ELAB-080 Oscilloscope
John R.
Posts: 1,376
I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to use the ELAB-080 Oscilloscope from www.dynoninstruments.com/.
It is a PC based, 80MHz, dual channel, logic analyzer, signal generator, etc. I beleive the analog capture bandwidth is 60MHz.
At $495.00 US, including probes, etc., this looks like a good deal. I'm looking for either confirmation, or some input to go another route.
My second choice at present would be the PicoScope 2202 that can be found at www.pc-oscilloscopes.com/2202.htm for $350.00, but that is without probes.
I would really not like to find myself replacing this purchase because I made a mistake...
Thank you very much for any advice.
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John R.
8 + 8 = 10
It is a PC based, 80MHz, dual channel, logic analyzer, signal generator, etc. I beleive the analog capture bandwidth is 60MHz.
At $495.00 US, including probes, etc., this looks like a good deal. I'm looking for either confirmation, or some input to go another route.
My second choice at present would be the PicoScope 2202 that can be found at www.pc-oscilloscopes.com/2202.htm for $350.00, but that is without probes.
I would really not like to find myself replacing this purchase because I made a mistake...
Thank you very much for any advice.
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John R.
8 + 8 = 10
Comments
The trade off seems to be a very well established company with good software and a whole product line.
I am a bit wary of computer interfaced oscilloscopes that are new releases from a group of engineers that just introduced the product. It is too easy to go out of business and leave you without support. Is ELAB's company a recent startup?
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
My concerns are inline with the points you bring up. I want all I can get, but can't afford to buy this twice
The only bright side to this, is that they have a long time "sister company" that makes avionics instrumentation.
I'm looking at a couple other PICO products, and still mulling things over. Still, in terms of "bang for the buck" the ELAB unit is attractive. By the time you add probes to the PICO 2202, you're talking less than $100 more for the ELAB, and get the logic analyzer, wave form generator and power supplies thrown in. I'm not so sure how much I need a wave form generator, but the logic analyzer and power supplies sure would come in handy.
This purchase may get put off until after the holidaze.
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John R.
8 + 8 = 10
Having said that, a few notes here:
To my mind, the main features of a DSO to look at are sampling rate, bandwidth, and storage size. Since you are looking at these two particular units, I will discuss the factors to look at here and what that means in your case.
Sampling rate limits are based on the Nyquist Theory: the maximum signal frequency you can sample reliably is half the maximum sampling rate minus one clock. The ELAB unit, at 80MHz, will allow you to sample frequencies just under 40MHz. The Pico unit, at 20MHz, works for less than 10MHz, a dismally low figure for digital work.
The bandwidth for the ELAB is 60MHz, which to my mind is an acceptable low end for digital work. Unfortunately, the 40MHz sampling limit suggests that this will largely go wasted. The Pico, at 2MHz, is only for low frequency work, like audio and switching supplies.
I think 100MHz would be better for real embedded work, but the sampling rate hase to be twice that to use all of that bandwidth.
The storage is a weak spot for both of these. 32k, at the highest sampling rates, gets you only a very small data collection to look at, and pretty much reduces the logic analyzer to near unusability. However, if this is per channel, and one channel can use all 65k (the specs suggest this is what's available in total), then this may actually be usable in a limited way.
Both have limited resolution (8 bits), limited triggering capability (neither appears to have a seperate trigger input), and will never replace a true analog o-scope, although ELAB actually quotes specs for "analog work".
Based on a limited budget consideration, my recommendation is the ELAB, hands down. The Pico, with its 2MHz bandwidth, is right down there with used toilet paper. If you can see spending a little more ($700) for much better performance I'd go with the ELAB 3204. Even though it has a lesser bandwidth, it has a much superior storage space of 256k. I might even consider the 3205 for its higher bandwidth and 512k storage, but at well over a grand, you could almost consider buying a low end brand name portable o-scope.
By the way, have you checked Ebay? I have found outstanding units for half the asking price because it's new to the market and the distributor wants exposure. I have purchased a 34 channel 500MHz logic analyzer with outstanding capabilities for a song because no one appreciated the possibilities (I guess). I highly recommend you check it out.
my 2 centavos.
Happy holidays!
kenjj
I wish that Ebay could really be useful for me, but in Taiwan I have to get an account in Chinese with a Taiwan credit card. Too much of a language and culture barrier to handle it all. It seems the internet is aware of my location and won't allow me to register with a friend's address in the U.S.A. either.
I just don't fit the software.
