A Scoring Box for the Fencing Club

Archiver

My name is Mark and I am an instructor at a local community college.
I am also the armorer for our fencing club. Our fencing club can not
afford the $1000 scoring boxes that are offered from the various
manufactering companies, so we have decided to build our own. Rather
than trying to backwards engineer some of the older boxes we have,
we wanted to design and build our own processor based box. Now you
know what I am doing here.

First question I think is which one of the Stamp Kits to buy. I am
leaning towards the BS2P24. The way a scoring box works is by
watching 3 voltage points for each fencer/weapon. The box is
monitoring the voltages of both fencers at once and deciding who's
switch on the tip of the blade has closed first. I need a Stamp that
can watch about 6-10 inputs at once and then send outputs that turn
on a buzzer and a light for each of the fencers. So that means about
5-8 outputs. These inputs and outputs are nothing more than Hi and
Lo signals. Nothing fancy.

Being new at the stamp game, I would like to get anyones input on
which stamp will serve my best interest. There is some timing that
has to occur. Once the first fencer switches his tip the second
fencer has 1/20 of a second to answer the attack with a parry and
after that is locked out from scoring.

If anyone who has done some of this type of work would be so kind as
to respond with some information about which module to start with
and perhaps some input on the programming style, it would help me
choose a place to start. We have a summer camp coming up, and it
would be nice to test some ideas with different fencing groups.

Looking forward to sharing my progress and ideas with all here.
Thanks in advance.

Mark Stoltenberg
Brazosport College

Archiver

--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "eashandie" <eashandie@y...>
wrote:
> My name is Mark and I am an instructor at a local community
college.
> I am also the armorer for our fencing club. Our fencing club can
not
> afford the $1000 scoring boxes that are offered from the various
> manufactering companies, so we have decided to build our own.
Rather
> than trying to backwards engineer some of the older boxes we have,
> we wanted to design and build our own processor based box. Now you
> know what I am doing here.
>
> First question I think is which one of the Stamp Kits to buy. I am
> leaning towards the BS2P24. The way a scoring box works is by
> watching 3 voltage points for each fencer/weapon. The box is
> monitoring the voltages of both fencers at once and deciding who's
> switch on the tip of the blade has closed first. I need a Stamp
that
> can watch about 6-10 inputs at once and then send outputs that turn
> on a buzzer and a light for each of the fencers. So that means
about
> 5-8 outputs. These inputs and outputs are nothing more than Hi and
> Lo signals. Nothing fancy.
>
> Being new at the stamp game, I would like to get anyones input on
> which stamp will serve my best interest. There is some timing that
> has to occur. Once the first fencer switches his tip the second
> fencer has 1/20 of a second to answer the attack with a parry and
> after that is locked out from scoring.
>
> If anyone who has done some of this type of work would be so kind
as
> to respond with some information about which module to start with
> and perhaps some input on the programming style, it would help me
> choose a place to start. We have a summer camp coming up, and it
> would be nice to test some ideas with different fencing groups.
>
> Looking forward to sharing my progress and ideas with all here.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Mark Stoltenberg
> Brazosport College


Hi Mark,

Sounds like a neat project.

The first question I have is one of two people are having a duel and
one guy's heart thrust is 1/10 of second sooner than the other guy's
thurst, aren't both guys in need of some emergency medical attention ?

But, more to your project, it would seem that both persons would need
to be connected to a third device.

As I see it, each fencer could have a belt clip, radio box sort of
device. Each would hold the Stamp and connect to the switches.

A third device would constanly listen for output of these and signal
which device sent an output first.

Is that close ?

