Jon Williams (Parallax) said...
It has been a topic of conversation and is being considered, but there are no definitive plans or announcements at this time.
This question came up about 6 months ago, and the major issue at the time was if Parallax develops a USB SX-Key, they will discontinue the serial version. Quite a few people said they didn't want this to occur to maintain compatibility with older systems (plus a few didn't want the extra cost), especially since they sell a USB to serial conversion cable. I'm personally ambivalent about it.
The point you make is an important one. You can see the position we can get ourselves into by looking at the BASIC Stamp Starter Kits. Is ten options enough to get somebody started? This is a result of creating packages requested by our customers, and for specific distribution channels. Ultimately all this achieves is mass confusion for the newcomer to our products. Simplicity is clarity (and lower cost, too, due to higher volume manufacturing any given product).
In the case of the SX-Key, USB v. serial has the same implications for Parallax.·Two tools = 4 to 6 kits in distribution, on the shelves, confusion for the customer whereas one tool is half the confusion.
Gerard0 said...
The use of RS-232 Port it's become obsolete, all the new Laptops for example don't have this port, but they have several USB. Just an idea.
While this is true (Laptops with no serial but USB),·USB (pc/laptop side) to Serial converters are readily avaialble.· Going the other way (USB on the "client") side isn't as common (Given all that is required for USB, I don't know if it is even possible/practicable.)
I also·suspect the·RS-232 interfce is less expensive than USB.
Gerard0
Agreed, but people still use old systems which predate USB (several stated they used 486 or P1 boxs for development), as an aside many scientific circles still use MS-DOS for RTOS systems. For those doing development on laptops, use of Parallax Stock#:·800-00030 rectifies the lack of a serial port issue. Finding USB cards compatible with older hardware and operating systems is a more difficult task. Like I said, personally I don't care, Im just regurgitating what has been stated by others in the past.
And in response to John's speculation, a USB SX-Key would be more expensive, by the very fact that a FTDI chip would have to be incorporated onto the board (chip cost + PCB space).
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Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 11/7/2005 7:04:00 PM GMT
Paul Baker said...
very fact that a FTDI chip would have to be incorporated onto the board (chip cost + PCB space).
But, by implementing the SX-Key, and the FTDI chip the FTDI VCP drivers could be utilized if the EEPROM were flashed with the same PID/VID as the usb to serial converter uses.·This way, the SX Key would show up as a comm port...·· ...no software change
Or, use the chip, and flash the FTDI EEPROM with a different PID/VID (including parallax info) and utilize the FTDI direct drivers, which have a software interface·that mimics the windows serial port calls. The PC software change should be easy relativley painless...
The really reason to do this would be to use the USB for power to run the SX-Key. Then you could then·debug target devices at any voltage...···· ...with the various system voltage around, this would be a real big·plus (Hint, Hint, Jon)··· ...Also, low power devices with limited power supplies could be reprogrammed/debugged....··· ...but you guys know this already!
I vote for leaving it an RS-232 and just adding a line to the SX-Key product pages for a USB converter.
Ken is right, it is a nightmare trying to help people select what kit to get. I just went through it a couple of weeks ago with the WAM kit. Note how the entry level WAM kit (RS-232) is available from Radio Shack for $80 but the USB WAM kit is something like $150 (has an extra book). The converter is only $30?
In other words, Ken has to weigh his costs against market demand. Personally, I think he is doing a great job keeping prices low. Once you have a SX-Key, you unit cost is extremely low. SX18's are less than $2. How much cheaper can you get!! And if you want a cheaper price than that, negotiate for a hundred of them (I did) because Ken and friends will give you a great price.
Now if I could only figure out how to connect the Siteplayer Ethernet to the SX18 I'd have a SUPER device. Hmmm. Let's see that would be project # .....
I vote for RS232 personaly, like·a lot of others I'm using an older laptop for development, and it doesnt have usb at all. If I get a newer laptop I'll happily pick up a usb to serial converter..
Hey Dan, how about developing a USB SX-Key backpack, either based off the USB2SER board, or a custom one? I do agree that using USB power provides an innovative workaround for programming sub 5V SX systems. I don't know if it can be done without modifications to the SX-Key though, perhaps a cleverly designed header that has a surface mount diode inserted into the socket for Vdd will work.
Parallax may decide to do it at some point. They may not. It's easier and cheaper both for them and for easily confused users to keep things as they are right now. As serial ports die off through attrition, the pressure will mount for USB solutions for the SX, I'm sure of it. We don't have it today, but we will someday.
Paul: A multi-voltage power supply (<400mA or so) wound't be too hard if one put a serial DAC, a transistor and a small microcontroller onto the board. THink micropower active linear supply
-dave
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This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
It is my understanding that industry wide there has been so much h... Raised about the lose of serial ports on laptops that panasonic has heard the screaming and has serial ports on all of their tougbook series made for the industrial arena.. I think my next one, if i live long enough, will be a cf-51 or equivelent. No more ibm thinkpads for me. Not since china is taking them over.
Otherwise i think it is cheaper to buy one ftdi chip for each of us than to have the additional cost and complexity of having only usb. Those adapters are already here for usb to serial, but there are noe and probably never will be serial to usb for the rest of us. I will be putting 16 serial ports on my new linux box.
Paul Baker said...
Hey Dan, how about developing a USB SX-Key backpack, either based off the USB2SER board, or a custom one? I do agree that using USB power provides an innovative workaround for programming sub 5V SX systems. I don't know if it can be done without modifications to the SX-Key though, perhaps a cleverly designed header that has a surface mount diode inserted into the socket for Vdd will work.
I've thought about that. It could be done relativley easily. The problem is time.