Your points are well taken. It seems all to frequent in marketing that once a good name is established, the product diminishes in value. The cycle seems to have gotten shorter and shorter in technologies. I still am back on Techtronics scopes being quite wonderful.
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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)
······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
I have been working on a project lately and have two of these ELAB-080 units. They sample up to 100Ms/s however sampling above 80Ms/s is not supported by the company. They also record up to 64k data points per channel (the demo only does 32k but your program can do 64k). Passing 64k data points per channel can be extremely slow over USB 1.1, however you can retrieve every x number of points to match the resolution of your screen, etc. i.e. get every 10th data point if all you're doing is displaying it on the screen. Dynon's demo ap does this for you. I have been writing software in VC++ to control and use the ELAB for a specialized application. Dynon makes available a DLL file to interface with the ELAB unit which doesn't seem to work at all in VB and I'm having difficulties implementing it in VC++. I was able to get my program working for the most part on my old clunker laptop but once transferred to my fast desktop system it no longer worked reliably. Perhaps it's just my bad code
Post Edited (Robert Darlington) : 12/11/2005 6:30:27 PM GMT
Aside from trying to program with the scope (I have enough programming projects going), how has the scope worked for you? I'm really up in the air on this, to the point of delaying my purchase while I'm pondering. At this time, I'd quite honestly be more confortable with one of the Pico scopes, but in terms of "bang for the buck", the ELAB sure looks like a good deal.
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John R.
8 + 8 = 10
As far as using Dynon's demo program, it seems okay. It's under development and they come out with new versions from time to time. Dynon's programming crew seems somewhat responsive, and I've worked with them a few times in the past on bugs I've found which they were quick to deal with. I'm very much a digital guy and not an analog guy so I'm probably not the best person to talk to. With some tinkering you can use this scope for a lot of things if you take the time to learn it just right.
On the other hand, some things I couldn't get to work right at all. I spent a heck of a lot of time trying to get the AWG portion of the unit which also controls the logic outputs to trigger the DSO by running a jumper between one of the logic lines and the DSO trigger line. I was working at around 10MHz which is the limit for the thing. (10 data points to make a sine wave times 10million samples per second = 100 million samples per second -the limit of the waveform generator). Perhaps a 10MHz clock is too fast for the DSO trigger, but it shoudln't be. I had to fall back to triggering on a rise of a certain voltage, say 0.25V on one of the DSO inputs. This is less than ideal because I'm sending a signal out and comparing and timing the difference between the output and (which I read on DSO channel 1) and the input that comes in a short delay later (which I read on DSO channel 2).
Long story short, if you need a DSO (as compared to an analog, non-storage scope), and if you need an arbitrary waveform generator, I don't think there is much else on the market that will come close to what this thing can do. I don't use mine with the software from Dynon, other than to double check functionality. Occasionally the thing likes to lock up and I can't tell if it's something I did or if it's the cabling, etc, so I just start their ap and I can see right away that it's a problem that requires a power cycle on the ELAB. Worst case you buy one, use it, don't like it, and then return it if it doesn't meet your needs. If by chance you are in the state of New Mexico, I would be happy to let you take a look, run some tests and the like.
Thanks for the feedback, it is helpful. The return policy may make this thing a "go", and that's part of why I'm waiting. My wife has me doing some remodeling, and if I ordered it now, I wouldn't have much time to try it out.
Thanks for the offer of a visit, but up in the land of the frozen trundra and cheese (Wisconson). I'm about to go get depressed watching the Packer Lions game. It's been a rough year.
I'v got to do a little more looking at some of the other Pico models yet. I am after both a DSO and analog (different applications). I will need to find a "one does it all", at least for now. On the plus side, most of my anticipated uses are are "comparative". This is how option "A" looks and works, and option "B" is the same (or different). Some work on original projects, some "reverse engineering".
I need the thing to serve my needs for at least 2 years or so.
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John R.
8 + 8 = 10
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLUKE-PM3380B-100MHZ-COMBISCOPE_W0QQitemZ7571846542QQcategoryZ104247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This is a 100MHz, 2 channel Fluke/Philips o-scope. They claim to be a professional shop, and have checked it out (whatever that means!) What makes this so interesting is that it will do both analog and DSO work! Power it up, and it's DSO. Press the orange button, and it's analog. Press again, it's a DSO. Has more functions, features and capabilities then you can shake a stick at. I own the PM3394A, the 4 channel version, rated 200 MHz, but costs $2000+! However, this is starting at $50 less then the ELAB, and will blow·the ELAB·out of the water, 'scope-wise. Available for bid for 6 days as of this writing.
