USB bluetooth

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-26 12:36

Hello to everyone...
Merry holidays!!!

I have resently bought a small blue tooth device in order to make my PC communicate with my K700i...
Can I use this device, somehow with the BS2, in order to connect it with my mobile phone...
I would probably control it by the "Desktop" command from my phone... mostly for navigation...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Batman · 2005-12-26 13:21

I dont really know

Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 12/26/2005 5:27:44 PM GMT

Bruce Bates · 2005-12-26 14:08

Batman -

You have been asked nicely to change your sig (the automatic end of your message) to remove one of the words found therein. I would suggest that you do so, since the gentleman who asked you to do so not only holds ALL THE ACES, but he run this game too! I can't imagine you'd want to be banished from the Forum in the short time you've been here!

Regards,

Bruce Bates

Bruce Bates · 2005-12-26 14:10

Provas -

As you know we'll be happy to help you, but we'll need a good deal more information than you've provided so far. At present we have no idea whether your "small blue tooth device" has the ability to communicate with the PBASIC Stamp platform or not. Some links to the product, or a data sheet would certainly be most helpful.

Regards,

Bruce Bates

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-26 16:58

This all the info I can give you for today...

This picture, as no stores are open...

Tomorrow I should get you more info about the make and data, if I find·any...

Thank you for your repply... This project is a serious one and I want a bit help...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Forrest · 2005-12-26 18:15

The device in your picture is designed to work with a PC and it won't work with a Stamp because of all the overhead (drivers, etc) necessary to communicate with bluetooth devices. If you want to communicate over bluetooth with your stamp, you'll need this
www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=30068 or this
www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=30076

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-26 21:29

For almost 2 years I have been a costumer of parallax products and I think that being in this forum is a constant bombardment of advertisments... Everything is so Parallax... Althought the work they do is far above perfect, they should arouse our creativity... Of course there are some great project done both from parallax and costumers... But I don't think there is no way to interface it... The SX/** sieries... The first thing I was told was "impossible" after that "parallax products"... Sorry but I have to complain... I want to learn more... not what is already known!!!

I'm not to blame anyone... The work here is far more perfect, exellent and so on... I'm just asking for a little bit more creativity!!! That's all!!!

Respectfully, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Forrest · 2005-12-26 22:09

I researched this issue a few weeks ago - Bluetooth is NOT easy to implement IMHO. If you don't believe me - you're welcome to go to http://forums.parallaxinc.com/www.bluetooth.org/spec/ and you can read the Bluetooth spec version 1.2 here - all 1200 pages! http://forums.parallaxinc.com/www.bluetooth.org/foundry/adopters/document/Bluetooth_Core_Specification_v1.2

If you do come up with a low cost way to do bluetooth on a Stamp - please share it with the rest of us.

Whoa - the forum did something strange when adding url links to my message. Hopefully it's fixed now.

Post Edited (Forrest) : 12/26/2005 11:18:26 PM GMT

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-26 22:44

Man, great sh***t

I didn't ever imagine that!!!

Sorry, is the only thing I can say, but I won't equit...

There must be a map about the general wiring of the USB and the commands they use... Start from reading debug results!!! If I activate a device blue tooth to search for other devices, it should give a result!!! Well, no need for words... Thanks for the .pdf and you should hope there is a better future

!!! I just only need the .pdfs for USB wiring and I'll get started!!!

Sorry, about the flame... I should better ask more "friendly" next time...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Chris Savage · 2005-12-26 23:36

Provas said...(trimmed)
For almost 2 years I have been a costumer of parallax products and I think that being in this forum is a constant bombardment of advertisments... Everything is so Parallax... Althought the work they do is far above perfect, they should arouse our creativity...

Provas,

·· The links given were for products made by third parties, NOT Parallax, Inc.· While we carry these items, they are not not our own products.· You asked a question, and a reasonable answer was given.· Most people try to recommend the most likely or easiest solution without thinking about advertising.

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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
csavage@parallax.com

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-27 08:19

Sorry about the above flame... I felt misleaded!!!

Can anyone please give me the general·purpose·wiring of a USB... (Universal Serial Bus)
I want to give a try!!!

