe you need the zinc casing also? )
Cheap hydrogen to run your internal combustion engines as long as your electricity is almost free.
This is one reason why we need fusion power.
With a little bit of hand waving, if you can get a current of 1 Amp to flow through the solution, this is 1 coulomb of charge transfered every second. If the efficiency rate is 50%, the 1 coulomb of charge is transfered to the solution every 2 seconds. 1 coulomb of charge is 6.241 x 10^18 electrons. Each water molecule requires 2 electrons to dissociate. 1 mole of hydrogen gas is 6.02252
My project is to use a STAMP to manage a solar power station which will produce hydrogen, this in order to heat my house. Hydrogen will be liquified by cooling for the storage and then used like fuel in a boiler.
The STAMP will have to direct the sensors towards the sun and to manage all the processus(controle boiler and storage of liquid gas). My problem is that I cannot calculate how many square meters of solar panels I will have to install. I do not know if my project is realistic but I think that I my time in there reflective does not lose .
My country(Belgium) is beautifull but winter is cold and petrol very expansive.
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
Now onto the not so ordinary solutions, there are radient tiles which absorb the sun's light and radiate the heat into the room. These work best by placing them far enough away from the window so that the sun in the summer does not strike them but does during the winter when it travels lower in the sky. You could still use the solar panels, and use them to drive a radient heating system. This is where wires are buried under a tiled floor and heat the tiles which in turn heat the room, this would be a more energy efficient method of transforming the sun's engery into heat. Another way would be to use it to heat water which is used in an air exchanger to heat the home (say if you wanted carpeted flooring instead of tiles).
If you main concern is storing energy from the summer to use in the winter, I think using a bunch of battery would likely be a better solution (though Im not positive on this), if you want an interesting read on a home that is completely off the electric, water and sewer grid, check out the Florida Solar Cracker House: http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~liz/home.html. (Cracker is a derogatory term in Florida, it comes from the slave master cracking his whip and is a name used for rural white people that are not very worldly (this is synonymous to the term redneck or hick, as used in other parts of the US), but in this instance it means designing the home in the old way before the invention of electricity) Since it is a Florida house they are more interested in keeping things cool, but it can still provide you some ideas.
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1+1=10
Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 4/30/2006 7:40:00 AM GMT
thank you for your answer, as always you are very complete in your texts and I always take much pleasure has to read you.
Off course, I know already all that you says to me, I plan myself to use part of hydrogen has the gas state for running a gas compressor criogenic to liquify the remainder of produced hydrogen. In same time, this engine could also running an alternator to produce electricity. Like you, I know that all that will generate lose off energy.Aniway, I remain persuaded that the storage of hydrogen liquid(-260 C°) is preferable As an electric storage in the form of batteries.I will carry out tests today with 2 solar collectors which I go connect has a bath of électrolise.As you an idea of salt saturation and of which type of materials I must use for the anode and cathode.
Friendships, Michel
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
I'd rather look at a heat-exchange pump.
(I'm in the process of buying an apartment in a small building-project at the moment, and I will get one such pump installed)
An air-to-air pump will typically return 4x the energy input into it as heat, and while many only gives this efficiency down to about -15(Centigrade), some can operate with a net gan in temperatures as low as -30.
(They cost about $2000 here in Norway, but the estimate is that it can be earned back in 4 - 5 years... )
The fact that they can be trun in reverse and used as ACs in the summer doesn't hurt, either.
There are larger units, either getting the heat from ground-taps(deep, drilled wells) or long tubes sunk down in the ocean can cost in the order of $15.000, but as they may completely heat several houses, the cost can be split with the neighbours. These typically connects to water-based central-heating systems, and can be easily retrofitted in older houses with a central boiler.
But if you want to collect 'free' energy in the summer and store it for the winter, there may be better technologies(read: Less explosive) that Hydrogen.
Just compressing normal air into a large tank, then later using it to run a small air-turbine might be one idea.
(won't give as much energy at one time, but doesn't need to waste energy on electrolysis or on cooling)
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Don't visit my new website...
A lot of things were achieved and forgotten.
I still have one U.S. Government book of award winning designs.
