I've been keeping up with this discussion as I've been developing a CNC program for Mac OS X to control my Sherline Mill. I'm not using Stamps but i'm interested to see how things turn out with this project.
My own development has been based on PIC-SERVO controllers from JRKerr; I ported their Linux example code to Mac OS X. JRKerr has some open-source files including a very basic open-source file for CNC in their download section. It might give you some ideas on your own project here to see how they are doing it there. I considered Stamps but seeing as how there are NO CAM or CNC programs for Mac OS X, I already have a lot of programming to do.
I am using a Stamp for both spindle speed and coolant control.
Hope this helps.
Keith
PS: I don't work for and I'm not affiliated with either Sherline or JRKerr. Just someone that wants to do CNC milling on a Macintosh.
Welcome aboard.
Thanks for the link. Should be good reading. Please pop in from time to time and give us an update.
As for this project, I'm still wrapping up the database project I mentioned last week. I should be back in full force in about a week. I'm itching to get back to this project.
Till then......
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- - - PLJack - - -
Perfection in design is not achieved when there is nothing left to add. It is achieved when there is nothing left to take away.
I wrote a program to etch my DS1302 Piggyback board from start to finish.· It was a real pain, but once I had it going my little MF70 thought it was a CNC.
Then I wrote a program to etch the PC board for my AT45 EEPROM.· That wasn't so bad.
Then I wrote a program to etch four Stamp Tester boards at one time.· It was a breeze.· The more programs I write the easier it gets.
Now I don't understand CNC, but I understand the CNC uses a Gerber (?) type file to provide instructions for the CNC, and that it etches an isolation path on each side of each land.
It occurs to me that if there is a single isolation path between every land and every pad· - where required - you have the same functionality as a board where every trace is outlined.· OK, so some of the traces may be 20 or 30 mils wide, or it may even be a big blob of copper.· So what?· The board will function, and if you are just making a prototype, does it matter?
What I'm saying is that if you have a milling machine with exquisite control of all three axes, why not forget the Gerber (?) and write your own program.· ExpressPCB, which I use exclusively, goes not generate a file that can be used for CNC, so I was forced into writing my own programs.· I use the following procedure:
As I draw each etch line in my PCB layout, I copy the direction and travel into a spreadsheet.· When I'm finished, the spreadsheet becomes a program guide.· In the program I enter the travel, then call a GOSUB - goin, goout, goright,goleft - and keep repeating the process until all etch instructions have been programmed.· I insert a "Press any key to continue" pause at appropriate points so the spindle motor can cool down if it starts getting hot.
Sorry for not answering your post earlier but time was precious prior to my brief absense.
I am unfamiliar with the product you mentioned, however I am rather committed to proceding in my present direction as I feel the need to set up my kit(s) to give the best precision I can muster. That causes me to follow techniques that I am already familiar with, eventhough the recirculating ball bearings are being somewhat troublesome, and I hope to have that situation resolved soon after I am able to get back to it.
Please do realize that the design is modular; anyone can use it as a starting point and modify it with other approaches as they see fit. Perhaps you will take that route and share your results and experience with us.
We're getting there, Daniel.· I finally figured out to implement ratios of X:Y and vice versa.· I actually wrote a program to cut the star from start to finish.· I pre-positioned the cutter, loaded the Star program, hit the start key and away she went.· This is the fourth program I have written to accomplish a specific task - the more I do it the easier it gets.
I've been trying to come up with a workable registration system so I could make double sided boards.· It finally came together - I didn't have a piece of double sided - which is on the way - so I used a piece of single sided for a test.· I drilled all the holes on the bare side of the board, flipped it over and positioned it with the registration pins, then etched the pattern for the top side.· Had to modify the etch program a bit to store the current X-Y position since I found out it was very important to know exactly where the spindle was positioned if I wanted to do a different board.· Got it all in order and the little board turned out pretty well.· I have attached a picture of the top etch.
Drill Bit City has carbide end mills - .125 shank, cutting diameter .012, entire length of cutting portion is .035.· This opens up a lot of possibilities.· The extremely short cutting length should substantially reduce breakage, and imagine an isolation path only .012 wide.· I'm excited about this.· But they are not cheap !!
