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Controling Solenoid — Parallax Forums

Controling Solenoid

earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
edited 2005-02-15 23:21 in BASIC Stamp
I am trying to control a solenoid from my BS2 using a circuit like the one shown in the attached picture.
I am very new to electronics and having trouble figuring out how to get my 24VDCsolenoid enough power using a TIP120 Darlington Transistor. The current coming in on the base is just under 5V and what is coming out to the solenoid is about 3.5V (roughly). My program is working fine and the solenoid is clicking and giving a very faint tug when it gets power as controled by the BS2, but not near enough. How do I amlify the power enough to operate the solenoid which needs 24V but will work okay at 12V? Is there an equation for calculating the power amplification?

My goal is to control 4 once I have this figured out. Is it better to buy some sort of motor control?
bs2_solenoid.jpg
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Comments

  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2005-02-09 15:13
    Solenoids require a nice bang current to get them to switch.· So you might find you need a healthy power supply when you are running 4.
    If you run them at half the voltage, you might find that you need twice the current....so you run out of regulator room quickly.

    (just a note....current is in Amps....you are measuring 5volts on the base of the darlington.)
    The 5V on the base is about right...as the stamp puts out 5V and you have a series resistor so it drops a little.

    I was surprised to see the diode across the emitter/collector....if it's purpose is to prevent back-EMF from hitting the stamp, then I'd have thought it'd be across the coil (like in a relay).·

    What's the voltage across your coil?
    Where are you measuring that 3.5V?· if that's all you have at the solenoid, then there's no way that'll make it go (especially if it's a 24V one).
    You'll need·a separate supply....use a 24Vdc wall-wart.

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    ·

    Steve
    http://members.rogers.com/steve.brady
    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2005-02-09 15:17
    Yes, the "Solenoid Power Supply" needs to be at least 12 volts, and 24 volts would be better. If you've connected it to +5, it's not going to work.

    The actual voltage is not indicated on your diagram, but thats what it needs to be. The TIP120 is acting as a switch. When the Base is at zero volts, the TIP120 is a low-resistance path to ground for the Solenoid current. When the base is at +5 volts, the TIP120 is a high-resistance path (aka "Off") to current, and the Solenoid should release.

    And using the TIP120 is probably the best (most robust, least expensive) approach to doing this.· You're on the right track.
  • earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
    edited 2005-02-09 15:18
    The 3.5V is at the solenoid, so yes, it is no where near the power that it needs.
    Can you give me some sort of specific diagram or example of how to handle supplying power to 4 solenoids from one source? Do they each need their own power source?
    Also, I am a serious newbie. What is a wall-wart?
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2005-02-09 15:22
    A wall-wart is a small power supply (from Radio Shack or elsewhere) which plugs into the wall AC, and provides unregulated DC voltage out. It sits like a wart on the wall, thus "wall-wart".

    You can drive 4 solenoids -- I believe from unregulated power, in fact -- from a single 24 volt supply. You might check the current needs of the solenoid -- a TIP120 can handle 5 amps, which is HUGE.· This means the TIP120 will not be stressed by your application.·You probably don't need that much current to activate the solenoid, but you'll have to read up on your specific solenoid for that.

    So, if your solenoid takes 500 mA to activate, and you want 4 of them, you'll need a 2 amp, 24 volt supply. If your solenoid takes 100 mA to activate, you'll only need a 400 mA supply.
  • achilles03achilles03 Posts: 247
    edited 2005-02-09 15:23
    Also, listen to steve_b's comment about back-EMF. I'd have placed the diode for this circuit (aka a shunt diode) across the coil. When the solenoid is turned off, it's magnetic field will collapse and induce a voltage (basically, it's trying to keep the current going). This can create really high voltages and fry some components. The shunt diode provides a path for the back-EMF current so the voltage doesn't spike.

    Dave
  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2005-02-09 15:30
    allanlane5 said...
    TIP120 can handle 5 amps, which is HUGE.· This means the TIP120 will not be stressed by your application.·You probably don't need that much current to
    ·· Hey allan, if you run the full 5 amps (near continuous) through the tip120....would you want/need a heat sink?·
    ·· Just seems like it would make a nice heat source at that current!