That book, 'The First Passive Solar Home Awards', U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, [noparse][[/noparse]Jan 1979]has the solar calculations. I don't have a scanner or fax. I can snail mail you copies.
Also you might look for an author, John Reynolds from the University of Oregon's Architecture Department too. His books may be out of print, but he led the department in solar research and was nationally recognized.
An engineered figure requires knowledge of the building, the local weather, and the specific location.
First you have to determine your location's climate in terms of Degree-Days/Month. [noparse][[/noparse]Degree-days are based on the variation from the ideal temperature [noparse][[/noparse]say 65 degrees F or 23 degrees C]. This requires detailed local weather information. You also have to calculate at what rate the building will loose heat. Together, you will have an energy requirement on a monthly basis to compare with weather reports.
The Sun's energy is both dependent on the weather and the latitude. Normal monthly weather records provide much of the information. But, the latitude correction changes each month, too.
Oddly, snow country is one of the better places to get high efficencies [noparse][[/noparse]up to 90%] due to the glare from snow.
Fog and overcast are about the worst. Next to a reflective surface, a lake or river is helpful. If trees near the house loose their leaves in the fall that is good too.
Conversion to hydrogen for storage is really unnecessary if it is going to be used as building heat. These houses use concrete walls and floors to collect heat during the day and it is discharged at night. In some cases, hot air is pushed through large gravel storage bins or water tanks are exposed to the sun's heat. Try looking for 'Trombe Wall'.
Along with prudent insulation and thoughtful site location of the building, you can be comfortabe and even toasty warm at 0 degrees C. A BasicStamp could be used as a Home Automation processor for such a system. It would control diurnal window openings and direct air for heat collection in the day time and heat distribution during the night.
But going from Solar panels to electricity to hydrogen to fire has several opportunities for wasting significant percentages of the energy. It would only be truely necessary if one wanted to store hydrogen for weeks or months. On a daily basis, it would be more useful to use the hydrogen for lighting. But with the new bright LEDs, even that seems less than perfect. When you start to consider the BTUs required to heat a house, I fail to see how you could afford that many solar pannels and the equipment to liquify the hydrogen. And it would likely be more effienct to store as electricity and to distribute through electrical heating elements.
When you begin to consider the total amounts of energy that you want to store, they really become a hazard. As we have seen with increasing the electrical storage density by using litium batteries, a mere doubling or tripling of storage produces an explosive hazard. Homes often have huge oil tanks or sizable gas mains to bring in the volumes they use during the winter months.
Please forgive me if I am diverting your project, but the research has been available for quite some time and you can locate good literature that will help you integrate a realiable working system.
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
issue#21 february march 1991 page 17(hydrogen fuell cells)
issue 22 page 26 (hydrogen as fuell)
issue 23 page 16 (fuell cells)
issue 26 page·34(electrolyzers)
issue 32 page 42(hydrogen basics)
issue 33 page 28(cooking with hydrogen)
issue·34 page 26 (heating with hydrogen)
issue 35 page 36 (fuell cell)
issue 39 page 32 (solar hydrogen production by electrolysis)
if you can only get a·couple you defenitly·want issue 26 and issue 39 please keep us informed·I will be intrested in youre progress i have 2kw of solar panels i'm wantnig to build a tracker for just dont have the time
Brian
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There's nothing a good wack with a hammer won't fix
Darn I let the white smoke out again
The Sun moves at a constant and predictable rate of 15 degrees/hour, so a panel mounted on a swivel-stand of some sort, and connected to a small, low-geared motor should be able to do it with no problem.
(All right, you lose a bit of energy in the fact that it also rotates at night, but that is more than compensated for by the increased efficiency compared to fixed-position panels)
Now, having a couple of mirrors to collect and transfer additional power to a fixed-position panel, that could be an interesitng task for a BS2
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Don't visit my new website...
Aniway, i know than many people are looking to me as a crazy man.
Unfortunately for them i produce today with jut only 2 little solar pannel(+/- 20 cm squared each) aproximately volume of 3 cubic meter of hydrogen(at normal temperature) . Engine is running and when i give a look to hydrogen pressure in to my tank, pressure go down for 10 bars each hours.Engine produce a power like+-250 horsepower.My boiler warming to mutch and i don't know how i can sell rest of energy than i dispose.