I've seen tons of images of PCB that's you've created and I've got to admit, they look excellent. But I havn't seen any images of your milling setup! [noparse]:([/noparse]
I'm interested in using the pulsar sytem to etch my boards, but I want to make a CNC Driller. Just something to drill my boards, not make the traces. I'm interested in how you automated your mill. I've only seen one picture, and it was hard to see anything in the picture. I'm mostly interested in how you attached the stepper motors to the handles of the mill. I'm very likly to purchase one of these mills if I can find a way to attach a stepper motor to it. Also, In the one picture that I did see, I noticed that one of the stepper motors was connected by a belt, is this accurate enough? Also, you've mentioned a problem with backlash, is that from the stepper, belt, stock mill, or where is that coming from?
Pictures of your setup would be really nice! [noparse]:D[/noparse]
Thank you for your interest in my Super Mill, Knight.
I have attached some pictures which hopefully will show how everything is put together.· If you look at the picture of the Z-drive, you will see an aluminum thingie between the stepper and the spindle dwhich I call an adapter.· I removed the little crank handle on the handwheel and the adapter is milled on the inside so it just fits over the handwheel, with four setscrews to hold it in place.· The adapter has a 1/4" hole all the way thru it and the stepper shaft slides into this hole and is held in place with two setscrews.· I considered several options for holding the stepper so it wouldn't rotate - the simplest and easist way was to install two pieces of 1/8" aluminum plate to clamp the stepper to the top of the mill frame.· This was done after the stepper motor was installed and everything tightened down.· There were no alignment problems - with everything in place I just added the two plates so the stepper could not rotate.· Quite effective.
The same adapter was used on the X and Y drive.· The X drive stepper has to move with the X table, but I did not want to mount it on the table.· So it has its own mounting as you can see.· The mounting base rests on a sheet of galvanized which I polished with 400 grit wet-dry, then appied a heavy coat of Turtle Wax.· This makes a very smooth surface and the X stepper slides back and forth with no problem.· About every two weeks I remove the stepper mounting and rewax the sheet of galvanized.· In order to get the stepper shaft adjusted vertically so it would slide into the adapter without binding, I added strips of masking tape between the bottom of the stepper mount and the little piece of galvanized it rests on.· The last layer of masking tape is double sided to hold the stepper mount to its metal bottom.· Since the picture was taken I have bent the front and rear ends of the stepper plate up like the nose of a ski to eliminate any possibility of the little plate biting into the large piece of galvanized.
The picture of the Y drive shows the belt drive.· The stepper has a
15 tooth timing pulley and handwheel adapter has a 30 tooth timing pulley.· With the timing belt adjusted fairly tight there is no slippage at all.· If you look closely, you can see a little tab at the bottom of the stepper bracket.· This anchors the whole thing to the little extension I had to add to my workbench.
The mill works great for drilling holes.· I can drill a single hole by going to the proper X-Y location, then press a key and the spindle drills the hole, then retracts itself.· The spindle is preposition about .060 above the PC board and dtravels a total distance of .185.· This assures penetration of the PC board and well into the backup board, which is 1/2" thing oak from Lowe's. I also have a routine for drilling DIP holes.· I can select the orientation - Vertical or Horizontal - , the number of pins per side, the spacing between each pin and the width of the DIP socket.· I can also use it to drill a single row or coulmn of pins, since after one side has been drilled the program gives me an option to return to the main program or to continue with the drilling.
I hope this answers all your questions.· If there is anything I have left out please let me know.
No, I'm still at it fighting for that low cost recirculating bearing challenge. Lots of other work related stuff has gotten in the way, and speed has dropped to a crawl, but not zero!
I've been lurking at the sidelines of this thread, but meanwhile have been slowly but steadily building a 95% surplus/junkbox parts milling machine.
Just last night, I made my first computer-controlled cuts in a piece of wood - about inch-long X, Y and diagonal slots.
