SX Projects -- We'd Like To Hear From You

Jon Williams

We're very pleased with the response to SX/B; with it and new (lower) pricing of chips and tools the SX seems to be regaining some steam.· We'd like that to continue.· The ideas below are on our plate -- with no timeframe -- and we'd like to hear from you about these ideas so that we can release a product that works best for you.

A) Prototyping boards for the SX line

These boards would be about the same size as our Boe, but would be bare -- most of the board would be configured for through-hole prototyping.· Our thought is three models: SX18/20, SX28, SX48/52.· Our goal is to make the boards avaialable in the $10 range, and let you populate them as desired.

Updated SX-Tech Board

We're thinking about revising the SX-Tech board so that it is the same size and configuration (servo ports, etc.) as our BOE.· This would allow users to strap it onto a Boe-Bot chassis very easily.

C) Small C Compiler

Like SX/B, this would be build into the IDE and give programmers who like C that tool.· Also like SX/B, it would be an inline compiler and the output would be easily understood by those who want to make the transition to assembly language.


Okay ... these are just ideas and we're not married to any of them.· Let your thoughts fly....··

Update -- I've been sufficiently scolded about my previous spelling error in the title.· Sorry, gang, did not get much sleep last night....

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Post Edited (Jon Williams) : 1/5/2005 8:24:31 PM GMT

alan turnbull

I like all these ideas.
The one I'm most interested in is the prototyping board for the SX48/52. I've wanted to play with these but the flatpack is difficult to use in homebrew systems. Even just an adapter to a DIL header ( I realise 52 pins is probably pushing a DIL but the 48 pin device should be possible )

allanlane5

All excellent, Jon.

One point -- You wanted to 'hear' from us, not "here" from us, right? You might want to change the subject line.

The BOE form-factor is a great idea. In fact, if you could maintain that form-factor for the prototyping boards, they too could be plugged-in to the BOE-bot for 'roll-your-own' superbrain applications.

P.S. Fixed.· Thanks Jon!

Post Edited (allanlane5) : 1/5/2005 8:26:16 PM GMT

Jim McCorison

A small c compiler (SX/C? In that case, what will SX/D be?) would be a nice addition.

The BOE is a nice setup, but it gets pretty cramped pretty quickly. Perhaps a tad more breadboard space would be nice.

Jim

Jon Williams

The BOE format is fixed so we can't add a "tad" more.· What we are doing though, is this:

·

It's called the Professional Development Board.· As you can see, it's like an NX-1000 on steroids.· This image is of an early prototype and the board has actually grown a bit (vertically).· This allowed us to add a second 10K pot.


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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Tony Leyland

I'm very interested in the "Professional Development Board" that holds the SX and BS2 at the same time with all that board space and I/O features.

Do you have a timescale for shipping, as I would buy 2 straight away !

Thanks
Tony

Jon Williams

No delivery date set yet -- we are just getting into manufacturing. I particularly like that I can develop SX-based add-ons for BASIC Stamps on one platform.

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Jim McCorison

The new board looks great. I'd would suggest, if it's not to late in the cycle, that the option of USB be added as well. It would be cool to have one board do both with a jumper of switch change, or even autodetect. (See what happens when you ask for input?) Sign me up for one of these when they come out.

Jim

Jon Williams

It's there for BASIC Stamps and the Javelin Stamp -- right next to the DB-9. On my PC, for example, I use USB to program a BASIC Stamp and my standard serial port for programming the SX. My January column (Nuts & Volts magazine)·has an LED mutliplexer that I developed using the PDB.

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

David B

I've got an old breadboard similar to this. I made a simple utility for it that, after many years of hacking around, has turned out to be extremely useful for debugging digital stuff.

Take an input wire-plugin pin, diode-protect it against overvoltage and reversed-voltage and connect it to a schmidt trigger. Feed that to an LED to indicate logical hi or lo. Also feed it to some decimal counters like a few cascaded 74LS160s. Feed the counter outputs to some display decoders
like 74LS47s. Let the decoders drive a few digits of seven-segment LEDs. A reset button zeroes the counters. (or nowadays, a single Scenix chip could replace all my old 74LS TTL chips!)

What you have is an instant display of:

Is your signal hi or lo?
If it is a steady low frequency, you can estimate its rate from the LED flicker.
If it is a high frequency, the steady-on LED segments show it.
It is especially useful for debugging code like where you need say 16 pulses to be output. Zero the display, then run your code. The display shows your pulse count!
You can even hook up RS232 to it and see whether any signal is arriving.

David

CPUMAN

The new board looks like it's going to be a great tool.