Regards, Provas, GReece

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Forrest · 2005-12-27 13:30

The documentation at the bottom of the page has a schematic for a USB to serial tool that you'll probably need to incorporate in your design to communicate with a Basic Stamp

www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28024

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-27 13:48

Well, thanks a lot, man... Sorry for the flame again...

I'll order it for the local distributor!!!

Thanks, again, Provas...

If I can't find the distributor, how much will it cost me to order it directly from Parallax... I live in Greece...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Tom Walker · 2005-12-27 20:42

I've seen several people bemoan the lack of products for using this "simple" protocol (USB), and it seems that there is a lot of misunderstanding about what USB really entails. There are several good references for the details of USB, so I won't go there, (well, I do have to point out that Jan Axelson has published really good stuff) but thinking that getting a "wiring diagram" will solve anything is not the right way to think about this. In order to make USB truly "universal", there is a lot going on that the typical end user is not often aware of. It might be easier to think of each end of a USB connection as being its own independent computer, with its own programming. That is the purpose of these FTDI chips and drivers that you keep hearing about. The USB standard clearly defines "who is able to do what" via its "master" and "slave" designations.

It's not impossible to "roll your own" but there is definitely some good magic there that makes it "look" simple.

<stepping down>

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Truly Understand the Fundamentals and the Path will be so much easier...

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-28 08:22

I'll try to find the product and the I'll elaborate... Thanks a lot for the repply and interest!!!

Only one thing... When a USB device is powered up they sent a recognition message if that it's true what a BS2 is supposed to answer... Will the blue tooth ask for device connectivity to another blue tooth manually... I mean it will ask for IP address, RF frequency and so on...

Well, I'm dedicated to do anything as almost every board in my house is homemade by Provas

Thank you all for your repplies...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Tom Walker · 2005-12-28 16:08

Provas,
I think that you might be running with an incorrect perception of what is happening when you use a Stamp with the Parallax USB product. The Stamp is not "responding" to anything "USB". The FTDI chip that Parallax uses takes the USB "messages" and makes them appear to be nothing more than standard serial to the Stamp. As far as the Stamp is concerned, it thinks it is talking standard serial. All of the USB "magic" (identification, enumeration, etc...) is handled by the driver on the PC end (which makes the PC believe that it is "talking" through a standard RS-232-type serial port), and the FTDI chip on the Stamp end.

HTH

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Truly Understand the Fundamentals and the Path will be so much easier...

Steel · 2005-12-28 18:25

Provas-

There is a great deal more going on with USB than just wiring. yes there are only 4 wires, VCC,D+,D-, and GRD. But USB has 3 layers of drivers associated with it, an entire communication protocol that is required to run a device, and Enumeration and Descriptor requirements. Infact, USB enumeration would NOT BE POSSIBLE with a Stamp. Your Stamp cannot create NRZI Eye Diagrams.

For more information on USB protocol, you can download the USB 2.0 Specification here:
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/

I would suggest reading chapters 5, 8, and 9.

USB requires a 'Host' which has been defined as a PC to lead all of the communication. In order to make your Stamp to work as a host, you would have to get all of the source code for the software drivers, and transfer it into PBasic, which doesn't have the command set to support a full assembly language. You will end up modding your stamp so much that it will no longer be a STAMP module. PIC's aren't designed to be USB Drivers.

The best suggestion is to utilize a FTDI chip, which is a 3rd Party chip, and available through Parallax or other locations. This will still not enable your STAMP to act as a host. This chip is to create your device to appear as a 'Device'. Just remember there is a great deal of coding required for implementing USB, and it probably is not beneficial to use the specific Bluetooth adapter that you purchased. (Sure the adapter may have been $20, but the $7000 that you put in time and energy to get your code and electrical characteristics to function might not be worth it.)

Bluetooth and USB are very large, very complex protocols with multiple layers (3-7) of hardware, firmware, and software. I would not suggest 'diving' into it, unless you are actually developing a product that will go into production to help you make some of your investment back.