I had all these old rods, bearings, stepper motors, etc in the garage junkbox, so I figured it would be worthwhile to make a working mill, even if with crappy parts, just for the learning experience, sort of like how a lot of software projects start with a version that is "built to throw away" in order to get more familiar with the project requirements.
But my creation is actually looking pretty solid. It's got a wooden base that holds an X axis, with a Y axis mounted on the X, both with a stepper-driven travel of about 6 inches. The Z axis so far is just a hinged board holding my Dremel over the Y axis and isn't computer controlled yet.
My plan at the moment is to use the X and Y movement to mill a flat surface onto the board on top of the Y axis, and towards that end, made the first few passes last night. And it worked! I made just a simple Delphi program that stepped the X motor via parallel port control until I pressed the "stop" button, then the Y motor, then both motors together, as the Dremel buzzed away at the board.
So yeah, my progress is as slow as everyone elses, but the interest is still there.
The company IGUS can be found at: http://www.igus.com and another company you should look into is http://pacific-bearing.com . IGUS bearings are more industrial (read looser) and lower cost. Pacific Bearing's "SIMPLICITY" series should be more suitable for this appllication as they are supposed to be more of a replacement for recirulating ball linear bearings. I believe that the IGUS are about 25 to 30% of the cost of recirc-ball and simplicity are about 80% of recirc-ball costs. Both should be quite tolerant of powerded G10 and the like without any wipers. I just found the Pacific Bearing units a few weeks ago at the Robots&Vision/Assembly show in Chicago.
Has this thread suddenly come alive?? haha Everyone must be busy!
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Steve "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
Firstly, an update. Last Thursday I received the latest of our prototype slide bearings, and while they were much improved, in my opinion they were still not quite adequate. We modified the design somewhat, and I'm expecting a new set this week.
I must apologize for all the time its taking; I'm rather embarrased.
Looking at the two sites you offered, was interesting, but neither system is compatible with the approach I am taking; a recirculating ball system between two sections of extruded aluminum.
However, that said, I'll contact both tomorrow to see what their prices are like; perhaps I need to modify my design if I can't get my approach to work......although I'm not yet giving up.
I've been playing around with Super Mill again.· As I've mentioned before, the mill has a limited Y travel, about 1.6 inches to be precise.· I was trying to come up with a way to make a board at least 2.5 inches in the Y direction.· I mounted a piece of 3x4 copper on my 1/2" back up board, which was anchored in place with double sided tape.· I·located the X and Y centers of the copper, moved 1.4 right, drilled a registration hole, moved 2.8 left and drilled another registration hole.· The board I wanted to make was 2x2.4, so I moved .400 right, out 1.200, then right 2.000.· At this point I reset the X and Y positions to 0,0.· I etched the top half of the board and ·returned to 0, 0.
I rotated the copper 180 degrees and positioned it with two registration pins.· Then I etched the top half.· The picture of the board is below.
There is a small jog in some of the lines near the center, but the etch path is continuous, so the board is fully functional.· I don't know whether the registration was a tad off or if the backlash compensation is not dead on.· I didn't drill any holes because this is just an imiginary circuit.
With a little care, I think I can now make a 4x3 PC board, which opens up a lot of new possibilities.· I'll have to check the backlash compensation before I try again.
Sid You could try using a calibration point on the board to check to see if the positioning is still accurate for the second pass. Possibily a point that was milled on the first pass will do. If the repositioning of the board is off, you may have to adjust the offsets on the x and y axis. One possible thought is to use the mill to reposition the board, posibily with the spindle turned off with a hole in the board, or an attatchment on the spindle, etc. Just some ideas to play with.
Kelvin, I think I found the problem.· I was reviewing the routines that insert the backlash compensation, and I discovered I am pusong the stepper 155 times for left comp, and only 135 times for right comp.· That would explain why the vertical lines are shfted to the left, and the closer you get to the center, which is nearing the end of the program, the worse it gets.· I'll correct that and try again.
I think he's done a marvelous job, and obviously it's working for him.
The design approach I'm following is not based on suspension on drill rod, and should be quite a bit more robust with respect to deflection; as you know my target is .002/.003, and that's not easy to come by.
