Im a CoCo 2 kid myself, I begged for it for 2 years before getting one. It was probably the wisest decision my parents ever made. I saved my lawn mowing money from the entire following summer to buy the Assembler cartridge for it. Always wanted a floppy drive for it (instead of tape) but at $200 and twice the cost of the system itself, it never became a reality.
I'm also a Coco guy. Heck, before the Coco2 even came out, I had modified my Coco1 with 64K RAM (I got some sample 64K DRAMs with gold-plated legs before they were generally available), and I programmed my own boot loader in a 2716 EPROM so I'd actually boot the thing off cassette every time I turned it on. This way I could fix the bugs in the BASIC interpreter (i.e., the old machines claim 1e-19 + 1e19 is 1e-19) and build in my own high-resolution text mode (I preferred 42x24) and other features. I had a blast with that box. I carried that Coco1 with its chicklet keyboard through a year of high school and four years of college and even brought it to graduate school with me before I switched to the Amiga in 1985.
Gentlemen, we are showing our ages!
I owned my first CoCo at age 15, CoCo2 at 17, (and my first C64 system) shortly there after.
I did own a Drive 0, and 1 for the CoCo2, made some hardware mods (replaced the keyboard)...
My C64 and I went far and wide for a long time with mods as well as software... Oh, heck, thoes were the days [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Just tossing my two bits worth into the bit bucket
KK ·
As a suggestion, to keep the thread on topic, we should move all the discussion of old-school technology to the appropriate thread.·· I know it's hard to resist.
Kramer said...
Regarding size of resident in EEPROM Basic Programs, wasn't 2K the all time record?
I think that was the famous Dr. Dobb's Journal 'Tiny Basic' for the 6502 [noparse][[/noparse]about 1987].
Try closer to 1977 - actually, early '76.
Doesn't seem that long, but there it is.
I remember keying in the ASM code, and hacking it to add strings, floats, and even a primitive file manager on "Kansas City Standard" audio tape - at a blistering 300 baud!
Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calisthenics & Orthodontia "Running Light without Overbyte" published at least 4 versions of Tiny Basic in 8080 ASM in 1976.
Wow!, I forgot about the 32 bit words. Changes everything.
I just printed out the PDF from Ramtron for their FM3256. This looks quite interesting, 'a Processor Companion'.
It has 32Kbytes of 8bit RAM without write delays, And a RTC [noparse][[/noparse]real time clock].
Other items are a low voltage reset, a watchdog timer, an early power-fail warning, two 16-bit event counters, and a Serial number with write-lock for security. Suports battery or capacitor backup to the clock [noparse][[/noparse]with alarm]. Event counters can have a battery backup.
A single chip computer needs a clock and RAM, right?
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Chip said...
You've got 512 longs (512 x 32-bit opcodes). That's equivalent to 2k bytes. The Spin interpreter fits in there. BASIC could, too. Kramer said... 2K for a Basic Intrpreter. So I guess 512 bytes per COG is somewhat roomy for a dedicated task or two? Chip Gracey Parallax, Inc.
I have the original Dr Dobb's sitting right here.· I'll get right to it once hardware is released.· Converting from 8080 to Propeller should be an interesting task.· Of course, this makes me want to write a propeller emulator first...
I think you should look at the KIM-1 documentation to get an idea of how limited the TinyBasic was. I also have a PDF on my computer for the Palo Alto Tiny Basic that I can email you if you PM me a good email address. I really don't know where I got it.
In other words, don't bury yourself in the code before you get a feel for the over-all design. I image that many of the Basic instructions are nearly one-to-one relationships with the machine code [noparse][[/noparse]like addition]. Others have new resources [noparse][[/noparse]line Log base 2 for multiplication].
Who knows, you may be able to do it in 1K.
I suspect that the hardest thing would be to go back to 6502 or Z80 code and decypher.
BTW, I would absolutely love a copy of those articles if anyone might have them in a format that can be emailed to me. They add quite a bit of perspective.
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Inaki,
DrDobbs existed long before 1988. It appears that the publisher that took over the magazine didn't retain rights to earlier material, so the trail stops there. It might be that their lawyers wanted to just have a clear date to establish ownership of a lot of software code.
In America, we have a Law of Torts that allows you to sue everyone involved. In this way, the publisher can clearly say it is none of their business. And yes, there were a lot of legal battles going on.