THE BAD STUFF: Shipping costs are $80 or $100 to the US, depends on how fast you want it. It comes from Israel, which means a long ship time. The reviews for these guys are 100 %, so is probably safe. Also, it doesn't say if there are probes or manuals. The original probes have a readout pin and a special command switch, and·are few and far between, and drop-dead expensive ($250, from Germany, after much searching). Suitable 10x, 100MHz+ probes are available from $10 to $150, with some searching, from Fluke, Philips, or 3rd party manufacturers. Manuals come up on Ebay all the time.
MORE: It has only one function, an o-scope, and does it well, but won't do the multiple functions of the other devices you're looking at, like the ELAB. Eh! You need a really good 100MHz (my minimum) 'scope to do any real work, and this one is the cream.
Hope this helps.
Happy holidays!
kenjj
I also have a bad time to decide what to buy to myself for the Christmas. Elab-080 or BitScope BS310U (www.bitscope.com) ? I am looking for something small that can be used for voltage measurement over longer period. All the other features like DSO, LA, AWG (both units) and PWR, CLK (Elab only) would be nice addition and sometime_definitelly_very_useful.
Which one to pick ??? Elab seems to have more features, faster sampling, but less mature code and less memory. Bitscope has only 8 bits LA, only one DSO channel is available when AWG is used, has lower sampling period (but wider analog bandwidth), is more expensive (one would need to buy scope probes and LA POD separately) but has 4 times more memory, seems to be more accurate on low frequencies and periodic signals, seems to come with more mature sw and may have better support from user community (eg. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bitscope/)
Which one would you pick if somebody gives you the choice to take one of these units for free ?
Thanks a lot for any advice.
JP
If you delve deep enough into their pages, you'll discover they practically give the design away, with schematics and a theory of operation!
Happy holidays!
please do not do that to me ;-( I have·almost·decided to go with Elab. It is true that Bitscope comes with schematics and you can·build your own expansion device. However,·LA analyzer probes·costs another $39 and·2 o-scope probes on·eBay·$30~$40. It does not have digital outputs, programmable power source and programmable CLK sources (I know I know, I could build them, but...) Moreover, only one DSO input can be used if AWG is used.
Well, thanks·for your opinion·(seriously) and I will continue with searching and thinking.
Merry Christmas,
JP
·
I do not promote Elab (I love Bitscope's 128Ksamples memory and supposedly better analog channels), I only suffer from indecisiveness.
In the end you go with the features you want. Sorry if I upset you in any way.
Happy holidays!
kenjj
where did you see that Elab does have 128k per channel ?? (see http://www.dynoninstruments.com/docs/ELAB-080specs.html) Bitscope has 128kSamples for analog and 128kS for digital.
...
I see ! the post above reads that, but it should have 32KS according the info everywhere on Dynon Instruments site (dll documentation too). If it should have more, even if for one channel use only, why they would not advertise that ?
The problem is that I currently need virtually DC measurement over long period of time. BitScope seems to fit better here. On the other hand Elab may have more functionality (with exception of memory and periodic signals bandwidth) <sigh>
Cheers,
JP
PS. Do not worry about upsetting me, I can do that fine myself.
channels as one. My bad! After seeing his post I went back to their site and confirmed the 64k (hazy on this) per channel.
Anyways, reacting to your mention of wanting to do data logging, let me introduce you to the LabJack:
http://labjack.com/products.html
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
LabJack U12 -- $119 Quantity 1 -- USB data acquisition and control device with 8 12-bit analog inputs, 2 analog outputs, 20 digital I/O, and
a 32-bit counter. DB-25 connection for 16 of the digital I/O. All other connections use included screw terminals. With thousands of
satisfied users, the original LabJack U12 has proven itself reliable, robust, and easy to use.
END DESCRIPTION
Like the mills of God, it works slow, but grinds exceedingly fine. And it's not terribly expensive. It has a lot (not all) of the functions
you can find in the ELAB, BitScope, et al, but are reaaallll slow. However, eight 12-bit ADCs will get you a reaaalll precise data logger.
And it will measure -10V to +10V. Just go there and check it out. Perhaps this will do what you want for now and give you a chance to
save up for something grander in a test instrument.