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    ·

    Steve
    http://members.rogers.com/steve.brady
    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
    edited 2005-02-09 15:58
    Would this power suply Do the trick?

    I am searching for teh current rating for my solenoids which I got at AllElectronics.com but nothing is listed when searched for via google. Will I overload my solenoids with the above power supply which is rated at 1000mA?
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-09 16:12
    That power supply is fine, and so is your diode, you connected it the way a hexfet does, placing across the solenoid is also valid. There is an argument to be made in the realm of EMI·and length of path but its not a serious issue.
  • earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
    edited 2005-02-09 16:23
    Does it make sense to have one across the solenoid in addition to one across the emitter and collector of the TIP120?
  • steve_bsteve_b Posts: 1,563
    edited 2005-02-09 16:23
    I couldn't find anything specific to your solenoid....

    But, it says "Intermittant Duty; Max 10%"

    On another site ( http://www.magnet-schultz.com/404%20DC%20PULL%20TYPE%20SOLENOID.htm·) they call Intermittant 11Watts.

    SO, here comes the math, at 24Volts and 11Watts you would be pulling a max current of P=VI; I=P/V=11/24=458mA (or close enough to say 500mA).

    So with 4 solenoids at FULL draw, you'd be at your power supply limit.·

    So, I'd say that's probably fine as longas you're not firing all solenoids at once.

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    ·

    Steve
    http://members.rogers.com/steve.brady
    "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-09 16:54
    earthlingzed said...
    Does it make sense to have one across the solenoid in addition to one across the emitter and collector of the TIP120?
    No only one is needed, its to provide a safe·path for the collapse of magnetic feild built up in the solenoid after you turn it off. If you place it across the solenoid, it will collapse through the solenoid. If you place it across the transistor, it will collapse through ground.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,568
    edited 2005-02-09 18:29
    Paul Baker quoted and said...
    earthlingzed said...

    Does it make sense to have one across the solenoid in addition to one across the emitter and collector of the TIP120?
    No only one is needed, its to provide a safe path for the collapse of magnetic feild built up in the solenoid after you turn it off. If you place it across the solenoid, it will collapse through the solenoid. If you place it across the transistor, it will collapse through ground.

    The diode across the transistor provides back-EMF protection ONLY to the transistor. By not placing a diode across the coil(s), then other components in your
    circuit are vulnerable to back-EMF damage. As a rule of thumb, placing diodes across all inductive loads is required. Placing diodes across transistors and other
    sensitive components is preferred but not absolutely required.

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    Beau Schwabe - Mask Designer III

    National Semiconductor Corporation
    (Communication Interface Division)
    500 Pinnacle Court, Suite 525
    Mail Stop GA1
    Norcross,GA 30071
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-09 18:34
    Gothca, it was communicated to me that there would be potential noise issues with the transistor diode method only but no damage, guess I was told wrong, thanks for the clarification.
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2005-02-09 19:08
    EEEK! That power supply puts out 24 Volts AC! You want DC output.
    That power supply is NOT GOOD for what you want to do AT ALL.

    Regarding Current -- see
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=524963

    and scroll down to my treatise on current, the dependent quantity.

    In your case, you're not driving an LED, but the base of the TIP120.· And then, the TIP120 is providing low or high resistance for the coil.· The coil has a certain resistance associated with it -- and that limits your current.

    Post Edited (allanlane5) : 2/9/2005 7:12:24 PM GMT
  • earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
    edited 2005-02-09 19:11
    Thanks for pointing that out. Can you recommend a power supply that will work for me?
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2005-02-09 19:20
    This one:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=273-1776

    is a 12-volt, 1000 mA (or 1 Amp) AC to DC converter for $18.

    Search for "AC-To-DC" to get the full range.· There is a 'Regulated' one:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=273-1680

    The difference between 'regulated' and 'unregulated' (besides price) is that the 'regulated' one has some linear regulator built in.· This is a 7805 or equivalent device which keeps the output voltage fixed no matter how the load changes.· 'Unregulated' has more ripple, and the voltage changes based on the current you are pulling.

