'SX Stamp'....
StampUSR
Posts: 48
Just as a suggestion but any chance for a sort of 'SX Stamp' in the future?
More or less be the same as one of the faster Basic Stamps minus the on chip basic interpretter. If it were pin compatible with existing BSs people that wanted to move up to more speed/interupts/etc could potentially do so with existing hardware if they were to recode in assembly or SX/B.
Esp. for the SMT SXs it would make the SX chip a little easier to work with and would have external memory built onto the chip. Even more so if SX/B added more support for such a 'standardized' setup.
More or less be the same as one of the faster Basic Stamps minus the on chip basic interpretter. If it were pin compatible with existing BSs people that wanted to move up to more speed/interupts/etc could potentially do so with existing hardware if they were to recode in assembly or SX/B.
Esp. for the SMT SXs it would make the SX chip a little easier to work with and would have external memory built onto the chip. Even more so if SX/B added more support for such a 'standardized' setup.
Comments
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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
You could do the same.
Basically RB is pins 0 to 7, and RC is pins 8 to 15.
If uses the internal 4MHz oscillator, although if I had it to do over I would have put sockets for a resonator.
Bean.
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"SX-Video·Module" Now available from Parallax for only $28.95
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=30012
Product web site: www.sxvm.com
"One experiment is worth a thousand theories"
Post Edited (Bean (Hitt Consulting)) : 7/15/2005 7:47:00 PM GMT
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I have an older BS2sx, I'll have to see if they are on that one. I assume if I was to overwrite the SX its functionality as a Basic Stamp are gone forever, correct?
"The trouble is cost -- building those modules is not easy or cheap. How much would you be willing to pay for an SX Stamp?"
Less then say a BS2px since it wouldn't have the IP and a couple less components on it. But if it was something I needed I'd still be willing to pay $50 or $60 for one assuming it had the external memory, voltage regulator and such.
Does that have the rest of the functionality of the BS though? Memory, voltage regulation and so on?
I realize one could lay out a circuit board to do all of this but making circuit boards certainly isn't as convient as a BS is for breadboarding or one off type projects.
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And yes, if you find a BS2sx with the programming port and reporgram it ... it will never be a BASIC Stamp again.
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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Again, that is my point. A big part of why people use BS is convience/ease of use. Having to layout a PCB, wait weeks for it, possibly redo it... wait more, then buy a variety of SMT components and do some SMT soldering isn't what most would consider convient.
Buying one 'SX Stamp' from Parallax all set to go is convient.
Anyhow it was just an idea.
·· While not Stamp Compatible for pinout, have you tried the SX Con Carne for a DIP version of the SX52?
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=45207
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
csavage@parallax.com
Thanks for the link. Turns out the BS2sx I have does have the pins on it so if I really wanted to I could use it that way.
If the only difference between a 'Basic Stamp' and a 'SX Stamp' would be one chip then it probably wouldn't make sense to offer two versions like that. But maybe putting programming pins traces back on Stamp could work. That way people could use it either way if desired.
Thanks!
Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 7/16/2005 6:41:25 PM GMT
Yes it is. I wasn't suggesting this for my own use, just as an idea on a possible avenue for Parallax.
Parallax seems to be pushing the SX chip on its own quite a bit with the SX/B compiler and so on. If a current stamp user wanted to give SX programming a shot (esp. the SMT chips with more program memory) having a chip in the 'Stamp' form factor/layout ready to go (or something like that) from Parallax is far easier to deal with then having some PCBs made, ordering the individual parts and trying to solder it together.
"All the grunt work is gone since it is a tested design and fabrication would be <$10, with an average turn around of 10 days (spread of 7-14 days). "
Except that board lacks the regulation and memory that a Stamp has. To add that the gunt work starts over with new testing as well.
"Only "inconvenience" is the soldering of the SMT chips."
Which for some is a big one on the 52 pin units. I have been soldering for 20+ years and would still be a little hesitant to tackle that and would probably need to buy different equipment to do a decent job of it. The prototype boards are a good way around this for a little bit of experimentation but lack external memory and don't work at all for anyone that wants to use that chip in any sort of quantity in a product. While OTOH the Stamp is a piece of cake to use like that... just plug it into a socket and go.
I too would like to see an SX chip with more memory that would be backwards compatable with the 24 pin stamps, as I have a hard time soldering the smaller components, as I do not have the "touch"
Something that would be usable on a breadboard would be great!
Bob N9LVU
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
csavage@parallax.com
So basically he is looking for is a Stamp that you program the SX instead of the EEPROM (no basic engine preinstalled on SX).
at least thats what I got from the thread.