Happy Holidays!
kenjj
Weird, I found 32kSamples per channel only (see the last Q at http://www.dynoninstruments.com/docs/ELAB-080FAQ.html#Q8)
Thanks for LabJack link. I may eventually stay with something like that till I decide which DSO I like. When we talk about data logging, this one·looks interesting too:
http://www.design-gateway.com/english/products_EthernetIO.htm
Merry Christmas to all,
JP
--Bob Darlington
GetSerialNumber = (GETSERIALNUMBER)GetProcAddress(hDLL,"?GetSerialNumber@@YA_NPAJ@Z");
is now:
GetSerialNumber = (GETSERIALNUMBER)GetProcAddress(hDLL,"GetSerialNumber");
They also say that the lack of a trigger will no longer lock up a VI (labview virtual instrument). I haven't had the time to test this yet, but whenever I'd poll for data before the DSO was triggered it would lock my program. I had to tell it to roll the triggering previously to prevent lockups. We'll see how it goes with the new version.
http://www.x-division.com/elab/
This was written in MS Visual C++ v6 and should work right out of the box. Included is the latest (as of 3/1/06) dll, source code, and a compiled copy in one of the subdirs.
Post Edited (Robert Darlington) : 3/1/2006 5:28:42 PM GMT
I really get alarmed when I read that somebody want to buy ELAB. Please, let me to express my hard opinion about this product:
1. 32KB is really small amount of memory.
2. Unique ineffective and buggest software. In the moment I use the last one: 01.08.00.
2.1. If somebody try to use it with 2 hands only?... And use it succesfully? There is no (one at least one!) shortcut.
2.2. If somebody try to see more data up, down or left and right? You can enlarge diagrams window to fill whole screen, but what mater? You will the same info, the same number of samples, just scratched. No chance to print some piece of diagram larger than current display view, because it is fixed! The printer itself is not supported.
2.3. If somebody try to change the collors in the windows? - full fail! There are some config files, instead simple dialog... but how to say other: good soft team!
2.4. If somebody wonder why lines looks so strange? The answer is simple: No interpolation is applyed anywhere in diagram windows. The samples are just connected with straight lines. Here is place to congratulate the dynon's software team: sometimes, mostly when must be, the lines are thin or thick dependance of number of data and resolution.
2.5. Again about lines. Just move the mouse out of diagram windows... yes the mouse is out, but lines stay...
2.6. If somebody wonder why in one zoom (ex.10mV/div) readed max and min values of sinus signal from calibration generator are 20mv, but in other resolution (20mv/div) min and max values are totaly different (30mv, 50% growth)? The answer is again totaly simple: Calibration team work very well, resposible and qualitary. Like whole Dynon team I will say.
2.7. If somebody try to use auto mode? Please do not do it!
3. The elab show instability work in huge size. Ex. as you work you will get strange messages like these: "No Power...", "USB connection is broken...", or "Power supply 1(2) is overloaded" (in fact they are inactive and disconected). But, can you image what should happen when you want to check the diagrams on power lines (3.3v or 5v and consumation about 100mA) when your development device is turned off, or on - No Chance (no message as this is added in elab soft, but I think they have to add it!) I will say! In case like this in the status bar message "Cancelling upload" will appear, followed by "Ready". The truth No Chance situation. Due to "stabile" work you must have fun to unplug and plug the cables, to restart soft any number of times, just call some number [noparse]:)[/noparse].
4. To see new elab soft revision is like to see comet in the sky.
5. The communication with dynon is like to speak with blind and deaf man. The only communication that I had was when I order it. In case of ordering you will take response - be sure!
I have hard suspicion that this very cheap, but multifunctional device is home, one man made, product.
In conclusion these my notes are only on DSO and LA using. I am afraid to use the others [noparse]:([/noparse]
My hard advise is: Do not buy it. It will be lose of money, nervous and ... who know what other. You are not so rich to buy the cheap. This is as I had listen british proverb - exactly said for this product.
And at the end, I beg you, forgive me about my English.
That being said, I'm the first to say that Dynon's documentation sucks....well, is lacking content anyway. They've been incredibly responsive to my bug reports, questions, etc. I've seen the lockups you're taling about, however Dynon distributes their software as a demo on what this thing can do, not a fully featured software package. I assure you that Dynon is more than just a one man show. Have a look here to see the other things they do: http://www.dynonavionics.com/
The software that I wrote doesn't lock up. Ever. I don't get those messages you talk about with anything but the software written by Dynon -which again is just a demo ap. Sadly, the documentation problem is so bad right now that their current DLL doesn't match the documentation in parts so that you could never get a program working. They really need to spend an hour on this to straighten it out.
tkd
kenjj