Some help?
Michel
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
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be cairfull with mirrors heat is a bad thing with photovaltaics both in de rating power out put and damage to the glue that holds the cells to the glass
Brian
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There's nothing a good wack with a hammer won't fix
Darn I let the white smoke out again
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Here's a "how to do it" book:· http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/still/index.html
Post Edited (PJ Allen) : 4/30/2006 6:46:16 PM GMT
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Just asking as the strongest sold legally here in Norway is 60%, and the 'moonshine' can be anything up to 96%...
And $1500 is waaaay over the normal price for a still...
(Say $300 - $500 depending on quality and size)
Of course, distilling alcohol has been a cottage-industry here in Norway for longer than anyone can remember...
(And no, it isn't legal anymore... )
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Don't visit my new website...
200 proof is 100% alchohol, so 60% alchohol is 120 proof... Pure alchohol is also refered to as "White lightning, Sterno, ect"
Bob N9LVu
Keep cool dear friend and give me right answer to my question
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Regards from Belgium,
Michel Dechief.
Engineer and professor at Brussel's university (artificial intelligency)
(You're taking a cheap Biomass and by adding energy, you end up with a powerful liquid fuel which is easy to store and transport)
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Don't visit my new website...
Just a sanity (or insanity) check here........
At optimum, at the equator with the sun falling directly on a collecting panel, the sun provides a radiated flux of about 1,000 watts per square meter.
So, no matter how you cut it, you can't have more than the sun provides, regardless of the intervening conversion mechanisms. In fact, every conversion will have less than 100% efficiency. My guess for the total path of sunshine-to-electrical-to-hydrogen-to-compressed (very "leaky") storage-to-flame would be 1% to 2% at best. So chosing such a method would require 50 to 100 times as large a panel as if one used the sun's heat directly without the intervening conversions.
For winter heating a free standing detached home (at least in Canada and perhaps similarily in Belgium), one needs a furnace to deliver about 100,000 BTU per hour. That, however is not for continuous operation except for the coldest days.
That converts to a peak requirement around 30,000 watts. So if a total conversion efficiency through all the conversion steps is accepted as 1 or 2%, then one would require a solar panel (electrical) capable of 1,500,000 to 3,000,000 watts. That is an approximate area of 150,000 to 300,000 square feet, at a current cost of approximately $750,000 to $1,500,000.
Then of course we need to remember that we also need to generate electricity for hydrogen production for periods when the sun is not shining, like at night, and remember that during the winter, when we need the heat the most, one can only rely on an average of 2 sun-hours per day with up to 5 days of no-sun. So the panels need to be much bigger to accomodate those issues.
Clearly this approach becomes idiotic. The only practical approach is to insulate the house well, and to use direct solar heat as much as possible, as that will be much more affordable and much more effective.
Forget about your electrical to hydrogen approach...... it's just not practical the way you intend it.
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
Post Edited (pjv) : 4/30/2006 11:22:44 PM GMT
I started with the safety issue because there are a lot of young people that follow this forum. Having survived setting myself on fire and blowing myself up in my own youth, it seems the most import thing to emphasize.
I find the 1991 articles a bit interesting, but without a realistic heat budget for an entire house for a year and without significant data on the local variation in solar energy and of the local climate ; you may find yourself spending a lot of money in the wrong direction.
While 1% efficency may be extremely pessimistic, it could easily be below 25% with all the right machinery. The only gas more troublesome to contain than hydrogen is helium. The main reason of inefficency is that each conversion of form has a substantial loss factor. And, if your building is not particularly well insulated and well sealed, the little heat you have will disappear quickly.
Open flames usually require oxygen to be provided from outside in order to resupply what is burned. That brings in an additional mass of cold air to heat, causing great losses. Avoiding this by using heat exchangers adds another layer of loss.
This is all Active Solar Heating [noparse][[/noparse]because you use machines and devices to agressively collect the solar energy]. Generally, Passive Solar Heating has had a better history of success because the machines and devices themselves consume energy as they work to collect and store. I took another look at my old book and it has houses in Vermont that claim 100% solar heat at mid-winter.