That said, my design efforts have ground to a crawl as day-to-day business must get priority, so I would suggest that those who are unable to wait any further, move on to their own designs.
I'm committed to finishing this effort as I have numerous needs for such motion systems; I just can't seem to predict when......
BASIC Stamp > Using a USB Flash Drive with the Stamp? has a link to a company that uses a serial link to read/write a MMC/SD card. I wonder if it would be possible to use that for the G-code program storage? Or if there is enough room left on the p24 memory for that?
Comments
"I KNOW I can", said the little mill.
What a clever little mill.
See the nice picture?
Sid
My own development has been based on PIC-SERVO controllers from JRKerr; I ported their Linux example code to Mac OS X. JRKerr has some open-source files including a very basic open-source file for CNC in their download section. It might give you some ideas on your own project here to see how they are doing it there. I considered Stamps but seeing as how there are NO CAM or CNC programs for Mac OS X, I already have a lot of programming to do.
http://www.jrkerr.com/
I am using a Stamp for both spindle speed and coolant control.
Hope this helps.
Keith
PS: I don't work for and I'm not affiliated with either Sherline or JRKerr. Just someone that wants to do CNC milling on a Macintosh.
Thanks for the link. Should be good reading. Please pop in from time to time and give us an update.
As for this project, I'm still wrapping up the database project I mentioned last week. I should be back in full force in about a week. I'm itching to get back to this project.
Till then......
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- - - PLJack - - -
Perfection in design is not achieved when there is nothing left to add.
It is achieved when there is nothing left to take away.
I wrote a program to etch my DS1302 Piggyback board from start to finish.· It was a real pain, but once I had it going my little MF70 thought it was a CNC.
Then I wrote a program to etch the PC board for my AT45 EEPROM.· That wasn't so bad.
Then I wrote a program to etch four Stamp Tester boards at one time.· It was a breeze.· The more programs I write the easier it gets.
Now I don't understand CNC, but I understand the CNC uses a Gerber (?) type file to provide instructions for the CNC, and that it etches an isolation path on each side of each land.
It occurs to me that if there is a single isolation path between every land and every pad· - where required - you have the same functionality as a board where every trace is outlined.· OK, so some of the traces may be 20 or 30 mils wide, or it may even be a big blob of copper.· So what?· The board will function, and if you are just making a prototype, does it matter?
What I'm saying is that if you have a milling machine with exquisite control of all three axes, why not forget the Gerber (?) and write your own program.· ExpressPCB, which I use exclusively, goes not generate a file that can be used for CNC, so I was forced into writing my own programs.· I use the following procedure:
As I draw each etch line in my PCB layout, I copy the direction and travel into a spreadsheet.· When I'm finished, the spreadsheet becomes a program guide.· In the program I enter the travel, then call a GOSUB - goin, goout, goright,goleft - and keep repeating the process until all etch instructions have been programmed.· I insert a "Press any key to continue" pause at appropriate points so the spindle motor can cool down if it starts getting hot.
So there you are - that's how I do it.
Think about it.
Sid
Sorry for not answering your post earlier but time was precious prior to my brief absense.
I am unfamiliar with the product you mentioned, however I am rather committed to proceding in my present direction as I feel the need to set up my kit(s) to give the best precision I can muster. That causes me to follow techniques that I am already familiar with, eventhough the recirculating ball bearings are being somewhat troublesome, and I hope to have that situation resolved soon after I am able to get back to it.
Please do realize that the design is modular; anyone can use it as a starting point and modify it with other approaches as they see fit. Perhaps you will take that route and share your results and experience with us.
Thanks for your interest and input though.
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
From now on I shall call it Super Mill.
See the pretty picture
Sid
Quite nice.·
It looks like you have the smooth diagonals all worked out.
Daniel
Sid
(Oh, really?)
You be the judge.
Sid
Daniel
www.allsurplus.net/CNC·(you really need a broad band connection to view this site)
maybe a stamp controlled spindle in in order!
Mike
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"OEM NMEA GPS Module" Now available on ebay for only $19.99
Product web site: http://www.allsurplus.net/Axiom/
Post Edited (Mike Cook) : 9/10/2005 6:49:13 PM GMT
Sid
Many thanks and good luck.