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Actually they published a recopilation with all issues until 1988 in paper, in about 15 thick volumes. The first issue of DrDobbs appears to be January-1976 and a copy of it, in PCX format!, comes in the recopilatory CDs.
Inaki,
Thanks.
I am happy to hear that you can go all the way back with Dr. Dobbs. About two years ago I tried to locate that material and was unable to through their web site. I even subscribed.
I just e-mailed Gadgetman a copy of the Dartmouth Basic documentation. It may have been nearly the first Basic ever used, circa 1964. I learned Fortran on an IBM 360 in about 1968.
I also located a TinyBasic Interpreter for the 8051 that evolved from the Palo Alto Tiny Basic:MCS-51. It may offer an easier access to the 'spirit of Tiny Basic' without having to revive knowledge of early microprocessors.
Hopefully this will all contribute to a TinyBasic Interpreter for the Propeller.
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
I know this is an old thread but I couldn't resist.
Tom Pitman created Tiny Basic for a bunch of chips. He did a less than 2K version for the CDP1802 chip (My favorite and somewhat similar to the SX I think) There is a link to his site in the thread but here it is again: www.ittybittycomputers.com/
I have a couple of EPROMS somewhere with Tiny Basic. Somehwere...
I have recently tried a version of not so Tiny Basic that was produced by a fellow by the name of Mike Riley. He has a Tiny Basic as well as a more rubust version called R/C Basic. This is of course assembled for the 1802 chip as well as his ELF emulator but it might be handy. His R/C Basic does all sorts of neat things like 2 dimensional arrays and contains a few string functions too. Here's the site if it helps: www.elf-emulation.com/software.html
· Perhaps easier than trying to fit an interpreter onto a cog would be to write a compiler which produced some sort of byte-code and create a byte-code interpreter that fit on a cog. You could put the compiler on an external ROM and not worry about how big it got. This should also run faster than a pure interpreter.
· Also be careful about underestimating the size of the external RAM required. I remember maxing out the 16K of my TI99 in a month. With the 32K memory add-on it took an additional 2 months. Given how cheap memory is and non-volatile storage on an MMC card (which amounts to infinite storage for most of us), you might as well start with 1/2 Meg of RAM.
Hmm... I have a number of ideas in this direction, but need more internals info on Prop assembler and the Spin interpreter... ideally, I'd like to be able to leverage the built-in Spin interpreter as much as possible... so what I'd need to know would include the exact format of the Spin objects, how to link them together, and how to generate Prop object code (i.e., build an assembler).
Conceptually, what I have in mind is a hybridization of the basic runtime environment of an HP48, and the Spin/Prop environment.
Hardware-wise, it would be quite similar to the Prop demo board, but with an additional FRAM storage chip socket, no VGA or USB (but with the pins brought to headers), and an extra connector for i2c-protocol peripherals (FRAM cards, drives, USB interface module, etc). The i2c connector would need both power on it, and a buffer such that it would be hot-swappable.
Comments
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·1+1=10
I owned my first CoCo at age 15, CoCo2 at 17, (and my first C64 system) shortly there after.
I did own a Drive 0, and 1 for the CoCo2, made some hardware mods (replaced the keyboard)...
My C64 and I went far and wide for a long time with mods as well as software... Oh, heck, thoes were the days [noparse]:)[/noparse]
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Just tossing my two bits worth into the bit bucket
KK
·
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=464494
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
csavage@parallax.com
Try closer to 1977 - actually, early '76.
Doesn't seem that long, but there it is.
I remember keying in the ASM code, and hacking it to add strings, floats, and even a primitive file manager on "Kansas City Standard" audio tape - at a blistering 300 baud!
Dave
You did save a copy of that magazine?
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Don't visit my new website...
Whipple's & Arnold's Tiny Basic Extended (TBX)
Greeb's Denver Tiny Basic
Mueller's MINOL
Wang's Palo Alto Tiny Basic
Wang's is the most well known and contains the first occurance of copyleft.
Google will provide you with many other versions.
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www.speechchips.com
Speech & Video IC's for BasicStamps
So I guess 512 bytes per COG is somewhat roomy for a dedicated task or two?