One could easily provide enough power to run the SX-Key from a USB port, the only issue
is making sure that your FTDI device notifies windows of the level of current that the device
draws (This is just an EEPROM value that needs to be programmed/changed).
Again, just takes some time.
My vote is for a USB key.·With the number of devices that I have which are serial, even the
USB/Serial converter becomes a pain (Not all software packages will allow the use of
Com5 or higher, which is a major factor for me wanting as many USB devices as I can get!)
USB is the way of the future!·I'd gladly pay an extra $30 or $40·to have a USB key.
For laptops (if time is an issue): http://www.hacker-technology.com/3479/3548.html
The CF232-5V outputs 5V on DB9M pin9. You could
power the sxkey from that (requires some soldering I guess).
regards peter
I use the sx-28, and have never worked with stamps. will the parallax usb2ser device
work on the sx-28? are there and other parts needed to make it work?
Gerard0
Posts: 2
Comments
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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
-Dan
·
Sounds good.
RoboGeek
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world,
those that know binary and those that don't.
Formerly bugg.
www.parallax.com
www.goldmine-elec.com
www.expresspcb.com
www.startrek.com
·
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·1+1=10
The point you make is an important one. You can see the position we can get ourselves into by looking at the BASIC Stamp Starter Kits. Is ten options enough to get somebody started? This is a result of creating packages requested by our customers, and for specific distribution channels. Ultimately all this achieves is mass confusion for the newcomer to our products. Simplicity is clarity (and lower cost, too, due to higher volume manufacturing any given product).
In the case of the SX-Key, USB v. serial has the same implications for Parallax.·Two tools = 4 to 6 kits in distribution, on the shelves, confusion for the customer whereas one tool is half the confusion.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I also·suspect the·RS-232 interfce is less expensive than USB.
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John R.
8 + 8 = 10
Agreed, but people still use old systems which predate USB (several stated they used 486 or P1 boxs for development), as an aside many scientific circles still use MS-DOS for RTOS systems. For those doing development on laptops, use of Parallax Stock#:·800-00030 rectifies the lack of a serial port issue. Finding USB cards compatible with older hardware and operating systems is a more difficult task. Like I said, personally I don't care, Im just regurgitating what has been stated by others in the past.
And in response to John's speculation, a USB SX-Key would be more expensive, by the very fact that a FTDI chip would have to be incorporated onto the board (chip cost + PCB space).
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·1+1=10
Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 11/7/2005 7:04:00 PM GMT
Or, use the chip, and flash the FTDI EEPROM with a different PID/VID (including parallax info) and utilize the FTDI direct drivers, which have a software interface·that mimics the windows serial port calls. The PC software change should be easy relativley painless...
The really reason to do this would be to use the USB for power to run the SX-Key. Then you could then·debug target devices at any voltage...···· ...with the various system voltage around, this would be a real big·plus (Hint, Hint, Jon)·
-Dan
·
Ken is right, it is a nightmare trying to help people select what kit to get. I just went through it a couple of weeks ago with the WAM kit. Note how the entry level WAM kit (RS-232) is available from Radio Shack for $80 but the USB WAM kit is something like $150 (has an extra book). The converter is only $30?
In other words, Ken has to weigh his costs against market demand. Personally, I think he is doing a great job keeping prices low. Once you have a SX-Key, you unit cost is extremely low. SX18's are less than $2. How much cheaper can you get!! And if you want a cheaper price than that, negotiate for a hundred of them (I did) because Ken and friends will give you a great price.
Now if I could only figure out how to connect the Siteplayer Ethernet to the SX18 I'd have a SUPER device. Hmmm. Let's see that would be project # .....
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John J. Couture
San Diego Miramar College
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·1+1=10
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=7&m=56444&g=56490
Parallax may decide to do it at some point. They may not. It's easier and cheaper both for them and for easily confused users to keep things as they are right now. As serial ports die off through attrition, the pressure will mount for USB solutions for the SX, I'm sure of it. We don't have it today, but we will someday.
Paul: A multi-voltage power supply (<400mA or so) wound't be too hard if one put a serial DAC, a transistor and a small microcontroller onto the board. THink micropower active linear supply
-dave
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This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
On your page there is a picture of an SX48 and the FTDI chip (chip used in the USB converter) on the same PCB.· What product is that?
http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/products/ftdi/ftdi_chips.asp
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John J. Couture
San Diego Miramar College
I got your private message but have yet to reply.
On the page you reference you're looking at a USB Oscilloscope (SX48 and FTDI chip).
Have a good evening,
Ken Gracey
Otherwise i think it is cheaper to buy one ftdi chip for each of us than to have the additional cost and complexity of having only usb. Those adapters are already here for usb to serial, but there are noe and probably never will be serial to usb for the rest of us. I will be putting 16 serial ports on my new linux box.
73
spence
k4kep
One could easily provide enough power to run the SX-Key from a USB port, the only issue
is making sure that your FTDI device notifies windows of the level of current that the device
draws (This is just an EEPROM value that needs to be programmed/changed).
Again, just takes some time.
My vote is for a USB key.·With the number of devices that I have which are serial, even the
USB/Serial converter becomes a pain (Not all software packages will allow the use of
Com5 or higher, which is a major factor for me wanting as many USB devices as I can get!)
USB is the way of the future!·I'd gladly pay an extra $30 or $40·to have a USB key.
-Dan
·
http://www.hacker-technology.com/3479/3548.html
The CF232-5V outputs 5V on DB9M pin9. You could
power the sxkey from that (requires some soldering I guess).
regards peter
·
work on the sx-28? are there and other parts needed to make it work?
herman
I blew up my first SX52 prototype by overlooking this!
Regards, Hugh