Good insulation and proper location of building openings can do most of your heating. Diurnal opening and shuting of the opening is the primary means of collection control. Heat is collected and stored as heat for a minimum of conversion loss and a minimum of equipment involvement.
A few years ago, I was looking into 'solar air conditioning' by using solar ice makers. These devices can actually make ice at night by collection of heat during the day as compressed ammonia gas. But, the simple fact is that the amount of ice produced daily is a mere fraction of the equivalent cooling by an everyday air-conditioner.
I would have found myself sitting next to a block of ice in a 40 degree room.
Similarly, you may be sitting next to a candle in a 0 degree room.
BTW, tracking has to take into account two variables. There are the seasonal shift in the height of the sun and the daily change in direction. This is due to the earth being tilted about 23 degrees from being normal to its path around the sun. Even at the equator, you have this wobble.
And, if you don't wash and clean your solar collectors regularly, performance can easily degrade to 80%. That has been the greatest problem with large scale solar farms. At least with window washing, you get the added benefit of a good view.
And, the easiest way to make 90% or better alcohol is to freeze whatever fermented concoction you have [noparse][[/noparse]even a bottle of 50 proof vodka] and drain off what isn't ice.· It is very, very bad for your stomach lining.[noparse][[/noparse]consider all the discussion of how it damages fuel lines and carburators]
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Post Edited (Kramer) : 5/1/2006 7:42:57 AM GMT
You mention an efficiency of "easily below 25%".
The very best electrical solar panel you can buy today has an efficiency of about 14%..... and that is under "laboratory" conditions with "full equator" sunshine falling squarely on it, and an ambient temperature that is about 70F. Solar panels produce less power when hot. So to get the maximum out, you would have to cool them.....
In STARTING the conversion chain with (approximately) 14%, what magic do you know of where one might even speak of 25% ?????
In my opinion, a practical proposal of sunshine to electrical to hydrogen to compressed state to flame is an absolute non-starter. An experimental curiosity ?, sure, but don't expect to heat your home with it!
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
Somewhere in Virgina there is a nearly energy independent pig farm. The owner grows corn, which he feeds to his pigs. He takes thier waste mixes it with enzymes and bacteria cultures, uses the dead corn stalks to heat the mixture, captures the produced methane from the waste which is burnt to produce electricty. And the waste once exhausted of its methane producing capabilities is used as fertilizer for the corn crop. Pretty much the only waste produced from the entire operation (besides some CO2 emissions·which are in part reclaimed by the corn growing)·is the portion of pigs that is not used by the slaughterhouse, and one day even that may be used in the new process of turning biomass into petroleum oil (high pressure, high heat, replicating in a few hours what takes 100s of thousands of years for nature to do), this process is already being done next to a turkey processing plant where all unused portions of the turkey are turned into oil.
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Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 5/1/2006 3:36:31 PM GMT
Your question of what to do with the excess heat energy you have produced while filling a container with hydrogen, through hydrolisis enabled by a small solar array,at the same time fueling a 250 HP motor that is heating your home ,needs a little clarification.
Perhaps you have stumbled onto a concept unknown to the world,or more likely,the language barrier is a problem.
Please continue your research for the benefit of us all.
Jim Richey
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Thanks, Parallax!
Intesting story on methanol, by a nobel lauriate who says that methanol is cheaper to produce and burns better than ethanol. Warning, he tends to ramble as many professors do [noparse]:)[/noparse].
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http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/07/09/6900033_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html
...This method, I would imagine would need to be VERY carefully controlled, as a recombination of Hydrogen and Oxygen would be just
as easily obtainable at the temperatures involved.
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Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
I peeked at that site, as well as the related article on the "joe cell" with some significant skeptisism, and I'm now convinced they are complete idiots.
Negative electricity.................. Controlling reactions at 5000C (that's nearly the surface temperature of the sun)................ etc. Bah! Gimme a break! You can't believe everyting you read, or at least the way it may be portrayed! If these things were real or practical, and more than a scientific curiosity, Exxon and the boys should be running scared or investing like crazy. I don't see a lot of that happening right now.
Sure, I believe we have not discovered everything yet, not by a long shot; but for practical real world applications such as heating one's house for less money, let's stay somewhat practical.
Just wishing one could jump over the moon doesn't make it so!
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)