-dave
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This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Sid
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Sid Weaver
Do you have a Stamp Tester yet?
http://hometown.aol.com/newzed/index.html
·
I've seen tons of images of PCB that's you've created and I've got to admit, they look excellent. But I havn't seen any images of your milling setup! [noparse]:([/noparse]
I'm interested in using the pulsar sytem to etch my boards, but I want to make a CNC Driller. Just something to drill my boards, not make the traces. I'm interested in how you automated your mill. I've only seen one picture, and it was hard to see anything in the picture. I'm mostly interested in how you attached the stepper motors to the handles of the mill. I'm very likly to purchase one of these mills if I can find a way to attach a stepper motor to it. Also, In the one picture that I did see, I noticed that one of the stepper motors was connected by a belt, is this accurate enough? Also, you've mentioned a problem with backlash, is that from the stepper, belt, stock mill, or where is that coming from?
Pictures of your setup would be really nice! [noparse]:D[/noparse]
MUCH TIA,
Knight.
I have attached some pictures which hopefully will show how everything is put together.· If you look at the picture of the Z-drive, you will see an aluminum thingie between the stepper and the spindle dwhich I call an adapter.· I removed the little crank handle on the handwheel and the adapter is milled on the inside so it just fits over the handwheel, with four setscrews to hold it in place.· The adapter has a 1/4" hole all the way thru it and the stepper shaft slides into this hole and is held in place with two setscrews.· I considered several options for holding the stepper so it wouldn't rotate - the simplest and easist way was to install two pieces of 1/8" aluminum plate to clamp the stepper to the top of the mill frame.· This was done after the stepper motor was installed and everything tightened down.· There were no alignment problems - with everything in place I just added the two plates so the stepper could not rotate.· Quite effective.
The same adapter was used on the X and Y drive.· The X drive stepper has to move with the X table, but I did not want to mount it on the table.· So it has its own mounting as you can see.· The mounting base rests on a sheet of galvanized which I polished with 400 grit wet-dry, then appied a heavy coat of Turtle Wax.· This makes a very smooth surface and the X stepper slides back and forth with no problem.· About every two weeks I remove the stepper mounting and rewax the sheet of galvanized.· In order to get the stepper shaft adjusted vertically so it would slide into the adapter without binding, I added strips of masking tape between the bottom of the stepper mount and the little piece of galvanized it rests on.· The last layer of masking tape is double sided to hold the stepper mount to its metal bottom.· Since the picture was taken I have bent the front and rear ends of the stepper plate up like the nose of a ski to eliminate any possibility of the little plate biting into the large piece of galvanized.
The picture of the Y drive shows the belt drive.· The stepper has a
15 tooth timing pulley and handwheel adapter has a 30 tooth timing pulley.· With the timing belt adjusted fairly tight there is no slippage at all.· If you look closely, you can see a little tab at the bottom of the stepper bracket.· This anchors the whole thing to the little extension I had to add to my workbench.
The mill works great for drilling holes.· I can drill a single hole by going to the proper X-Y location, then press a key and the spindle drills the hole, then retracts itself.· The spindle is preposition about .060 above the PC board and dtravels a total distance of .185.· This assures penetration of the PC board and well into the backup board, which is 1/2" thing oak from Lowe's. I also have a routine for drilling DIP holes.· I can select the orientation - Vertical or Horizontal - , the number of pins per side, the spacing between each pin and the width of the DIP socket.· I can also use it to drill a single row or coulmn of pins, since after one side has been drilled the program gives me an option to return to the main program or to continue with the drilling.
I hope this answers all your questions.· If there is anything I have left out please let me know.
Sid
Sid
No, I'm still at it fighting for that low cost recirculating bearing challenge. Lots of other work related stuff has gotten in the way, and speed has dropped to a crawl, but not zero!
Hopefully some demonstrable progress soon.
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
Just last night, I made my first computer-controlled cuts in a piece of wood - about inch-long X, Y and diagonal slots.