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DTQ
Basically that is it. There are at least three competitors to Parallax that offer versions of their competing products in the 'Stamp' form factor. Basic X, BasicAtom and the JStamp for example and there may be others. It just seems odd to me that Parallax is pushing the SX chip without having a 'Stamp' form factor version of it too.
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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
They may be similar products but they are not competitors.
Not when you take the quality of the company and support into account.
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- - - PLJack - - -
Perfection in design is not achieved when there is nothing left to add.
It is achieved when there is nothing left to take away.
"They may be similar products but they are not competitors.
Not when you take the quality of the company and support into account."
That may be so if that is the metric you base your decision on. Parallax does have a large presence here and that is of course a good thing.
But if you look at execution speed, memory size and cost Parallax doesn't compete with a few of them either. Like everything else it is all about tradeoffs. Great support is important when you are getting going. But after you are there speed/memory/cost can get pretty important too.
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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
when I was first starting out in the stamp world I saw the same things as you.
BS2~4000 ips
BasicX~65000 ips
something like that!?
The quality of there product is no where near the quality of Parallax's product.
If you looking for speed memory ect.
why not start with a stamp to get ya going the move to something else if you feel comfortable.
I all depends on what your doing.
You could go FPGA if you needed something of that calibur.
or ARM.
Alot of people are just having fun and enjoy learning programming and electronics.
There are also quite a few seasoned people who do some really cool stuff with the SX's.
Its very easy to design something on expressPCB and have you boards back in a few days.
Then you can put some parts on your boards and paste and throw it in the toaster oven for a little while or you can use another method where you put a little solder on you pencil and some liquid flux on the pins and wipe the solder across the pins.
Its another accomplishment or experience you can throw under you belt.
Parallax has excellent documentation for there products as well as examples and support, but best of all they have this great community of people on these forums who are earger to help out whenever possible.
or you can go to the other guy, good luck! We've all been there.
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DTQ
For all the reasons I already gave.
"All the parts are available ... why wait for us to do it?"
I'm not waiting for you to do it. If I needed something like this and it wasn't available from Parallax I'd look into my options.
Like I have said, it was just a suggestion. Obviously one you don't agree with which is fine.
That is exactly my point... a person can't as easily move up from Stamp based products to SX based because there is no SX available in the Stamp form factor.
"when I was first starting out in the stamp world I saw the same things as you.
BS2~4000 ips
BasicX~65000 ips
something like that!?"
And the BasicX supports multi-tasking, interrupts, has a hardware UART (as well as software UART), has twice the EEPROM (and no 2k block limits) and about 3 times the RAM. For someone wanting to move up from a Stamp to a unit with multi-tasking and interrupts it is easier to move there then it is to an SX. To me anyway that seems like an oversight...
You have a valid point, but in my opinion your typical SX user is more sophisicated than your typical stamp user. As such the SX user will be more inclied to solder parts onto a proto-board, and not worry about having a "plug-in" microcontroller.
I have found out over time that Parallax usually knows exactly what they are doing. If they felt that there was a market for an SX in a DIP24 package, they would be selling it.
That said it would make a cool project for someone to do.
Bean.
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"SX-Video·Module" Now available from Parallax for only $28.95
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=30012
Product web site: www.sxvm.com
"One experiment is worth a thousand theories"
·
Please understand that we work very hard to deliver what you (our customers) ask for; and most of the time we succeed.· Sometimes things are tough though, and the axiom "It's harder than it looks..." is validated again.· And what we will always understand and accept is that our products aren't always perfect for everybody -- the nice thing about a free market is that one is free to purchase products anywhere.
Perhaps we can end this dicussion here.· This forum is, afterall, intended to support the SX and not to debate the relative merits of other products.
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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Post Edited (Jon Williams (Parallax)) : 7/19/2005 2:40:53 AM GMT
By comparison, I've never seen Parallax exagerate on their advertisements, and Parallax's top of the line Basic Stamp (BS2PX) will cost you just $79. If you need something faster, the SX Toolkit with the SX-Key programmer, a few textbooks, 2 SX28's and 2 resonators will run you $99 and a SX48/52 Prototype board (completely assembled) is another $9.95. Using SX/B, you can do multitasking with interrupts in Basic, and the SX48/52 prototype board's have a place you can solder (2) 32KB I2C EEPROM's.
·· I have one final closing thought on this thread as well...In terms of a socket-compatible replacement upgrade, I have to wonder...What good would a pin-compatible chip with onboard timers, UARTS, A/D conversion, etc do to replace a module that didn't have any of that in an existing product?