As for the ideas for the SX, they are all good but the prototyping board is what really interests me, the 48/52 prototyping ability would be really nice.

But what the SX really needs is·a giant 60' tall robot kit for world domination.

Ok seriously though, all three ideas are good, I'd also like to see ASM and SX/B code examples for interfacing the SX to products like the app-mods that are out for the stamp.· The examples available already are a really good start.

Chris

John B

I see someone let the cat out of the bag!·· Did he mention that all the LEDs on this board will be blue?
This board turned out so well that we decided to amp up the cool factor a bit.

John B.

Jim McCorison

Jon said...
It's there for BASIC Stamps and the Javelin Stamp -- right next to the DB-9.

Doh! I was busily looking at the wrong DB-9 and didn't study the other one. All I have to do is open my eyes.

Jim

Cenlasoft

Great looking Professional board, I really me professional!!!· Let me know and I'll buy one.

Thanks,

Curtis

JamesC

Random thoughts

On the original question, what components would be pre-stuffed on the "A" board? I presume the 4 & 3 pin headers, and a socket for the SX. Power regulator as well?

I like the idea of a bigger SX board ("B" option). I would imagine that considering the sizes you would have a little extra room for something interesting, say, a dedicated RS-232 interface like the Javelin board?

I would definately love to see a C compiler. Would this be a one-file-at-a-time compiler like SX/B or would you be able to do imports/multi-file compiles?

All three sound like good ideas to me, I'd personally rank them C,A,B, with C being the one I'm most interested in.

Comments on the Pro board:

I really like that you guys put five 7-seg displays instead of the four that the NX-1000 has. Sometimes it's nice to be able to display a full 16-bit word in integer format. As a comment for future enhancement, it would really be nice if it had an optional socket to drop a MAXIM 7219 (or equiv) to drive the LEDs. I keep one of these wired up on my NX-1000 pretty much all the time, which cuts into the experimenting space, and the wiring is kinda "busy". Why do I keep it wired all the time? Many of my experiments involve sensors, and I use it for feedback. The LCD, since it just kinda hangs off the board on the NX-1000, is rather awkward to walk around with. Not to mention that the parallel LCD eats up a lot of I/O pins, the MAX chip just 3.

On that thought, have you considered providing a dedicated space for the LCD (rather than having it hang off the board, which I hate on the NX 1000). If not that, then I would personally like to see the LCD be an optional component and drop the price of the board accordingly. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to keep the header for experimenting with different LCD displays, but the one that came with my NX1000 hardly ever gets used for the reasons described above.

Jon Williams

No components will be stuffed in the "A" boards -- they will be bare, hence the target $10 price.

On the SX-Tech board ... there will be no room for a DB-9 after we add the SX28 socket, etc. I think the AppMod header will be included (will bring out RB and RC pins), so this will allow you to use the RS232 AppMod.

If we do a small C compiler on the scale of SX/B it may, like SX/B does, allow you to import files. Check the Directives section of the Help file for INCLUDE and LOAD.

The MAX7219 is really hard to come by and very expensive. Checkout my January column in Nuts & Volts to see how I created a serial replacement for the MAX7219 using SX/B. The SX28 is about 1/3 the cost of the MAX7219, and with a serial connection requires just one pin.

We probably won't ever add a dedicated LCD because it would take too much room -- especially if we've already got the connector there that you can connect any compatible LCD to.

Thanks for you comments.

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Post Edited (Jon Williams) : 1/6/2005 2:29:51 AM GMT

Javalin

Hi All,

Excellent idea's, I like all of them.

With idea C (chuckle!) any possibility to have a Java compiler? It would save the hassle of learning yet another language!

For the Professional Dev Board, make sure that the UK distributers are force to stock them!

James

Jon Williams

No Java. If you can program in Java you can program in straight C -- you just do it without objects!

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Paul Baker

Target price on PDB? Target release date? any components segmented to a particular platform? you mention usb and bs1/2 does the sx have access to usb for data xfer (programming sx via usb not important, but pc uplink would be nice).

Paul

Ken Gracey

Paul,

This is what we need to know from you to help get the PDB launched (production is already underway):

• What price do you want to pay for the PDB? We're shooting for an earth-shaking $129 retail, but $149 is also possible. The two NX-1000s sell at $179 and $199 with less features, so I'd think our customers would be very happy with either price. But you're the customer, so tell us!·
• How would you like it to be available? Our preliminary thoughts are in StampWorks (with much other stuff), alone (this includes power supply, cable, LCD).

The USB interface is tied to programming ports for the BS1 and BS2, but I concur it would be handy to have the circuit for data interface with the PC. We'll need to look into this detail.