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-28 20:16

I knew that the FTDI is the mean of communication!!! The problem is what the communication will be like... The one can't be talking chinese whereas the other greek...

Thanks for your repplies...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-28 20:25

Steel·wrote:
The best suggestion is to utilize a FTDI chip, which is a 3rd Party chip, and available through Parallax or other locations. This will still not enable your STAMP to act as a host. This chip is to create your device to appear as a 'Device'. Just remember there is a great deal of coding required for implementing USB, and it probably is not beneficial to use the specific Bluetooth adapter that you purchased. (Sure the adapter may have been $20, but the $7000 that you put in time and energy to get your code and electrical characteristics to function might not be worth it.)

Bluetooth and USB are very large, very complex protocols with multiple layers (3-7) of hardware, firmware, and software. I would not suggest 'diving' into it, unless you are actually developing a product that will go into production to help you make some of your investment back.

I have been using Atmel microcontrollers for a time now... It's not difficult for me to use Assebly ( but I still not know assebly, through BASCOM AVR ) Anything that it is must to be done will be done... I know here in my city many good electricians and programmers who can help me with the drugery... All I want is your support for coding the BS2!!!

Thank you again for your repplies...
Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Tom Walker · 2005-12-28 20:34

From the sound of your posts, the BS2 might not be the best option. It is not possible to program the Stamp in assembly. The Stamp uses an interpreted language called PBasic. Currently, the only way to get the Stamp to "talk" USB is with a helper chip to handle the low-level protocol stuff...and even then, only as a "slave" device.

In short, you can't make the Stamp do what you are proposing...

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Truly Understand the Fundamentals and the Path will be so much easier...

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-29 09:59

No one has ever tried to use this USB to stamp device for what ever!?!?!?
All I'm asking is a general purpose code for this device and how to establish communication links...
Even if get nothing in the end I'll still have a new device and some usefull piece of code...

Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Steel · 2005-12-29 23:25

Provas...I don't think you are really listening.

The BS2 is not Physically capable of handling the USB command Set Electrically or on the protocol level. Neither is any PIC.··If you have not looked at the USB electrical and Protocol levels, then do not respond with "The one can't be talking chinese whereas the other greek..." when they clearly are. I would suggest reading up on what NRZI communications versus UART communications.·· The first issue is that the BS2 has a maximum communication speed of 38.4kbps.· USB 1.1 LOW SPEED requires at least 12Mbits/second.· (high speed = 480Mbits/second)

If you had looked that up, you would see the wiring that you are looking for, and the interface for device integration.· you would also learn that one is talking chinese, whereas the other greek.

Please don't condescend to us because you feel that we haven't tried USB with a stamp. Your post reads to me just like "Hey, I heard I can make my car float by buying a $20 muffler...I can't Believe none of you guys can help me do it."

Again, I would suggest reading Chapters 5, 8, and 9 of the USB protocol. This would be your first step to integrating a USB device to a USB Host. (you won't be using a BS2 for this application. You will need to develope a LLP interface for the USB.)

You will also have to get the Bluetooth spec for the bluetooth command set.

Remember...Bluetooth and USB 'appear' easy to the user, because there is a huge amount of development to make them seem that way.· The development that you will have to do.

Post Edited (Steel) : 12/30/2005 12:08:51 AM GMT

Tricky Nekro · 2005-12-30 06:15

I know I have read nothing so far... sorry, I had to built some development boards...
I know it's a little bit impossible, so many post telling me there is no way to do it... I'm not disappointed through... I have found some great docs so far...

Consering your repply...
I'm not willing to make my BS2 float with just a addmodule... As I aim for budget, cause transportation fees are double of the real cost of the products, I'll try to fight to the end...

Thank you all for your time you speand with me which ,unfortunately ,for me, was fruitless...
Regards, Provas, GReece

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-Rule your Destiny-
--Be Good. Be Bad. Be Provas--

Forrest · 2005-12-30 12:54

Seems like you've come full circle. Bottom line is you CAN use your Basic Stamp with Bluetooth - but you'll need to invest in one of the Bluetooth devices that I linked to above (see the 6th message in this post), or a similar device.

USB bluetooth

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