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How High the Sky? — Parallax Forums

How High the Sky?

PJAllenPJAllen BannedPosts: 5,065
edited 2006-04-20 17:49 in Propeller 1
· Lots of discussion, for sure, but, I was wondering if maybe...·this thingy has a price tag.
· Is it really going to have a propellor-beanie stamped on it?
· Who's it really for?· Hobbyists?· Or is there a core-market in mind?
·

Comments

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2006-02-25 14:32
    I suspect that educational institutions [noparse][[/noparse]which already support other Parallax products] will consider this at least of academic interest.

    It is really wonderful to give something new and way outside the box to your better students.· It empowers them toward doing something innovative with their lives.

    Hobbyist? My experience with teaching English to part-timers is that you always have many more beginners, than experts. Beginners are the biggest market share.· The BasicStamp is a wonderful platform for 12 year old boys and father/son learning.· Anyone can jump into using one just to whip up a programable gadget on a whim.

    Virtual Peripherals and the SX are more appealing to people like me, a 58 year old guy with time. Or to college/university level assembly language education.

    Alternatively, is there a commercial market for this?
    Personally I couldn't say, I am not up to speed on such things. I do supect that it may compliment the SX in someway. They seem to be stretching the envelope at opposite ends. One could be a co-processor for the other. But which is which is still to be determined by the application.

    This is obviously a first release.· Obviously this will morph and change as harvesting its particular power becomes more obvious.· The EEPROM portion which now provides math tables might go into custom applications designed particularly for a specific proprietary use.· Space stations?· Scram jets?· Encryption?·

    We may never know its true destiny.

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    "When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

    ······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

    Post Edited (Kramer) : 2/25/2006 2:39:43 PM GMT
  • Martin HebelMartin Hebel Posts: 1,239
    edited 2006-02-25 14:38
    We can't reveal what PLAX said about the price yet, but if they stick to what they were discussing at the training, it'll be a VERY reasonable cost.

    There are a couple thoughts on who this for, one being that it is pretty much a blank white-board, to do whatever one wish with, much more so than a standard controller where you are locked in by their peripherals. This could range from the home hobbiest to high end developers.

    Also, Chip told us it was his desire to try to put fun back into programming, and I can relate. When I was in HS (77-81) I started programming my Commodore PET in 6402 ASM. It taught me lessons about the ins and outs of processors that have been a benefit throughout my life... and it was fun! I made my own star wars type game directly manipulating the graphics memory map. It didn't take a lot to do it. But with computers always changing and being the complex beasts they are, it's a lot more difficult to do very low level programming and get involved with graphics, sound, etc. Chip's vision was a controller that would be very poteent, yet be simlple enough to let even new people/kids explore the potential.

    As we've heard, it can be a game system in itself (or whatever one can think of), or it can be a fun educational experience for a newbie, far beyond making LED's blink, it can directly drive a TV video.

    My thoughts,
    Martin

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    Martin Hebel

    Disclaimer: ANY Propeller statements made by me are subject to my inaccurate understanding of my limited time with it!
    Southern Illinois University Carbondale -Electronic Systems Technologies
    Personal Links with plenty of BASIC Stamp info
    and SelmaWare Solutions - StampPlot - Graphical Data Acquisition and Control
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2006-02-25 14:47
    Chip has certainly put the FUN back into programing.

    Kudos and lots of admiration. This may be talked about like the first personal computers for many decades to come.

    If this can actually popularize Assembly Language programing, it will be earth shaking. It may do that in the overseas markets, where there are a lot of youths looking for a way up and out of the developing countries -- India, China, and so on.

    I am looking forward to buying at least 3 and giving two to the appropriate department heads of the two universities I teach at. They may not quickly understand it, but I suspect they will want to know more.

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    "When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

    ······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
  • Martin HebelMartin Hebel Posts: 1,239
    edited 2006-02-25 15:06
    One thing to remember where Chip is involved, is that he doesn't do this for profit. He does it because it's a challenge to him, and he sees benefits to hobbyists/industry. I don't think if this were done with pure profit in mind it would ever have gotten done. I'm only speaking from my own assumptions here, but I'm sure there are some at Parallax that saw the BS2 being dwarfed by cheaper and sometimes better stamp-a-likes, and possibly had issues with Chip taking many years and untold expense to take this trip to the stars.