It's·neat how the PDB store the thunder from Jon's post, but we still need your input on low-cost prototype PCBs for the SX18/20/28/48/52.

Sincerely,

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
·

Javalin

For me, I would like to be able to order it as a seperate part, and $129 would be excellent!!

Have you a schematic that you can share?

James

Ken Gracey

Paul,

We speculate that you can probably talk to the PC via USB (virtual COM port) using the BS2's pin 16 socket. Jon will try it today.

Ken

Jon Williams

Javalin said...
Have you a schematic that you can share?

James

No, not yet ... I've got to finish a column for N&V this week, then I start in earnest on documenting the PDB -- including schematics for the various sections of the PDB.··Perhaps I shouldn't have posted the pic -- as Ken suggested above, we'd like feedback on the other items mentioned at the top of the thread.· Please, no more questions on the PDB ... we will let you know everything (price, release date, demo code, etc.) as soon as we can.


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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Jim McCorison

I'd like to see the PDB available as a stand alone device. The StampWorks kit would be good for those just starting out.

Let's see if I have this right. You're asking the consumers if you should charge a higher or a lower price. Right?

Obviously the "consumer" response is the lower the price the better. On the other hand, we all have a vested interest in Parallax remaining profitable and in business. So I guess the answer is to charge a fair price for the product being delivered. How's that for a non-answer?

Jim


Sorry, post was started before Jon's reply above. Oh well, you got more feedback even if you didn't want it.

Post Edited (Jim McCorison) : 1/6/2005 6:37:25 PM GMT

Jon Williams

Paul Baker said...
Target price on PDB? Target release date? any components segmented to a particular platform? you mention usb and bs1/2 does the sx have access to usb for data xfer (programming sx via usb not important, but pc uplink would be nice).

Paul

I did a quick test; yes, you can use the USB port to send serial data from the SX to a PC.· What you have to do is remove the BASIC Stamp module, then connect your serial pin on the SX to physical pin 1 of the BS2/Javelin socket (this is the SOUT pin).· I've attached my test program.· On my PC I am running the SX-Key through COM1 and have COM4 assigned to the USB port.· I uses Hyperterminal to receive the characters.

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas, TX· USA

Paul Baker

Thanks, glad to know the usb port will be usable outside of programming the stamp. the $129 price is the ballpark I am willing to pay. I definately want to purchase it seperatly, I dont have much use for the other included goodies in the stampworks. Perhaps you can provide a minimally populated version for the sub $100 market (breadboard plus minimal parts to place and program BS1/2 and SX).

Heres my input on the proto boards: the SX48/52, place footprint for 48 one one side, 52 on the other, for through hole components try to map traces so that regardless of which side you use, the board is populated on one side (this may not be possible especially with power leads). Clear instructions of population would likely be needed. Only include space for needed components: regulator, 4 pin programming header, osc socket (maybe include holes for a half can oscillator), led power indicator, and a reset switch (and pullup resistor). Between reset switch and /MCLR pin,·holes for a 3 pin jumper header, center hole has trace to reset switch out, one of the end holes goes to /MCLR and a trace connects this·hole to center hole, the other end hole·goes to rb.7, and sm pads for auxillery pullup resistor on /MCLR trace. This way the switch can be used as the reset button, or by cutting the trace connecting the two holes, installing a 3 pin header with jumper and a sm pullup resistor (to keep /MCLR high) the switch can be used for a runtime input/interrupt source).

For all boards, have a prototype area roughly the size of one half of of this board http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F002%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=276%2D148·with two rows of plated holes for installation of a pin header (breakout of chips ports) add notches and perforation (akin to the protoboard in link, or possibily use a·row of holes as perforation line) so that we can easily snap off the proto area if we dont need/want it.

wrt sx/c this would be nice addition to the supported languages from parallax provided compilers. Perhaps you can look into optimization of SX/B/C asm output based on user entered criteria (Two large catagories: Speed and Program Space with subcatagories such as "minimize page crossing" "subroutine use: (0-none) (1-minimal) (2-normal) (3- extensive)" etc. I know you will not likely choose to do this (for one there would be no reason to use a 3rd party compiler) but since SX/B is (and it also looks like SX/C will be) essentially a macro based meta-compiler, give the programmer the ability to redefine the macro of a function and to create new functions. This would give the experienced programmer the ability to tweak the asm output to thier own style/optimizations without having to hand alter the output.

Paul

Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 1/6/2005 7:54:06 PM GMT

Paul Baker

grrr the "off by one error" still not fixed, this is a "bump" post to reflect on the threads page there are 2 pages of posts, I will delete this post when someone else has posted.