·· The answer is nothing...If the original device wasn't built to use all those bells and whistles on the new module, there would be no point plugging it into an existing product to upgrade.· You would need to re-design.· That being the case there would be no need for pin compatibility, which is why an upgrade to the SX from the BASIC Stamp does work for most.· New designs, new chip.· Just a thought.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
csavage@parallax.com
"and Parallax's top of the line Basic Stamp (BS2PX) will cost you just $79. If you need something faster, the SX Toolkit with the SX-Key programmer, a few textbooks, 2 SX28's and 2 resonators will run you $99 and a SX48/52 Prototype board (completely assembled) is another $9.95. Using SX/B, you can do multitasking with interrupts in Basic, and the SX48/52 prototype board's have a place you can solder (2) 32KB I2C EEPROM's."
I have many BS2px's sitting here ready to go, with hopefully a need for many more of them. I like the unit, it did (mostly) what I needed it to do and was extremely easy to use. I also have the SX-Key and board and such there too.
I was just pointing out that for someone that wanted to 'move up' from a BS2 that IMO the SX isn't exactly a slam dunk answer. The prototype board is great for prototyping... it isn't good for using a lot of the chips.
What if a person using one of Parallax's BS2 based robots wanted to 'do more' with the micro-controller... the SX in its present form doesn't fit there (while others do)....etc...etc....
And again... this was just a suggestion... not based on a 'need' of mine. I tend to think if I wanted to 'move up' the SX wouldn't work for me based on program size.
"...What good would a pin-compatible chip with onboard timers, UARTS, A/D conversion, etc do to replace a module that didn't have any of that in an existing product?
The answer is nothing..."
You are telling me you can't think of any existing BS applications where any of the above (and you left out speed increases and flexibility to do things that PBasic can't do) might be useful to have?
Come on.....
If that is really your position then why does the BS2PX still fit into the same form as a BS2? The px has features that the BS2 doesn't have and didn't exist when the original BS2 app. was designed. Yet Parallax kept backwards compatibility to the form factor. The reason being that they may very well be useful to a person using a BS2 somewhere in an existing design. By the same token an 'SX Stamp' could be useful too... if for no other reason then writing the identical program in SX/B and having speed increases over the Stamp.
"That being the case there would be no need for pin compatibility, which is why an upgrade to the SX from the BASIC Stamp does work for most. New designs, new chip."
Then by the same token a 'new design, new chip' a person has little reason to automatically go with an SX. If you are going to start from scratch and redesign for a new chip by itself anyway might as well explore all the other options out there.
It is about trying to keep repeat customers.....
Anyhow, I made the suggestion and tried to explain my thinking behind it and will end it at that.
·· I think my point was missed.· In reference to a pin-compatible replacement for a Stamp Module, if you have a product that you have built around the Stamp Module, let's say something high performance like a data control module for a factory/machine system.· If you drop in some module with on-board UARTs and Timers and A/D converters into the socket, how would you be able to use them?· The product was designed around a module that didn't have this hardware.· That was my point.· Now the new module may be faster, and it may have more memory, but all the extra hardware wasn't part of the original design.
·· Now, let's look at on-board hardware for a moment.· Even before I came to work for Parallax I never appreciated microcontrollers that had anything built-on.· So you start using a micro with on-board A/D.· What happens when you need more bits of resolution?· More channels?· Now that on-board A/D is useless, and you still have to go out and hang a chip off the micro.· The same can be said for much of the hardware included on these devices.· A system that allows you to pick and choose your hardware is ultimately more flexible and allows for more creativity in the design.· Plus, since the micro itself isn't constantly changing (The BASIC Stamp has been around for a long time) then you can always count on the hardware and software to be compatible.· As you·add built-in hardware to a micro, so complicates the code and hardware design.
·· As for the BS2px...You are correct, it does have additional features that the BS2 doesn't have.· None of these were really added, per se.· The SX chip on-board the module already had the hardware on it to support these features, they simply weren't being used.· The fact is, you can use a BS2px24 in place of a BS2p or a BS2 without having to really make any hardware changes.· Only a few minor code changes might be necessary.· If you drop in a pin-compatible other micro, you have to start over with your code, and possibly make some hardware changes.
·· The SX wasn't supposed to replace the BASIC Stamp.· In many cases it compliments it.· Co-Processors are another reason the BASIC Stamp is still so useful, you can always augment it.· I hope this clarifies the point I was trying to make.· I wasn't trying to argue yours.· Take care.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Tech Support
csavage@parallax.com