    I've really been re-thinking my teaching for next Fall when I teach my controller ASM/C course. By the end of the semester with a lot of prodding, the students can work with LCDs and other simple peripherals using 8051s or AVRs. I was considering doing that first, then spending the last few weeks with the Prop., but maybe I should re-think my stategy. Introduce the propeller 1st to generate excitement and get them working with highlevel I/O to start, then fall back at the end and show them the more 'standard' architectures. I've got summer to try to pull what I need together, lol.

    The propeller may do for ASM what the BASIC Stamp did for electronics education & programming.

    -Martin

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    Martin Hebel

    Disclaimer: ANY Propeller statements made by me are subject to my inaccurate understanding of my limited time with it!
    Southern Illinois University Carbondale -Electronic Systems Technologies
    Personal Links with plenty of BASIC Stamp info
    and SelmaWare Solutions - StampPlot - Graphical Data Acquisition and Control

    Post Edited (Martin Hebel) : 2/25/2006 3:10:10 PM GMT
  • Bruce BatesBruce Bates Posts: 3,045
    edited 2006-02-25 15:25
    Folks -

    Rumors and conjecture are nothing but that, and that's really all I offer here. There is no basis other than that, that I know of, for the following statement which came from a blog (speaking of rumors!):

    "The final pricing hasn't been set yet, but raw chips (40 dip or 44 LQFP) should be around $20 each. Their whole dev. board kit should be around $200."

    Take that with the grain of salt with which it's offered. Quite a coup, even if the price is only close to that!

    Regards,

    Bruce Bates

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  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2006-02-25 15:31
    How high the Sky?

    If anyone could send a kit over to Burt Rutan ( http://www.scaled.com ) and explain to him the benefits of this chip...

    It might even end up as the main computer of his next spacecraft...

    Then the Sky wouldn't be the limit...

    smile.gif

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    Don't visit my new website...
  • Jon WilliamsJon Williams Posts: 6,491
    edited 2006-02-25 15:54
    Jeff and I actually talked about that around the period of the SpaceShipOne flights. I think we should send a kit to the Mythbusters guys too.

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    Jon Williams
    Applications Engineer, Parallax
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2006-02-25 15:55
    The MythBusters?

    Why?

    They only end up blowing things up...

    smile.gif

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    Don't visit my new website...
  • Alex HobbyAlex Hobby Posts: 4
    edited 2006-04-20 02:03
    Price is King. The chip needn't be dirt cheap to be usable, but it does need to provide value. The current price of $25 is clearly too expensive. If you can't give us some idea of the eventual target price, can you at least let us know when we will know the eventual target price?
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2006-04-20 03:30
    http://www.parallax.com/propeller/

    What do you mean by eventual target price? $25 is the price, and its dirt cheap considering its capabilities. Considering its half the price of most Stamps and more powerful, I dont understand the complaint. If you want a discount, buy them in volume.


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    1+1=10
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,206
    edited 2006-04-20 03:40
    PJ Allen said...
    · Lots of discussion, for sure, but, I was wondering if maybe...·this thingy has a price tag.
    · Is it really going to have a propellor-beanie stamped on it?
    · Who's it really for?· Hobbyists?· Or is there a core-market in mind?
    It's for whoever wants it. The whole time we were developing it and showing it to interlopers at Parallax, they would ask "So, who's your target customer? Who will buy it? What market are you trying to capture?", etc.

    It was made just to be what it is - something neat and different that would make programming FUN again, and make NEW things possible. I'm delighted that now that it's out there (in a few weeks it will be all the way out there), people have definitely picked up on what it's about. I was getting worried for a while that this critical point would get drowned in a market where something new was not going to be welcome, because things had become so dry that only me-too products would have any acceptance. I'm excited that it's gotten the reception that it has.

    Some of the people we've had out to Parallax for training (who now have Propeller chips) are talking about how they are addicted to programming·the Propeller·and they're finding it hard to do their normal job. One guy even asked if Parallax will have a rest home for programmers who can't get over their addiction when they get old. My dad thinks that is a great idea!·We could have programming·workshops and what not,·with·daily mock weddings (for the wives). We'll have to organize this around medication times. We could review moon shot footage before bed time.

    The Propeller chip, in single pieces, will·sell for·$25. The price drops to under $11 at 10k pieces. If our production costs drop, we will drop the price. This chip is·a 53mm2 piece of silicon. It fits into a 9x9mm QFN with only 200um to spare on the sides.·This chip·is ten times the size of many MCUs. It took 60% of a $1000 Altera FPGA to simulate it. I never thought it would sell for $25, but then I never thought we'd make it as nice as it turned out. We will have complete kits for under $200.


