AC 220V motor control
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Posts: 46,084
I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
Any advise here is appreciated.
I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
couple of 1 wire temp devises.
I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
Lars
Any advise here is appreciated.
I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
couple of 1 wire temp devises.
I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
Lars
Comments
lights (resistive load) -- the solution is probably not going to be
simple. I used to work for a company that manufactured water pumping
stations for the golf course industry. Those stations used a variable
frequency drive that would actually synthesize the AC to the motor so
that it could be speed controllerd.
You may want to try an Internet search on "variable frequency drive" to
see what comes up.
-- Jon Williams
-- Parallax
Original Message
From: lars505050 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=eYijxFhcWl14EUTFU6iB35XOtDdCUexLjBeVGLXQ92F6oi34FueKDmIovQFc2POu6ZwoukRX6sFKYQ]ls@l...[/url
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 10:06 AM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] AC 220V motor control
I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
Any advise here is appreciated.
I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
couple of 1 wire temp devises.
I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
Lars
> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>
> Any advise here is appreciated.
>
> Lars
X10 has an off-the-shelf 220VAC appliance module that should be
perfect for you.
Stephen Weller
American. Veteran. Patriot.
>--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "lars505050" <ls@l...> wrote:
>> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>>
>> Any advise here is appreciated.
>>
>> Lars
>
>X10 has an off-the-shelf 220VAC appliance module that should be
>perfect for you.
>
>Stephen Weller
>American. Veteran. Patriot.
X-10 appliance modules are simple ON or OFF. There is no inherent variable
speed control.
Bruce Bates
drives.
Check your pump, as some do not like to run at lower speeds, or loose their
efficiency at slower speeds. Most turbine, or Impeller pumps have a specified
RPM to run.
Piston type pumps do not have this lower RPM limitation.
You may also consider a Solid State relay to turn the pump off and on.
Install a bypass solenoid from another output controlled by another solid state
relay.
Have the solenoid bypass the heat exchanger and put some water back into the
supply tank. This way you can adjust the volume crudely, but with fluid
thermodynamics nothing is lightning fast. Patience is the key. Monitor the
temp/flow
and vary the cycle of opening and closing the valve to regulate the temp /
flow. Opening and closing the solenoid every second or so may be all it takes.
You can add 2 or more bypass solenoids to make 'Finer' Adjustments
Just an idea.
Alan Bradford
Plasma Technologies
In a message dated 2/28/04 12:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jwilliams@p... writes:
Controlling AC motors (inductive load) is not at all like controlling AC
lights (resistive load) -- the solution is probably not going to be
simple. I used to work for a company that manufactured water pumping
stations for the golf course industry. Those stations used a variable
frequency drive that would actually synthesize the AC to the motor so
that it could be speed controllerd.
You may want to try an Internet search on "variable frequency drive" to
see what comes up.
-- Jon Williams
-- Parallax
Original Message
From: lars505050 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Y-3GDHG_wndjKD1ockMed9uFMAyh7sBKWquJ_ZTaTLB-06UJ35VoqGSOQp3AEauVpaMvWJvu]ls@l...[/url
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 10:06 AM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] AC 220V motor control
I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
Any advise here is appreciated.
I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
couple of 1 wire temp devises.
I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
Lars
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
were.
The radiator fan in most cars has a clutch that's engaged when it wants to
assist in cooling.
The clutch is needed as the shaft is connected with that loop'da'loop belt
and would always be spinning reducing horsepower (don't know if that's
noticable....).
Anyhow, you mentioned about some motors running at specific speeds. So...is
there any sort of clutch solenoid that you could engage on the fly....but
engaging it partially to get "full-on" and "not-so-full-on" speeds..haha
I realize that means a worn clutch at some point....but...just curious.
sb
Original Message
From: <plasmastamp@a...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] AC 220V motor control
> Check www.automationdirect.com For a good source of inexpensive frequency
> drives.
> Check your pump, as some do not like to run at lower speeds, or loose
their
> efficiency at slower speeds. Most turbine, or Impeller pumps have a
specified
> RPM to run.
> Piston type pumps do not have this lower RPM limitation.
>
> You may also consider a Solid State relay to turn the pump off and on.
> Install a bypass solenoid from another output controlled by another solid
state
> relay.