    You can at least test your relays with the $18 model (or the 13.5 volt model, for that matter).· You need to find how much current they pull when activated, and when 'holding', to know if you need more current than the $18 until can put out.
    ·
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-09 19:51
    allanlane5 said...
    EEEK! That power supply puts out 24 Volts AC! You want DC output.
    That power supply is NOT GOOD for what you want to do AT ALL.

    Regarding Current -- see
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=524963

    and scroll down to my treatise on current, the dependent quantity.

    In your case, you're not driving an LED, but the base of the TIP120.· And then, the TIP120 is providing low or high resistance for the coil.· The coil has a certain resistance associated with it -- and that limits your current.
    [url=mailto:d@m]d@m[/url]^ it I missed that, I think I'll take a break from answering peoples ?'s, Im getting too slapdash.
  • earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
    edited 2005-02-15 21:04
    I am back with more questions ....

    I got the recommended 12 VDC 1000 mA power supply for my solenoid circuit and I have it set up.
    I am not getting the solenoid to contract at all.

    Here is what I know thus far:

    Using a simple program to turn it on , pause, then turn it off
    ' {$STAMP BS2}
' {$PBASIC 2.5}
main:
HIGH 7
PAUSE 200
LOW 7
PAUSE 2000

GOTO main



    The BS2 is properly putting out 3V going into a 1k Ohn resistor, then into my TIP120 Base.

    My diode goes across the collector and the emitter.

    It looks like the emitter never lets out any voltage. It stays at 0.

    The collector emits between 1.2V and 2.2V as the progam toggles.

    I am getting 12V in from the solenoid power supply.

    The solenoid stays at 0V, never getting any power.

    I have the emitter going to the ground for both the solenoid power supply and the BS2 as it is my understanding that the circuit will not work without doing this.

    I am so damned lost. I think I am following the correct circuit to a T, but it is not working! confused.gif

    Post Edited (earthlingzed) : 2/15/2005 9:07:40 PM GMT
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-15 21:33
    have you tried to activate the servo just using power, ie without the stamp in the loop? Does it work in this "manual" control?
  • earthlingzedearthlingzed Posts: 14
    edited 2005-02-15 21:38
    Yes, the solenoid works when it is manually powered. It pulls and holds on tight when you push the shaft a little inward when it is powered manually.

    I am not even certian what to test next to solve the problem.
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-15 21:57
    next step is to still keep the stamp out of the equation, but include the driver circuitry, drive the input to 3V and see if the solenoid activates, if yes, its likely the program (or the stamp's ability to drive the driver circuity) if not then its the driver circuitry. (your running the stamp at 3v?)

    BTW emitter should be 0V since its tied to ground, but the collector should vary between ~12V and <3(ish)V

    Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 2/15/2005 10:03:19 PM GMT
  • achilles03achilles03 Posts: 247
    edited 2005-02-15 22:13
    I don't know much about the transistor in use, but is in NPN or PNP?

    Dave
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-15 22:21
    Ok first off, dont connect your diode accross the transistor, the tip120 has a diode built into it (http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/ST%20Micro/Web%20Data/TIP120-122_125-127.pdf·the left diagram of the internals on the first page). Place the diode across the solenoid terminals the line on the diode should be on the power terminal of your solenoid (your 12V). Measuring the current flowing through the solenoid (connecting your DMM between the solenoid and the collector terminal of your transistor) provides a better understanding when your transitor is switching on or off, be sure to use your highest current setting for your DMM (10Amp, some DMM's·require you to plug your probe in a·different socket).·Lastly be sure·the metal tab on your tip120 is not touching other metal, this tab is also connected to the collector terminal so electrically connecting it to something other than other collector terminal connections will cause the transitor to·not work as expected)·
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2005-02-15 22:21
    its npn I included the link to the spec in the previous post
  • Shawn LoweShawn Lowe Posts: 635
    edited 2005-02-15 23:21
    Make sure you have the grounds connected. If your stamp puts out a voltage, and the grounds arent connected, it will seem as if the stamp hasent put out a signal (Where is 3V DC in relation to the walwart? 0Vdc could be 10Vdc to the stamp)
    Hope Im clear in my explaination.

    Shawn Lowe

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    Remember - No matter where you go
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