I had all these old rods, bearings, stepper motors, etc in the garage junkbox, so I figured it would be worthwhile to make a working mill, even if with crappy parts, just for the learning experience, sort of like how a lot of software projects start with a version that is "built to throw away" in order to get more familiar with the project requirements.
But my creation is actually looking pretty solid. It's got a wooden base that holds an X axis, with a Y axis mounted on the X, both with a stepper-driven travel of about 6 inches. The Z axis so far is just a hinged board holding my Dremel over the Y axis and isn't computer controlled yet.
My plan at the moment is to use the X and Y movement to mill a flat surface onto the board on top of the Y axis, and towards that end, made the first few passes last night. And it worked! I made just a simple Delphi program that stepped the X motor via parallel port control until I pressed the "stop" button, then the Y motor, then both motors together, as the Dremel buzzed away at the board.
So yeah, my progress is as slow as everyone elses, but the interest is still there.
David
The company IGUS can be found at: http://www.igus.com and another company you should look into is http://pacific-bearing.com . IGUS bearings are more industrial (read looser) and lower cost. Pacific Bearing's "SIMPLICITY" series should be more suitable for this appllication as they are supposed to be more of a replacement for recirulating ball linear bearings. I believe that the IGUS are about 25 to 30% of the cost of recirc-ball and simplicity are about 80% of recirc-ball costs. Both should be quite tolerant of powerded G10 and the like without any wipers. I just found the Pacific Bearing units a few weeks ago at the Robots&Vision/Assembly show in Chicago.
Rick
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·
Steve
"Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
Thanks for your input.
Firstly, an update. Last Thursday I received the latest of our prototype slide bearings, and while they were much improved, in my opinion they were still not quite adequate. We modified the design somewhat, and I'm expecting a new set this week.
I must apologize for all the time its taking; I'm rather embarrased.
Looking at the two sites you offered, was interesting, but neither system is compatible with the approach I am taking; a recirculating ball system between two sections of extruded aluminum.
However, that said, I'll contact both tomorrow to see what their prices are like; perhaps I need to modify my design if I can't get my approach to work......although I'm not yet giving up.
Thanks again, and cheers,
Peter (pjv)
I've been playing around with Super Mill again.· As I've mentioned before, the mill has a limited Y travel, about 1.6 inches to be precise.· I was trying to come up with a way to make a board at least 2.5 inches in the Y direction.· I mounted a piece of 3x4 copper on my 1/2" back up board, which was anchored in place with double sided tape.· I·located the X and Y centers of the copper, moved 1.4 right, drilled a registration hole, moved 2.8 left and drilled another registration hole.· The board I wanted to make was 2x2.4, so I moved .400 right, out 1.200, then right 2.000.· At this point I reset the X and Y positions to 0,0.· I etched the top half of the board and ·returned to 0, 0.
I rotated the copper 180 degrees and positioned it with two registration pins.· Then I etched the top half.· The picture of the board is below.
There is a small jog in some of the lines near the center, but the etch path is continuous, so the board is fully functional.· I don't know whether the registration was a tad off or if the backlash compensation is not dead on.· I didn't drill any holes because this is just an imiginary circuit.
With a little care, I think I can now make a 4x3 PC board, which opens up a lot of new possibilities.· I'll have to check the backlash compensation before I try again.
Sid
kelvin
Sid
You might want to take a look at what the folks (competation) are discussing over on the CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO group.·
The message thread starts at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO/message/84039·with the question "If someone made a desktop cnc machine (without motors or controller) with a cutting area of about 10" x 10" that was solid and accurate, ... would there be an interest in such a machine?".· The message that caught my eye was a response to the question, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO/message/84049.
Pics are posted at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361144@N00/.
Daniel
I think he's done a marvelous job, and obviously it's working for him.
The design approach I'm following is not based on suspension on drill rod, and should be quite a bit more robust with respect to deflection; as you know my target is .002/.003, and that's not easy to come by.
That said, my design efforts have ground to a crawl as day-to-day business must get priority, so I would suggest that those who are unable to wait any further, move on to their own designs.
I'm committed to finishing this effort as I have numerous needs for such motion systems; I just can't seem to predict when......
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
Just a thought.
Sid