> Have the solenoid bypass the heat exchanger and put some water back into
the
> supply tank. This way you can adjust the volume crudely, but with fluid
> thermodynamics nothing is lightning fast. Patience is the key. Monitor the
temp/flow
> and vary the cycle of opening and closing the valve to regulate the temp /
> flow. Opening and closing the solenoid every second or so may be all it
takes.
> You can add 2 or more bypass solenoids to make 'Finer' Adjustments
> Just an idea.
> Alan Bradford
> Plasma Technologies
>
>
> In a message dated 2/28/04 12:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jwilliams@p... writes:
> Controlling AC motors (inductive load) is not at all like controlling AC
> lights (resistive load) -- the solution is probably not going to be
> simple. I used to work for a company that manufactured water pumping
> stations for the golf course industry. Those stations used a variable
> frequency drive that would actually synthesize the AC to the motor so
> that it could be speed controllerd.
>
> You may want to try an Internet search on "variable frequency drive" to
> see what comes up.
>
> -- Jon Williams
> -- Parallax
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: lars505050 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=SirTxWyDYU9I6PD5a2CZzUEgZkNPL2tnvCjApRZWyAXzRyXcnP85VADbuTOHGfJe1ZrEvMTf1g]ls@l...[/url
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 10:06 AM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] AC 220V motor control
>
>
> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>
> Any advise here is appreciated.
>
> I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
> to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
> heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
>
> The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
> couple of 1 wire temp devises.
>
> I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
>
> Lars
>
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> X-10 appliance modules are simple ON or OFF. There is no inherent
variable speed control.
>
> Bruce Bates
Oops. Correct. I read that, went on, forgot it, and went back to reply.
Take a look on the Leviton website. I *think* theirs does do variable.
Stephen Weller
American. Veteran. Patriot.
linear, that is for sure, but with a controller that might not be
such a big issue. It also a slow process.
I see most answer raising a concern controlling the speed of the
motor, a normal hand drilling machnine has a speed control, a
diac/triac which also should work for this power rating, its only
120 W 0.07HP??. So I don't think a VSD is needed.
The diac/triac is normally controlled with a pot on the power side
so my question is really, how to get the output from the Stamp to
control the charging of the diac circuit.
Lars
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, plasmastamp@a... wrote:
> Check www.automationdirect.com For a good source of inexpensive
frequency
> drives.
> Check your pump, as some do not like to run at lower speeds, or
loose their
> efficiency at slower speeds. Most turbine, or Impeller pumps have
a specified
> RPM to run.
> Piston type pumps do not have this lower RPM limitation.
>
> You may also consider a Solid State relay to turn the pump off and
on.
> Install a bypass solenoid from another output controlled by
another solid state
> relay.
> Have the solenoid bypass the heat exchanger and put some water
back into the
> supply tank. This way you can adjust the volume crudely, but with
fluid
> thermodynamics nothing is lightning fast. Patience is the key.
Monitor the temp/flow
> and vary the cycle of opening and closing the valve to regulate
the temp /
> flow. Opening and closing the solenoid every second or so may be
all it takes.
> You can add 2 or more bypass solenoids to make 'Finer' Adjustments
> Just an idea.
> Alan Bradford
> Plasma Technologies
>
>
> In a message dated 2/28/04 12:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jwilliams@p... writes:
> Controlling AC motors (inductive load) is not at all like
controlling AC
> lights (resistive load) -- the solution is probably not going to be
> simple. I used to work for a company that manufactured water
pumping
> stations for the golf course industry. Those stations used a
variable
> frequency drive that would actually synthesize the AC to the motor
so
> that it could be speed controllerd.
>
> You may want to try an Internet search on "variable frequency
drive" to
> see what comes up.
>
> -- Jon Williams
> -- Parallax
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: lars505050 [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:ls@l...]
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 10:06 AM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] AC 220V motor control
>
>
> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>
> Any advise here is appreciated.
>
> I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed
control
> to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
> heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
>
> The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
> couple of 1 wire temp devises.
>
> I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
>
> Lars
>
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>You raise a good point with regards to the pump curve, it is not
>linear, that is for sure, but with a controller that might not be
>such a big issue. It also a slow process.