Dave

Archiver

--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <davemucha@j...>
wrote:
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "eashandie" <eashandie@y...>
> wrote:
> > My name is Mark and I am an instructor at a local community
> college.
> > I am also the armorer for our fencing club. Our fencing club can
> not
> > afford the $1000 scoring boxes that are offered from the various
> > manufactering companies, so we have decided to build our own.
> Rather
> > than trying to backwards engineer some of the older boxes we
have,
> > we wanted to design and build our own processor based box. Now
you
> > know what I am doing here.
> >
> > First question I think is which one of the Stamp Kits to buy. I
am
> > leaning towards the BS2P24. The way a scoring box works is by
> > watching 3 voltage points for each fencer/weapon. The box is
> > monitoring the voltages of both fencers at once and deciding
who's
> > switch on the tip of the blade has closed first. I need a Stamp
> that
> > can watch about 6-10 inputs at once and then send outputs that
turn
> > on a buzzer and a light for each of the fencers. So that means
> about
> > 5-8 outputs. These inputs and outputs are nothing more than Hi
and
> > Lo signals. Nothing fancy.
> >
> > Being new at the stamp game, I would like to get anyones input
on
> > which stamp will serve my best interest. There is some timing
that
> > has to occur. Once the first fencer switches his tip the second
> > fencer has 1/20 of a second to answer the attack with a parry
and
> > after that is locked out from scoring.
> >
> > If anyone who has done some of this type of work would be so
kind
> as
> > to respond with some information about which module to start
with
> > and perhaps some input on the programming style, it would help
me
> > choose a place to start. We have a summer camp coming up, and it
> > would be nice to test some ideas with different fencing groups.
> >
> > Looking forward to sharing my progress and ideas with all here.
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Mark Stoltenberg
> > Brazosport College
>
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Sounds like a neat project.
>
> The first question I have is one of two people are having a duel
and
> one guy's heart thrust is 1/10 of second sooner than the other
guy's
> thurst, aren't both guys in need of some emergency medical
attention ?
>
> But, more to your project, it would seem that both persons would
need
> to be connected to a third device.
>
> As I see it, each fencer could have a belt clip, radio box sort of
> device. Each would hold the Stamp and connect to the switches.
>
> A third device would constanly listen for output of these and
signal
> which device sent an output first.
>
> Is that close ?
>
> Dave

That is close to a wireless scoring box. Fencers have wires attached
to the back of their jackets. The 3conductor wire goes up and
through the jacket and exits the at the hand and plugs into the
weapon. Both fencers carry an A, B, and C lead. That is the inputs
that I refer to. The "B" lead is a high voltage. If the tip of the
sword makes contact with the floor or the other fencers
bellguard, "B" grounds low. The inputs would be A=low B=low C=low.
In other words, you have grounded out your weapon on a non-target.
If you hit a good target, the tip switch is closed and the "A" line
comes back high. In other words, A=high B=high C=low. I need one
stamp to monitor the A,B, and C of each fencer and look for fencers
that score on-target hits. Will the stamp look at the inputs and
then based on who wins the hit, turn on scoring lights?

Hope this clarifies some things.

Mark

Archiver

>
> That is close to a wireless scoring box. Fencers have wires
attached
> to the back of their jackets. The 3conductor wire goes up and
> through the jacket and exits the at the hand and plugs into the
> weapon. Both fencers carry an A, B, and C lead. That is the inputs
> that I refer to. The "B" lead is a high voltage. If the tip of the
> sword makes contact with the floor or the other fencers
> bellguard, "B" grounds low. The inputs would be A=low B=low C=low.
> In other words, you have grounded out your weapon on a non-target.
> If you hit a good target, the tip switch is closed and the "A" line
> comes back high. In other words, A=high B=high C=low. I need one
> stamp to monitor the A,B, and C of each fencer and look for fencers
> that score on-target hits. Will the stamp look at the inputs and
> then based on who wins the hit, turn on scoring lights?
>
> Hope this clarifies some things.
>
> Mark


a THOUSAND BUX for a WIRED unit ? I'll make you FOUR for that kind
of $$$$.


OK, sounds like you have the switch contact stuff all worked out.

A question becomes of how fast the timing can occur and how fast you
need to be.

In the Olympics, there was a ski run where it was declared a tie as
both skiers clocked within 0.001 seconds. The clock people timed the
event to 0.00001 seconds so they (and only they) knew as the Olympic
rules did not allow looking past the 0.001 seconds.

In your case, a comparitor for each person can look at each signal
and determine if it was a good hit or a bad hit. Call this stage 1

then another comparitor can look at those two outputs and see which
is first. call this stage 2

The output of the raw signals and each stage1 would be monitored by
the Stamp. The output of Stage2 would also be monitored.

That way, the good input is only one input and is really the first
good hit.

We could (for the intellectual argument sake) review the speed
difference between strikes if the Stamp were the only sensor. My
take is that if the strike happened just past the program loop, the
first time the program looked at the inputs, it will always show one
before the other. The comparitor will only output one value and that
will be much closer to the first strike. I'm guessing it will be 100
times faster than the software comparitor.

The Stamp would monitor both raw signals and the output of the
comparitors. It would indicate any hit so you can get the good an
bad.

The Stamp could see that output and start it's program from there.

It would then look to see if the signal was an error or a good strike.

I would be interested in the idea of an IR transmitter on the people
and the speed difference of a non-wired system.