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I just printed out the PDF from Ramtron for their FM3256. This looks quite interesting, 'a Processor Companion'.
It has 32Kbytes of 8bit RAM without write delays, And a RTC [noparse][[/noparse]real time clock].
Other items are a low voltage reset, a watchdog timer, an early power-fail warning, two 16-bit event counters, and a Serial number with write-lock for security. Suports battery or capacitor backup to the clock [noparse][[/noparse]with alarm]. Event counters can have a battery backup.
A single chip computer needs a clock and RAM, right?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Edit: And a price?
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Don't visit my new website...
www.ramtron.com
Prices are via a distributor network.
Tiny Basic has one website by the original writer·{I believe he was a Canadian} with the original code.·
The Dr. Dobbs site does not go that far back.
These may point the way.
http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/TinyBasic/
http://users.telenet.be/kim1-6502/
http://users.telenet.be/kim1-6502/tinybasic/tbek.html
http://users.telenet.be/kim1-6502/tinybasic/tbum.html
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Post Edited (Kramer) : 2/28/2006 9:06:51 AM GMT
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www.speechchips.com
Speech & Video IC's for BasicStamps
Does the article have flowcharts and other bits?
And if so, could you scan it?
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Don't visit my new website...
In other words, don't bury yourself in the code before you get a feel for the over-all design. I image that many of the Basic instructions are nearly one-to-one relationships with the machine code [noparse][[/noparse]like addition]. Others have new resources [noparse][[/noparse]line Log base 2 for multiplication].
Who knows, you may be able to do it in 1K.
I suspect that the hardest thing would be to go back to 6502 or Z80 code and decypher.
BTW, I would absolutely love a copy of those articles if anyone might have them in a format that can be emailed to me. They add quite a bit of perspective.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
DrDobbs existed long before 1988. It appears that the publisher that took over the magazine didn't retain rights to earlier material, so the trail stops there. It might be that their lawyers wanted to just have a clear date to establish ownership of a lot of software code.
In America, we have a Law of Torts that allows you to sue everyone involved. In this way, the publisher can clearly say it is none of their business. And yes, there were a lot of legal battles going on.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
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Thanks.
I am happy to hear that you can go all the way back with Dr. Dobbs. About two years ago I tried to locate that material and was unable to through their web site. I even subscribed.
I just e-mailed Gadgetman a copy of the Dartmouth Basic documentation. It may have been nearly the first Basic ever used, circa 1964. I learned Fortran on an IBM 360 in about 1968.
I also located a TinyBasic Interpreter for the 8051 that evolved from the Palo Alto Tiny Basic:MCS-51. It may offer an easier access to the 'spirit of Tiny Basic' without having to revive knowledge of early microprocessors.
Hopefully this will all contribute to a TinyBasic Interpreter for the Propeller.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.speechchips.com
Speech & Video IC's for BasicStamps
Tom Pitman created Tiny Basic for a bunch of chips. He did a less than 2K version for the CDP1802 chip (My favorite and somewhat similar to the SX I think) There is a link to his site in the thread but here it is again: www.ittybittycomputers.com/
I have a couple of EPROMS somewhere with Tiny Basic. Somehwere...
I have recently tried a version of not so Tiny Basic that was produced by a fellow by the name of Mike Riley. He has a Tiny Basic as well as a more rubust version called R/C Basic. This is of course assembled for the 1802 chip as well as his ELF emulator but it might be handy. His R/C Basic does all sorts of neat things like 2 dimensional arrays and contains a few string functions too. Here's the site if it helps: www.elf-emulation.com/software.html
Andrew
· Also be careful about underestimating the size of the external RAM required. I remember maxing out the 16K of my TI99 in a month. With the 32K memory add-on it took an additional 2 months. Given how cheap memory is and non-volatile storage on an MMC card (which amounts to infinite storage for most of us), you might as well start with 1/2 Meg of RAM.
-phar
Conceptually, what I have in mind is a hybridization of the basic runtime environment of an HP48, and the Spin/Prop environment.
Hardware-wise, it would be quite similar to the Prop demo board, but with an additional FRAM storage chip socket, no VGA or USB (but with the pins brought to headers), and an extra connector for i2c-protocol peripherals (FRAM cards, drives, USB interface module, etc). The i2c connector would need both power on it, and a buffer such that it would be hot-swappable.