>
>I see most answer raising a concern controlling the speed of the
>motor, a normal hand drilling machnine has a speed control, a
>diac/triac which also should work for this power rating, its only
>120 W 0.07HP??. So I don't think a VSD is needed.
>
>The diac/triac is normally controlled with a pot on the power side
>so my question is really, how to get the output from the Stamp to
>control the charging of the diac circuit.
>
>Lars
Lars -
It's getting to the point that more information about the pump motor would be
most helpful. Specifically the exact type of motor being used (how it is wound).
In the case of variable speed drills, many line voltage types use universal
motors. As such, they can operate on AC or DC. Varying the DC voltage is far
more trivial than working with AC voltage. IF you can run your pump with DC, the
technique becomes far simpler.
Regards,
Bruce Bates
appliances and machinery use them. There speed is dependent on line frequency
and not voltage.
Alan Bradford
Plasma Technologies
In a message dated 2/29/2004 5:36:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bvbates@u... writes:
At 10:11 AM 2/29/04 +0000, lars505050 wrote:
>You raise a good point with regards to the pump curve, it is not
>linear, that is for sure, but with a controller that might not be
>such a big issue. It also a slow process.
>
>I see most answer raising a concern controlling the speed of the
>motor, a normal hand drilling machnine has a speed control, a
>diac/triac which also should work for this power rating, its only
>120 W 0.07HP??. So I don't think a VSD is needed.
>
>The diac/triac is normally controlled with a pot on the power side
>so my question is really, how to get the output from the Stamp to
>control the charging of the diac circuit.
>
>Lars
Lars -
It's getting to the point that more information about the pump motor would be
most helpful. Specifically the exact type of motor being used (how it is
wound).
In the case of variable speed drills, many line voltage types use universal
motors. As such, they can operate on AC or DC. Varying the DC voltage is far
more trivial than working with AC voltage. IF you can run your pump with DC, the
technique becomes far simpler.
Regards,
Bruce Bates
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>
> Any advise here is appreciated.
>
> I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
> to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
> heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
>
> The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
> couple of 1 wire temp devises.
>
> I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
>
> Lars
As pointed out earlier, getting variable speed out of a single-
phase AC motor is difficult. Also, for such a small motor, going to a
3 phase motor in order to use a variable frequency drive will be very
expensive.
Two ideas, both of which I have used:
Get a 3-port valve with a propotional operator. The pump runs
all the time and the postion of the valve determines how much flow
goes to heat exchanger and how much is bypassed.
Or, change to a DC motor on the pump. At 120 Watts, even a 24
volt motor can be controlled with the PWM output of the stamp driving
a FET like an IRL520.
I would suggest using one of them or if start up current is too high on the
motor, use one to switch a heavy contacter (relay). This would isolate the
stamp from the ac and give you reliable performance.
jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimforkin2003/
Original Message
From: wun_fungi [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=nICqfEzWUFKy6oZedwBtqDY64U6L5X0TChHE2xPXe6MCKx0jkCpWXUMzyDM90EoaI-Ll9WVgctBIgf3572NoaUOGn0_VhV5X3A]sweller@a...[/url
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 1:07 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: AC 220V motor control
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "lars505050" <ls@l...> wrote:
> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>
> Any advise here is appreciated.
>
> Lars
X10 has an off-the-shelf 220VAC appliance module that should be
perfect for you.
Stephen Weller
American. Veteran. Patriot.
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
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Yahoo! Groups Links
Go to this site:
http://www.united-automation.com/catalogue/index.html
they have all sorts of phase angle controllers.
One that seems interesting is the PAC-2. You can control ot either woth a
pot or with a 0-5V signal, totaly isolated from the mains.
And the best part, www.elfa.se carries them and have datasheets online.
Order no. 72-057-35.
Hope it helps.
/Henrik Olsson. Karlskrona, Sweden.
Original Message
> I've raised this question previously but didn't get any responce.
>
> Any advise here is appreciated.
>
> I have a water circulation pump which needs to have a speed control
> to adjust the water flow. This to get a certain diff temp over a
> heat exchagner. Most of the temp measurement is done.
>
> The motor is a small AC 240V, 120W motor. I using a BS2p and a
> couple of 1 wire temp devises.
>
> I'm thinking about a diac/triac solution.
>
> Lars