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    Chip Gracey
    Parallax, Inc.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2006-04-20 08:44
    Just one thing...

    The beanie MUST be on the chips when it ships...
    Or I'll be returning the two I have in Preorder as soon as they get here...

    I just love the fact that anyone can print such an impudent symbol on their chips.

    smile.gif

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    Don't visit my new website...
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2006-04-20 11:07
    It's pretty amazing how concepts in computing recycle periodically with small (or large) changes, usually driven by shifts in underlying technology and costs. Serial memories were big originally with the Univac I storing its data in tanks of mercury as bursts of sound circulating lengthwise in the tanks through transducers and amplifiers around the tanks. Later, the circulation was with rotating magnetic drums. Now the data is stored in a variety of media, but is still transferred serially (as in I2C/USB/Firewire/Serial-ATA). Likewise, the Cray I had independent, mostly general purpose I/O processors, not too different from the Propeller. The shifts often have to do with the costs of processor speed vs. memory and the costs for connecting them together and with the outside world. One tremendous advantage of the Propeller is that control processes are much easier to understand, therefore easier to program and more reliable when serialized into separate processors with straightforward synchronization as with the HUB rather than combined with interrupts and a "real-time" operating system.
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2006-04-20 13:36
    Gadgetman said...
    Just one thing...

    The beanie MUST be on the chips when it ships...
    Or I'll be returning the two I have in Preorder as soon as they get here...

    I just love the fact that anyone can print such an impudent symbol on their chips.

    smile.gif

    I think Parallax should get some actual beanies made for "Propeller heads" to wear.
    No, I'm not joking. I WANT one.
    Bean.


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    "SX-Video·Module"·available from Parallax for only $28.95 http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=30012


    "SX-Video OSD module"·available·for only·$49.95·www.sxvm.com
    Available now! Cheap 4-digit LED display with driver IC·www.hc4led.com

    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Mythbusters
    ·
  • ElectronegativityElectronegativity Posts: 311
    edited 2006-04-20 14:01
    I once made a propeller beanie out of a small DC motor, and a red propeller from a rubber band powered airplane.

    It provided a little cooling and a lot of entertainment on hot summer days.

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    I wonder if this wire is hot...
  • Kaos KiddKaos Kidd Posts: 614
    edited 2006-04-20 14:12
    I believe the propeller will find a home in the embedded controller, where siumlated multiprocessing doesnt work.
    I also believe the propeller will find a wide market in the entertainment (props and the such), tools (inexpensive O-Scopes, freq readers...) and finally, the expiermentor's heaven. Yes, this is a good thing.
    Has any one considered getting the propeller to the people at ISIS (protous), so they can create the model for it?

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    Just tossing my two bits worth into the bit bucket


    KK
    ·
  • Tim-MTim-M Posts: 522
    edited 2006-04-20 14:14
    I agree Bean, fantastic idea! I invision really high quality beanies too... top notch all the way, and I'll be happy to pay a premium for them.

    Tim
  • Alex HobbyAlex Hobby Posts: 4
    edited 2006-04-20 17:10
    Mouser already has part numbers and pricing up for the Propeller products (I stumbled onto this via Google). They already have quantity discounts on the chips. Proposed quantity prices are as follows :

    1 - $25.00
    10 - $23.10
    25 - $21.25
    100 - $19.50

    These are certainly reasonable enough to use the Propeller for use in boutique applications and the 10K price suggest by Chip of $11 is very reasonable. Clearly, a further cheapening would further widen the market, but I'm sure the Propeller will find it's proponents even at current price levels.
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,206
    edited 2006-04-20 17:49
    Gadgetman said...
    Just one thing...

    The beanie MUST be on the chips when it ships...
    Or I'll be returning the two I have in Preorder as soon as they get here...

    I just love the fact that anyone can print such an impudent symbol on their chips.

    smile.gif

    Yeah, there will be a propeller beanie on the actual chip. It's laser marked, though, so it's not very high-contrast. Nice, bright white markings are done through screen printing, but IC packagers hate this because of the mess. The packager we use in Taiwan·will only do it for special customers. These days,·laser marking systems are very fast, clean, and repeatable. They just lack that nice,·bright look that we love.

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    Chip Gracey
    Parallax, Inc.
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