Anyway, what you are talking about is a great Stamp project !

Dave

Archiver

--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <davemucha@j...>
wrote:
>
> >
> > That is close to a wireless scoring box. Fencers have wires
> attached
> > to the back of their jackets. The 3conductor wire goes up and
> > through the jacket and exits the at the hand and plugs into the
> > weapon. Both fencers carry an A, B, and C lead. That is the
inputs
> > that I refer to. The "B" lead is a high voltage. If the tip of
the
> > sword makes contact with the floor or the other fencers
> > bellguard, "B" grounds low. The inputs would be A=low B=low
C=low.
> > In other words, you have grounded out your weapon on a non-
target.
> > If you hit a good target, the tip switch is closed and the "A"
line
> > comes back high. In other words, A=high B=high C=low. I need one
> > stamp to monitor the A,B, and C of each fencer and look for
fencers
> > that score on-target hits. Will the stamp look at the inputs and
> > then based on who wins the hit, turn on scoring lights?
> >
> > Hope this clarifies some things.
> >
> > Mark
>
>
> a THOUSAND BUX for a WIRED unit ? I'll make you FOUR for that
kind
> of $$$$.
>
>
> OK, sounds like you have the switch contact stuff all worked out.
>
> A question becomes of how fast the timing can occur and how fast
you
> need to be.
>
> In the Olympics, there was a ski run where it was declared a tie
as
> both skiers clocked within 0.001 seconds. The clock people timed
the
> event to 0.00001 seconds so they (and only they) knew as the
Olympic
> rules did not allow looking past the 0.001 seconds.
>
> In your case, a comparitor for each person can look at each signal
> and determine if it was a good hit or a bad hit. Call this stage 1
>
> then another comparitor can look at those two outputs and see
which
> is first. call this stage 2
>
> The output of the raw signals and each stage1 would be monitored
by
> the Stamp. The output of Stage2 would also be monitored.
>
> That way, the good input is only one input and is really the first
> good hit.
>
> We could (for the intellectual argument sake) review the speed
> difference between strikes if the Stamp were the only sensor. My
> take is that if the strike happened just past the program loop,
the
> first time the program looked at the inputs, it will always show
one
> before the other. The comparitor will only output one value and
that
> will be much closer to the first strike. I'm guessing it will be
100
> times faster than the software comparitor.
>
> The Stamp would monitor both raw signals and the output of the
> comparitors. It would indicate any hit so you can get the good an
> bad.
>
> The Stamp could see that output and start it's program from there.
>
> It would then look to see if the signal was an error or a good
strike.
>
> I would be interested in the idea of an IR transmitter on the
people
> and the speed difference of a non-wired system.
>
> Anyway, what you are talking about is a great Stamp project !
>
> Dave

That is some great strategy on the program. I like all those ideas.
Some more clarification about the timing of the two weapon strikes.
Both fencers can score on any given attack and parry. The trick is
that the second fencer only has 1/20 of a second to switch the
switch on his tip. You would start the counter immediately when the
first fencer switches his switch. I am sure that the stamp is more
than capable of not allowing a hit after 1/20 of a second. That is
the only real timing that is necessary. Usually... the second fencer
is not in a position to parry in the alotted time. And then
sometimes there are some very quick blades. Anyhow, I am looking for
the correct kit to order. Still leaning towards the 24 input/output
stamp. At some point I am sure we will want to get some fancier
types of outputs, so I think the extra outputs will be used.

At some point I will also need to attach some other parts to my box.
I am talking about the scoring lights and test lights and buzzer.
When a score is made, there is an audible alarm and then someones
light turns on to show who scored. Sometimes, if the parry is quick,
both lights will be on. The outputs of the stamp will go high to
turn on a buzzer and then one or both scoring lights. There will
need to be some sort of circuits to turn these 12vdc "taillights"
on. The scoring lights are not small leds, they are larger lights
that can be seen in a tournament. I don't think a stamp will put out
enough current for the lights and buzzer. I am going to build it
using a 12vdc battery. A small, light-weight one, like a lawn
tractor, will be easy to carry and yet add stability and weight to
the box. The box sits at mid-court and needs some presences to keep
it from moving too easily. Imagine something like a tall kitchen
trash can. Heavy at the bottom and some lights on the top. The body
cords from the fencers weapons travel to the back of the courts and
then down the sides and into the box.

Thanks for all the input. It is very much appreciated. I hope that
my ramblings have shed some more light on the subject of Epee
Fencing and what kinda thing scores the dual. LOL.